by PolackTony » Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:23 am
thekiduknow wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 11:13 am
PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:26 am
I've seen it stated before that members in Sicily are introduced to each other as "stessa cosa", but I think this is the first time that I've seen it documented where it was being used within US families like that. Not that it should be surprising, of course, but still always enjoy seeing documented examples of how guys actually used terms related to the organization.
I just looked in "Last Days of the Sicilians", and I got it mixed up. You're right in that it was Sicilians members who used that term, rather than Sicilian and American members using that term to introduce each other.
"Stessa Cosa" doesn't seem that different from "Cosa Nostra", both being used to refer to something that is nameless but understood among the members.
PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Sep 30, 2022 10:26 am
A more recent example that could be pointing to the same concept (members of the mafia are all "the same thing") could have come up in the 2005 recordings of Chicago member Rudy Fratto. When a guy who was having trouble with forklift contracts with some guys from Cleveland went to Fratto for help, Fratto told the guy to go back to Cleveland and tell the people he was having trouble with that he knew Fratto, and to tell them Fratto was "the same thing" as a redacted name in Cleveland (my guess would be Joe Loose Iacobacci). Not a formal introduction to other members, of course, but still perhaps a window into how members from different families saw each other.
I'm interested to know if the guy who was sent to Cleveland was a member or not. If he wasn't, I wonder if it was an intentional to use "Same Thing" rather than "Cosa Nostra"/"Our Thing". "Same thing" in this context seems like it could be used by an outside member, "I'm with Fratto, who is the same thing as you", vs "I'm with Fratto in cosa nostra/our thing". I could also be overthinking it.
I agree, its fascinating to see the different terms used to refer to something that is, again, essentially nameless.
Yeah, “stessa cosa” and “cosa nostra” are basically invoking the same underlying concept; we are all part of this same nameless “thing”. “Cosa nostra”, which almost certainly started as a causal, euphemistic expression, over time became sort of fixed as a formal title (presumably in an interesting back and forth dialogue between members and outsiders in LE and the media; a similar process happened with “outfit” in Chicago).
Haven’t looked at the transcript for the Fratto thing recently. The guy in question was not a mafia member, but it’s still interesting as an example of how things are handled when a guy who is not a member appeals to a mafia member for interdiction in a problem. Fratto told him to go back to Cleveland and tell the guys there who were giving this guy problems that Fratto was the “same” as someone who they’d presumably both know and understand the status of. In the same conversation, Fratto also told this guy that he was the “boss” of Elmwood Park.
[quote=thekiduknow post_id=239979 time=1664561636 user_id=5752]
[quote=PolackTony post_id=239967 time=1664558793 user_id=6658]
I've seen it stated before that members in Sicily are introduced to each other as "stessa cosa", but I think this is the first time that I've seen it documented where it was being used within US families like that. Not that it should be surprising, of course, but still always enjoy seeing documented examples of how guys actually used terms related to the organization.
[/quote]
I just looked in "Last Days of the Sicilians", and I got it mixed up. You're right in that it was Sicilians members who used that term, rather than Sicilian and American members using that term to introduce each other.
"Stessa Cosa" doesn't seem that different from "Cosa Nostra", both being used to refer to something that is nameless but understood among the members.
[quote=PolackTony post_id=239967 time=1664558793 user_id=6658]
A more recent example that could be pointing to the same concept (members of the mafia are all "the same thing") could have come up in the 2005 recordings of Chicago member Rudy Fratto. When a guy who was having trouble with forklift contracts with some guys from Cleveland went to Fratto for help, Fratto told the guy to go back to Cleveland and tell the people he was having trouble with that he knew Fratto, and to tell them Fratto was "the same thing" as a redacted name in Cleveland (my guess would be Joe Loose Iacobacci). Not a formal introduction to other members, of course, but still perhaps a window into how members from different families saw each other.
[/quote]
I'm interested to know if the guy who was sent to Cleveland was a member or not. If he wasn't, I wonder if it was an intentional to use "Same Thing" rather than "Cosa Nostra"/"Our Thing". "Same thing" in this context seems like it could be used by an outside member, "I'm with Fratto, who is the same thing as you", vs "I'm with Fratto in cosa nostra/our thing". I could also be overthinking it.
I agree, its fascinating to see the different terms used to refer to something that is, again, essentially nameless.
[/quote]
Yeah, “stessa cosa” and “cosa nostra” are basically invoking the same underlying concept; we are all part of this same nameless “thing”. “Cosa nostra”, which almost certainly started as a causal, euphemistic expression, over time became sort of fixed as a formal title (presumably in an interesting back and forth dialogue between members and outsiders in LE and the media; a similar process happened with “outfit” in Chicago).
Haven’t looked at the transcript for the Fratto thing recently. The guy in question was not a mafia member, but it’s still interesting as an example of how things are handled when a guy who is not a member appeals to a mafia member for interdiction in a problem. Fratto told him to go back to Cleveland and tell the guys there who were giving this guy problems that Fratto was the “same” as someone who they’d presumably both know and understand the status of. In the same conversation, Fratto also told this guy that he was the “boss” of Elmwood Park.