by Angelo Santino » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:23 pm
B. wrote:I was doing some reading this morning, and this must have come from Nick Gentile, but the source claimed that the six member Commission (what we know now as the same Commission that was busted in the mid-1980s) was proposed immediately following Masseria's death but Maranzano raised a fuss and instead they opted to promote him to boss of bosses. When he was killed, they revisited the idea and put the previously discussed Commission into place.
My take away too.
B. wrote:What I also didn't know/realize is that despite being Maranzano's chief ally and one of his spies in the Mineo family, Scalise had turned on Maranzano and was instrumental in Maranzano's downfall. It sounds like Scalise was not deposed as boss for his loyalty to Maranzano after all. Maybe some of you were aware of that but I must have missed it before.
Same takeaway. But being moderate about it: Gentile is one source told from a rival faction Bonanno is another source as a Maranzano underling. They are sources and we can argue their validity, but beyond that I would not, neither would you most likely, feel comfortable standing by this or that as more information becomes available and things we thought true in 2000 were obsolete by 2010 and so forth. There is always more info to be ganined. Sometimes from new sources, other times a reevaluation of primary sources (my takeaway may be totally different from yours.) We as researchers, put aside our egos and go for the "truth." We as educators need to be able to source shit.
B. wrote:Another interesting thing is the FBI's notes on the 1928 Cleveland meeting. They clearly acknowledge that the post-1931 "cosa nostra" is identical with "l'onorata societa". Doesn't appear the FBI (or at least certain well-informed parts of it) believed in the 1931 creation myth.
Things were altered from the top, but for the day to day: "there was a war and then one day there wasn't" and that's a quote. No one was pulled aside and told: "Okay, all the old Mustaches are dead, we are forming a new National Crime Syndicate and we will call it Cosa Nostra and carry on with the initiation ceremony. From now on, Italians not from Sicily will be admitted. There'll be a boss, underboss, consig, capidecina and soldati. Now everyone line up to find out your place in this thing of ours." This didn't happen. There were periods of integration (my next project which I'm going to be vague on) but by 1931, there was a mafia, it had ranks, what changed is it's infusion of mainlanders. But similar to the legalization of gay marriage and how the "gay movement" existed long prior to 2013, the same was such as A) non-Sicilians being admitted into the mafia, B) a national governing body and C) the mafiosi as an individual is required to bring in capital as opposed to serving as a labor force for a captain, although that has occurred and much more so in the 70's.
B. wrote:Random other bits I found interesting...
- One source says that the organization included Sicilians, Calabrians, and Neapolitans, and only later did it allow Italians from other provinces.
From what I found, the mafia graduated from Sicilian to Italian as the general society did, perhaps slower than the general Italian pop. But the 1920's with bootlegging was a gamechanger. It turned scrapping and scraping down on their luck Italo-gangsters into millionaires. What does the Mafia bring in? Established local criminal entrepreneurs, family and loyal associates. The criminal element of Sicilians (Mafia) flowed with the mainstream Italian society and survived because they adjusted to the new world. Had they kept it Sicilian-only the Genoveses and, arguably, the Luccheses would have died out like the Quakers and eventually so would have the other 3. Or at the very least, be at 1/4 of their power and influence, same with Philly.
B. wrote:- A source says that members in America who travel to Sicily cannot be automatically accepted into local organizations (i.e. with written letters and recommendations), but CAN be accepted if they prove themselves to the local organization.
True again, but what time period are we speaking of? Based off Gentile and his recollection of events, members in America and Sicily were recognized on an ad hoc basis. Letters of recommendation has to be sent (Back then, the Mafia DID write things down to be mailed!) for one member to be validated from one city to another. If someone moved from NY to Buffalo and said he was So&So and knew Benny Gallo personally, whoever was who in Buffalo at the time would have contacted through emissary or mail to Nick Schiro to ask Benny Gallo to confirm So&So as Member. if the ok came back, he was accepted, if not then no. It was based on a boss'/reppresentante's decision. We know that in 1908, Morello refused to recognize someone from Corleone who had made a name for himself in New Orleans and wished to be recognized in Chicago, Morello refused to validate him, reason being no one who was anyone (the letter was signed "All of Corleone" members who did not know this individual but only knew of his background was that he came from "a good family" which at the time (1900's) would have been a term for law abiding family and not a code-word for mafia family.
After 1931. things stabilized and Italian migration settled except for Ohio River Valley Italo-Americans relocating to California which occurred from the 1910's to the 1960's and beyond. We know that relatives followed relatives but that early one, it appears to have been a question of economics. But that makes sense as the Mafiosi as an individual person is out to make a living.
[quote="B."]I was doing some reading this morning, and this must have come from Nick Gentile, but the source claimed that the six member Commission (what we know now as the same Commission that was busted in the mid-1980s) was proposed immediately following Masseria's death but Maranzano raised a fuss and instead they opted to promote him to boss of bosses. When he was killed, they revisited the idea and put the previously discussed Commission into place.[/quote]
My take away too.
[quote="B."]What I also didn't know/realize is that despite being Maranzano's chief ally and one of his spies in the Mineo family, Scalise had turned on Maranzano and was instrumental in Maranzano's downfall. It sounds like Scalise was not deposed as boss for his loyalty to Maranzano after all. Maybe some of you were aware of that but I must have missed it before.[/quote]
Same takeaway. But being moderate about it: Gentile is one source told from a rival faction Bonanno is another source as a Maranzano underling. They are sources and we can argue their validity, but beyond that I would not, neither would you most likely, feel comfortable standing by this or that as more information becomes available and things we thought true in 2000 were obsolete by 2010 and so forth. There is always more info to be ganined. Sometimes from new sources, other times a reevaluation of primary sources (my takeaway may be totally different from yours.) We as researchers, put aside our egos and go for the "truth." We as educators need to be able to source shit.
[quote="B."]Another interesting thing is the FBI's notes on the 1928 Cleveland meeting. They clearly acknowledge that the post-1931 "cosa nostra" is identical with "l'onorata societa". Doesn't appear the FBI (or at least certain well-informed parts of it) believed in the 1931 creation myth.[/quote]
Things were altered from the top, but for the day to day: "there was a war and then one day there wasn't" and that's a quote. No one was pulled aside and told: "Okay, all the old Mustaches are dead, we are forming a new National Crime Syndicate and we will call it Cosa Nostra and carry on with the initiation ceremony. From now on, Italians not from Sicily will be admitted. There'll be a boss, underboss, consig, capidecina and soldati. Now everyone line up to find out your place in this thing of ours." This didn't happen. There were periods of integration (my next project which I'm going to be vague on) but by 1931, there was a mafia, it had ranks, what changed is it's infusion of mainlanders. But similar to the legalization of gay marriage and how the "gay movement" existed long prior to 2013, the same was such as A) non-Sicilians being admitted into the mafia, B) a national governing body and C) the mafiosi as an individual is required to bring in capital as opposed to serving as a labor force for a captain, although that has occurred and much more so in the 70's.
[quote="B."]Random other bits I found interesting...
- One source says that the organization included Sicilians, Calabrians, and Neapolitans, and only later did it allow Italians from other provinces.[/quote]
From what I found, the mafia graduated from Sicilian to Italian as the general society did, perhaps slower than the general Italian pop. But the 1920's with bootlegging was a gamechanger. It turned scrapping and scraping down on their luck Italo-gangsters into millionaires. What does the Mafia bring in? Established local criminal entrepreneurs, family and loyal associates. The criminal element of Sicilians (Mafia) flowed with the mainstream Italian society and survived because they adjusted to the new world. Had they kept it Sicilian-only the Genoveses and, arguably, the Luccheses would have died out like the Quakers and eventually so would have the other 3. Or at the very least, be at 1/4 of their power and influence, same with Philly.
[quote="B."]- A source says that members in America who travel to Sicily cannot be automatically accepted into local organizations (i.e. with written letters and recommendations), but CAN be accepted if they prove themselves to the local organization.[/quote]
True again, but what time period are we speaking of? Based off Gentile and his recollection of events, members in America and Sicily were recognized on an ad hoc basis. Letters of recommendation has to be sent (Back then, the Mafia DID write things down to be mailed!) for one member to be validated from one city to another. If someone moved from NY to Buffalo and said he was So&So and knew Benny Gallo personally, whoever was who in Buffalo at the time would have contacted through emissary or mail to Nick Schiro to ask Benny Gallo to confirm So&So as Member. if the ok came back, he was accepted, if not then no. It was based on a boss'/reppresentante's decision. We know that in 1908, Morello refused to recognize someone from Corleone who had made a name for himself in New Orleans and wished to be recognized in Chicago, Morello refused to validate him, reason being no one who was anyone (the letter was signed "All of Corleone" members who did not know this individual but only knew of his background was that he came from "a good family" which at the time (1900's) would have been a term for law abiding family and not a code-word for mafia family.
After 1931. things stabilized and Italian migration settled except for Ohio River Valley Italo-Americans relocating to California which occurred from the 1910's to the 1960's and beyond. We know that relatives followed relatives but that early one, it appears to have been a question of economics. But that makes sense as the Mafiosi as an individual person is out to make a living.