THE BLACK HAND FORUM

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:44 am Could be right. I've never seen the Gambino info substantiated.

Pesci grew up with Bobby Cabert...

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 6:03 am

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:02 am In Chicago there were for sure cops / ex-cops who could be considered top associates.

In most cases I'd consider corrupt cops fringe players at best unless they're relatives. Kind of their own special category, ranging from guys with no connections who just accept payoffs to guys who are full-on associates. That NJ cop Policastro was so close to the Bonannos he was misidentified as a member.

With the mafia cops, Eppolito was from an entire family of Gambino members so he was raised in it long before he was a cop. Hard to place guys like them though because they were obviously associated with the mob and what they did with Casso was huge but they did it for money and weren't really affiliated, at least not with the Luccheses.

Question though -- how do you sit down for a cop? Even if he's trusted it's wild to imagine a made guy sitting down to settle an issue and saying "on behalf of my cop friend...". They're not allowed to make cops, so I wonder if they can officially put them on record or if it's just general association.

How did Previte get in?

Ability to earn/greed

In terms of personal “associates” who are friends/partners with a high-ranking member, we can look at the example of Tony Accardo’s trip to Italy in 1973. Accardo was accompanied by personal friends who were also successful businessmen in Chicago: Nick Nitti (who owned the travel agency, along with Accardo’s son, that presumably booked the arrangements for this trip), restauranteur Al Meo, and wealthy grocery store owner Rosario Marino (originally from Cefalu). Their wives all came along, we can assume that a major element here was purely social. They may have also did some business in Italy, but it’s not like these guys went there to set up narcotics or contraband trafficking rings or something; most likely, they may have met with some people who were interested in having some Ital-American business people invest in local ventures or the like. The FBI seemed to think so, as following the trip, they interviewed wealthy Chicago wine importer Antonino Paternò (from Vizzini, Catania) afterwards concerning his connections to Accardo and allegations from Italian police that Paternò’s wine suppliers in Tuscany and Sicily were controlled by the mafia (the Feds stated that Paternò at the time was the largest wine importer in the US); Italian LE had informed the FBI that Accardo’s itinerary had included Tuscany, so maybe he visited one of those suppliers.

Now, apart from Nitti (who was basically the “family” travel agent for the Outfit), these other guys are personal friends, associates, and business partners of Accardo. They presumably don’t belong anywhere near a chart of formal “LCN associates”, but these guys were most certainly “with” Accardo. As such, they would’ve received significant benefits in terms of protection and clout (if someone needed to grease the wheels of power at the city, county, state level, they would’ve had access to those channels. This sort of thing was not a minor benefit at all). In turn, sure, they were useful to Accardo, but not like these guys were being forced to stash guns in their house or run a wire room in their basement or something. It wouldn’t have been anything like Tony Soprano and his guys coming in like a horde of locusts. If Accardo needed these guys to perform a favor, in a situation where they could be helpful, I’m sure they’d be asked to do so and expected to comply, when reasonable. But I doubt that they were being bullied or strong armed. If they were involved in any criminal/grey area activity with Accardo, presumably it was business racketeering stuff, and maybe investing or partnering with Accardo on some import stuff in Italy with shady mafia-connected companies. You know, classy shit.

TallGuy19 wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:04 pm Former bookmaker talks about becoming an associate of the Outfit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_HCzvo_s8NQ&t=3317s

Thanks for posting.

“The Skokie Swift to the Howard ‘L’”. That’s how you know this guy is old school, none of that color shit.

Murges seems to be a good example of a guy who was an associate of an associate, as opposed to an “on record” associate under a made guy or LCN crew. This guy was working with guys like LaValley and Nick Gio, who were under Lenny Patrick, who was himself an associate. I’m not sure who was running the warehouse book operation Murges was working at on Fulton St, I’d wonder if those guys answered to Angelini and Cortina. Murges said that he knew who Joe Spa was via his father, but his story was about bumping into him in a bar the night before he was going to prison, so it doesn’t seem like the book operation was answering to him (if so, either Murges wasn’t aware or he decided not to mention it). No other made guys enter into his account.

Gotta love when Murges recommends the fantasy-fiction novel “War of The Godfathers” as shedding light on the differences between New York and Chicago.

Former bookmaker talks about becoming an associate of the Outfit.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_HCzvo_s8NQ&t=3317s

His great-uncle Domenico Minnelli was Vice-Chancellor of the Palermo Gran Corte Civile. If there's a relationship to the Profaci crowd I'd guess it goes back to Palermo.

The informant who mentioned Minnelli as a Profaci member was ID'd by Ed as Louis Ferrini.

B. wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 3:36 pm Another celebrity I'm curious about is Vincent Minnelli. A Colombo associate told the FBI Minnelli was a made member in the Colombos which we can discount, but he was Palermitan and his grandfather + great-uncle participated in the 1848 revolution (as did many mafiosi) so maybe there was a deeper connection that placed him "with" Profaci's Family.

If there's any truth to him being with the Colombos he'd be a very valuable associate to have regardless of his reputation.

Another thing that could also possibly link him to Profaci is that Vincent Minnelli was born in Chicago, though I don’t see any reason to think that him or his father had any connections to the mafia there (you probably already know this, but his mother was not Italian).

Interesting story about Stuey Ungar, a professional card player who went on record with Genovese soldier Victor Romano:

https://nymag.com/nymetro/news/people/features/914/

There’s a good section in Blood & Honor where Caramandi talks about associates. He says that he’d put guys on record with him either because they were useful, made money, or even if they just liked the guy and wanted to look out for him. That last one sounds a little too romanticized, as I imagine they’d expect favors from a guy like that. Caramandi basically said there’d be guys who would never commit a crime but they’d store weapons and shit like that in their house for mob guys. In turn I’d expect the mob guys would “look out” for them. I remember Caramandi also said it didn’t matter if a guy associated with a member if he wasn’t put on record with that member’s captain.

It's like Gravano's story about his father's dress factory. He says his father wasn't in the life, but when union thugs bothered him he wasn't worried and immediately went to his compare "Zu Vito" (Sammy has implied they came from the same hometown) who cleared up the problem. Gerlando Gravano was "with" Zu Vito and technically an associate whose dress factory was protected by a made member. He was benefiting from this connection by avoiding union trouble. If Zu Vito had a relative who needed a job, not hard to imagine Gravano could assist with that.

I think Sammy's telling the truth that his father avoided the life but it shows how ingrained the mafia was among immigrants from mafia strongholds, where even a legitimate guy like Gerlando Gravano was on record with someone and could go to him. This isn't exceptional, it was the norm where they were from in Sicily and in the NYC neighborhoods they lived in.

On paper Gerlando Gravano was probably a Gambino associate (if Zu Vito was from Porto Empedocle and lived in Brooklyn he almost certainly was a Gambino) and his son and son-in-law both went on to be Gambino members, but it's not that simple and shows how mafia association is more nuanced than criminals kicking up money to a certain member.

Cross-posting this from one of the Chicago threads, as I think it’s a good example of the complexity of what could be considered an “mafia associate”, following B’s definition of anyone who is not a member but who can be represented within the mafia system. According to the Gentile brothers, their grandfather was basically with Vincenzo Benevento. In turn, their father was with Skippy Cerone. Neither seem to have been active criminal associates, and they weren’t part of any crew. They were guys from the neighborhood who had close personal connections to members, who were useful to the Outfit and did them favors and, in turn, received benefits in terms of protection and access to clout (the engine that makes Chicago turn, of course). As one of the sons says, their father had “lots of friends”, but he “wasn’t on one of those charts”. Many such cases as this with any LCN family, and these people formed the extended networks through which the mob exerted its influence within the community.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:57 pm Has anyone ever checked out the Gentile brothers' book? I've seen it on Amazon, but haven't read it yet. I wasn't aware that these guys grew up in the Grand Ave Patch, so at least for that, I want to check it out. Looks like they have a story about their family coming under the protection of Vincenzo Benevento back in the day (which also goes back to the current "what is an associate?" thread). Worth listening to their interview here:

https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertai ... story.html

Another celebrity I'm curious about is Vincent Minnelli. A Colombo associate told the FBI Minnelli was a made member in the Colombos which we can discount, but he was Palermitan and his grandfather + great-uncle participated in the 1848 revolution (as did many mafiosi) so maybe there was a deeper connection that placed him "with" Profaci's Family.

If there's any truth to him being with the Colombos he'd be a very valuable associate to have regardless of his reputation.

Yeah, I was going to bring Blavat up earlier. Local celebrity who wasn't powerful in an underworld sense but direct with the admin under multiple bosses and a very useful associate. His father was a Jewish gangster.

Sal Avena too. Son of a former boss, lawyer and confidant to multiple bosses, treated like an insider. He's another one who supposedly asked to be made.

Lines up with Jerry Blavat being on record with Bruno then Testa then Scarfo

That's what it says in D'Arco's book. Looks like Young may have been direct with Corallo and then Amuso if that's the case.