THE BLACK HAND FORUM

I agree with Chin's estimates for the Bonannos and Luccheses.

Bonannos are the hardest to gauge for historic membership. We have Joe Bonanno putting them at 300 members at one point and Ray Patriarca estimated them between 200 and 400. Sam DeCavalcante said there were around 260 in late 1964. We have Paul Sciacca telling Magaddino they were at 182 in early 1965 but the senior Bonanno member he's with says around 100. Some other FBI sources put the Bonannos in the 180-200 range which is closer to what I believe.

Did Joe Bonanno exceed the cap when he inducted unsanctioned members? He made as many as ten Canadian members without approval on top of the ten existing members. In the 2000s Sal Vitale said the admin was surprised to learn there were twenty members in Canada as they expected ten, which interestingly is what Magaddino said was the original number approved by the Commission. There were rogue inductions of West Coast members too and possibly others. Based on what we know and can guess, it's possible Bonanno made up to 20 members after the books closed. Sciacca was probably referring to the official size of the Family but the unofficial size might have been around 200 or more.

By the late Massino era they are at 150 to 160 members. Since Families lose membership slots when a made member is killed, I could see them once having 200 official members. The Gambinos look to have had 300 originally and DiLeonardo said their cap was around 260 during his time. He also said the Gambinos stayed close to their cap, around 250 members. He thought the Genovese had a similar cap / size as the Gambinos. Would make sense if the Gambinos and Genovese were 300 members taken down to 260 and the Bonannos were 200 taken down to 160. Using these numbers somewhat loosely.

Colombos and Luccheses are easier -- by all accounts it doesn't look like they ever exceeded 150 members. With the Luccheses hovering around 120 and the Colombos even lower, they may have caps around there at this point. Both Families lost many slots through murder and living CWs.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:47 am

Gustazul wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:08 am I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?

https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp

That was from the DIA in Italy that said it had access to FBI figures.

So presumably those figures are accurate, right? Obviously without considering the associates, which must add up to a lot of numbers for each family.

Gustazul wrote: ↑Tue Apr 18, 2023 8:08 am I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?

https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp

That was from the DIA in Italy that said it had access to FBI figures.

I found this AGI article that shows an estimate of how many members each family had in 2021. I don't know how accurate it is, but none of them exceed 200 members. Do you think these numbers are correct?

https://www.agi.it/cronaca/news/2021-03 ... 767557/amp

I have a feeling the Bonannos are closer to that 150 range as it seems like they're most aggressive in making guys. It also seems like they're the youngest family and bring more sons/nephews into the life.

chin's estimations for the Bonannos and Luccheses sound about right. I would say the Genovese and Gambinos are at around 200 with the Colombos at around 100. That would put it near to Carillo's 800 estimation.

so the Bonnanos are the only NY family that has grown

Bonanno's estimates include Montreal members?

Having looked quite a bit at the Bonanno and Lucchese families in the 2010s, I think it's likely the Bonanno family is still larger in terms of made members. Looking at the 2014 list that JD posted (https://lcnbios.blogspot.com/2018/06/bo ... -2014.html), the Bonanno family were numbered at 130 members. A few of the individuals on that list were deceased, but there were also a considerable amount who were missing. Using that as a cross reference, I put together my own list for the family as of 2015 and totalled them at around 150 (including incarcerated and inactive members).

I've also been working on and off on a chart of the Lucchese family as of early 2017 (based largely on information from John Pennisi) and I have them at 121 members at that point (viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9218&start=45).

We know dozens of members have died since then, but both families have also continued to hold regular induction ceremonies.

My best estimate today for total membership for both families would be:

Bonanno - 130-150
Lucchese - about 120

Special agent John Carillo testified at the Cammarano trial that he estimates there to be over 800 made members and that the Bonannos are third out of the five in terms of size.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 9:10 am There are a lot of estimates but they're not all created equally. I give the most weight to those of the FBI, including those where it's an actual counted list, i.e. not a general, rounded figure.

For the Genovese family, during the 1980s, three FBI reports put it between 193 and 201 members. More recently, a 2021 article citing the DIA in Italy (which claimed to have had access to recent FBI figures) put the Genovese family at 175 members.

For the Gambino family, during the 1980's, the same three FBI reports put it between 182 and 207 members. A case involving Joe Isgro in 2000 cited 192 members. The 2021 DIA-sourced article cited 165 members.

Incidentally, also more recently a former prosecutor put both the Genovese and Gambino families at around 150 members. While that appears to be one of those general, rounded estimates, it does seem the days of either family being at 200+ members is gone.

For the Lucchese family, the FBI reports in the 1980's ranged from 102 to 117 members. The 2021 DIA article cited 121 members, which was a little surprising.

For the Colombo family, the FBI reports in the 1980's ranged from 87 to 110 members. The 2021 DIA article put the family at 90 members.

For the Bonanno family, the FBI reports in the 1980s ranged from 92 to 112 members. The 2001 no-contact list for Robert Lino had 111 listed members (including Lino). The 2021 DIA article had 132 members.

Combined, you're likely looking at somewhere between 600-700 total members in NY today. Which is about 80% of remaining LCN membership in the U.S.

I think your #s are most accurate

The Bonannos have a bunch of younger hot heads with small loan sharking, gambling, drugs rackets running around Staten Island the last 10 years. They are definitely the most violent too IMO

There are a lot of estimates but they're not all created equally. I give the most weight to those of the FBI, including those where it's an actual counted list, i.e. not a general, rounded figure.

For the Genovese family, during the 1980s, three FBI reports put it between 193 and 201 members. More recently, a 2021 article citing the DIA in Italy (which claimed to have had access to recent FBI figures) put the Genovese family at 175 members.

For the Gambino family, during the 1980's, the same three FBI reports put it between 182 and 207 members. A case involving Joe Isgro in 2000 cited 192 members. The 2021 DIA-sourced article cited 165 members.

Incidentally, also more recently a former prosecutor put both the Genovese and Gambino families at around 150 members. While that appears to be one of those general, rounded estimates, it does seem the days of either family being at 200+ members is gone.

For the Lucchese family, the FBI reports in the 1980's ranged from 102 to 117 members. The 2021 DIA article cited 121 members, which was a little surprising.

For the Colombo family, the FBI reports in the 1980's ranged from 87 to 110 members. The 2021 DIA article put the family at 90 members.

For the Bonanno family, the FBI reports in the 1980s ranged from 92 to 112 members. The 2001 no-contact list for Robert Lino had 111 listed members (including Lino). The 2021 DIA article had 132 members.

Combined, you're likely looking at somewhere between 600-700 total members in NY today. Which is about 80% of remaining LCN membership in the U.S.

Bonanno definitely said the Gambinos under Mineo were the largest. Most sources say the Gambinos were the biggest spanning decades even though some overestimate their size. DiLeonardo said during his time the Gambinos and Genovese had similar sizes/caps, in the 250 - 260 range and the Families could and did always find people to make. I suspect they both had caps around 300 earlier on and this diminished due to slots lost by member murders -- Pussy Russo said the Genovese had 300 members in the 1960s who would be replaced by 300 men waiting in the wings which roughly indicates that was their cap at the time. The Gambinos may have been bigger at times or were perceived as bigger because we know in both the 1950s and 80s they were more eager to fill their slots than the Genovese.

Otherwise knowledgeable sources often overestimate the size of Families rather than the reverse which is why we see Gambinos estimated at 1000 members, Chicago estimated at a NYC type size, Valachi's estimates tending to be higher etc. Scarpa initially overestimated the Colombos but when he was told the actual number by Joe Colombo it appears much more accurate and fits our understanding.

The biggest mystery to me is when/why certain NYC Families agreed to a smaller membership than others. We know from many sources / wiretaps though that a larger membership wasn't necessarily seen as an asset but a liability given the mafia derives its status from exclusivity and a need for made members to have set themselves apart as a different class of person. We also know that even though large membership brings in more power, wealth, and measurable presence it doesn't negate a boss's or Family's respect and authority in national politics and that the virtues of a larger Family also bring with them more factionalism and weakened membership standards. Even though the Colombos were one of if not the smallest Families in NYC we have Joe Colombo telling Scarpa they were still too big and should be more like Chicago which he said had around 50 members (same number given by Ray DeCarlo).

What's interesting is that despite large Families deriving a lot of power and influence from their size, it doesn't directly translate to sheer strength in times of war. The Gagliano faction was only a small element of the Lucchese Family before Pinzolo died and Maranzano's group likely didn't compare to the Gambinos and Genovese yet this rebel alliance went to war with the two largest Families and won. This is likely because mafia wars don't involve the entire membership or even associate base being sent out to the battlefield but rather select hit teams committing strategic murders and politics playing a huge role in how things develop. Even outside of warfare it doesn't necessarily matter how big a Family is when there's a sitdown as a single member can present a convincing argument or utilize his relationships to get a favorable outcome and sitdowns aren't won by bullying a smaller Family with "my crew is bigger than yours."

As for why NYC ended up with such large Families compared to Sicily and most of the US, NYC becoming the primary immigration port in 1898 and this continuing through the 1920s was probably the biggest factor. You had many existing mafiosi settling in NYC plus there were not only young men who were already "connected" but also countless new relationships being formed in a massive city. Immigrants to NYC also tended to stay there permanently. We have no idea what New Orleans looked like in terms of size when they were the main immigration port but even if there were large numbers of members there pre-1900s a lot of them didn't necessarily stay. We see this to some degree in other cities too.

Other cities too tended to have only specific compaesani groups settling there and derived their membership through them. In NYC you had most of the major mafia regions represented, especially Palermo, Trapani, and Agrigento and even Caltanissetta / Enna to some degree (though far fewer) who then co-mingled with mainlanders some of which had their own underworld societies while others were at least amenable to the mafia mindset. NYC was pulling members / recruits from most Sicilian Families and underworld tradition whereas Tampa was only pulling from maybe a few Sicilian comuni with some exceptions. Tampa's colony was mostly Sicilian and limited to a few Agrigento comuni whereas NYC was diverse both in terms of Italian identity and Western Sicilian colonies and when you compare the Gambinos and Trafficantes (who were close) you see the Gambinos were made up not only of Agrigentini but also Palermo citta, Palermo province, other parts of Western Sicily as well as Eastern Sicily and the mainland while Tampa basically was just a branch of one small region in Sicily.

As for why members were often mistaken about an NYC Family's size, you have to figure that was need to know info and not relevant to rank and file members so their understanding was more based on perception and gossip than hard facts. A member in San Fran would have a better grasp of his Family's size because they could all be in the same room together and often were. I push back on the idea (which used to be more common on the boards) that the NYC Families were all massively larger earlier in their history and gradually diminished. I don't know what to say about current estimates as the FBI has always struggled to identify the full membership of a given Family and the estimates they've given in their press releases don't always match the confirmed membership lists we've compiled nor do we have the full context behind these estimates or the formula used to make them. While I do think the mafia struggles today to find people who meet their traditional standards, the "shrinking recruitment pool" argument has been published countless times and I think it's less scientific than some make it out to be.

The Feds also had them at 192 members in 2000. More recent estimates have them at less than 200 now. By my count they have lost at least 159 or 160 members since 1998.


Pogo

Angelo Santino wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:27 am

Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:58 am

Angelo Santino wrote: ↑Tue Mar 28, 2023 6:12 am Today the estimates are
Gambino- 260
Genovese- 300
Colombo- 150
Lucchese- 200
Bonanno- 200
(There are others

here who probably know the exact numbers)
which is about 1100 members in total.

Current estimates.


Genovese - About 200. Probably less today.
Gambino - Less than 200
Bonanno - 130s range.
Lucchese - Over 110. Probably less than 130
Colombo - About 100. Probably a lot less today.

Bonanno cited Masseria's family as the largest New York Family so there's a precedent for that at least going back to 1928.

He said Masseria was the strongest but that in terms of size Mineo was the biggest in the city.


Pogo

So today's estimates are mid 700's? I thought the Gams were capped at 260ish as per DiLeonardo, granted this was 20 years but hard to imagine they lost 60 slots in two decades.

Joe cited Mineo-Gambino as the largest? I stand corrected and it would make the most sense.

In the Danny Marino 2011 indictment the FBI said he was a boss of st least 200 made members,