THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by **scagghiuni** » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:03 am

Ivan wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 8:59 am
JakeTheSnake630 wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 6:51 am Didn't Todaro up in Buffalo allegedly reach out to the commission when he promoted the new UB? Obviously its not what it was, and I bet they never ever will all sit in the same room as bosses, but I think the it still technically exists
The impression I get is that the formal Commission is pretty much gone but people still informally refer to inter-family coordination between bosses as "the Commission."

it's the same in Sicily, the last formal Commission meeting was in 1993, but there is an inter-family coordination between bosses or meetings with only 4/5 bosses and not the entire body. There have even been a couple of attempts to reinstate it

by **nizarsoccer** » Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:35 pm

Not to bring back up old topics - but I thought this was relevant for this thread. I recently got a batch of documents back and one FBI affidavit cited an informant who had access to Victor J. Orena and while in the car with him, he overhead him talk about labor racketeering and "commission meetings". An Acting Boss also thought that the Commission still existed and functioned, but of course he didn't have pre-1985 context.

by **Ivan** » Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:35 pm

do you even commission bro

by **meat-ball** » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:37 pm

Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:54 pm I think the title says it all. The current state of La Cosa Nostra in the US is probably on the brink of collapse. The feds have hit them so hard it's ridiculous. Street gangs out number them.

Snipe away my friends.

There’s a great post recently that outlines Sal Vitale’s testimony and he testified bringing massino and/or attending commission meetings in the early 2000’s right up until he defects. My guess is there are, simply out of necessity but only as needed and probably go to great pains to hide the fact. That’s only speculation though.

by **meat-ball** » Tue Aug 02, 2022 5:30 pm

Newyorkempire wrote: ↑Mon May 16, 2022 5:20 am
Uforeality wrote: ↑Sun May 15, 2022 11:54 pm I think the title says it all. The current state of La Cosa Nostra in the US is probably on the brink of collapse. The feds have hit them so hard it's ridiculous. Street gangs out number them.

Snipe away my friends.
Brink of collapse? Lol what.

Yea I mean it’s not what it was 30 years ago but swear to god, read old articles from the 70-80’s and you get the same exact quotes, ‘mob is on the verge of collapse’, ‘not what it used to be’ etc etc. Now in hindsight, that was the high watermark in terms of power (so to speak).

by **stubbs** » Tue May 31, 2022 10:40 pm

It’s entirely possible there’s no longer any formal meetings where all of the bosses meet in one place, but the families still being able to send messages back to one another to make decisions and come to agreements.

So Violi claiming the commission approved him doesn’t necessarily mean Todaro reached out to the Westside, leading to Barney sitting down in person at one location with the other bosses to approve the new underboss in Buffalo.

Instead, I’m sure Todaro reached out to a connection with the Westside, who got word to Barney. Then, Barney uses intermediaries to pass word along to each of the other five families. Then, the messengers send word back that they approve of Violi’s promotion. Hence, Todaro now has “the commission’s approval” of his new underboss.

My take is that Massino was saying that there hasn’t been any formal, in-person meetings of the bosses since ‘85. Especially not after the commission trial that was happening at the time. Yet, when he says the commission approved him as the new boss in ‘91, word may have simply been passed around to the other four families, who then gave their approval.

by B. » Sun May 29, 2022 10:19 pm

Great to know. Sounds like the bosses agreed to use that hand signal.

by **MightyDR** » Sun May 29, 2022 10:12 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:44 pm Asked DiLeonardo about the Commission during his time. He drove Gotti to meetings where he signaled with his hand the letter "C" to mean it was a high-level meeting with the leaders of the other Families, i.e. Commission. He said the Families had certain representatives attend, but wasn't clear if it was still the "official" Commission or sort of a defacto one like we've been speculating.

He mentioned Chin being off the street being a factor. Also said something along the lines of Massino being in a better position to know than others when I mentioned his take.

Hopefully I'm conveying what he said properly but it def wasn't black and white. Either way it's clear Gotti still saw those meetings as something like a Commission meeting hence using the "C" hand signal.

Thanks for reaching out to DiLeonardo about that B. Great info. According to D'Arco, Amuso gave the "C" sign with his hand to indicate he was going to a Commission meeting too.

by B. » Sat May 28, 2022 10:18 pm

Another story from Michael that sort of relates...

- After the Colombo War in the late 1990s when Pete Gotti was acting boss he attended a meeting with Colombo leaders where he was asked for his position on whether the Gambinos still recognized Carmine Persico as official boss.

- Afterward DiLeonardo asked Gotti what he told them his position was. Gotti replied "Position? I told them we've got no position". Michael was bothered by this noncommital approach and told Gotti he needs to take a position on it.

- DiLeonardo arranged for another meeting between Gotti and the Colombo leadership, including Allie Persico. At the meeting Gotti asked DiLeonardo to sit with them while they discussed the matter but DiLeonardo turned it down as he felt Gotti and Persico should discuss it between themselves.

- During the meeting Gotti told Persico the Gambinos do recognize Carmine Persico as the official boss. Afterward, everyone including DiLeonardo had drinks at the bar and DiLeonardo and Allie Persico continued having a couple drinks by themselves. Persico made some remarks about Gotti but of course DiLeonardo couldn't say anything in response because that's his boss. There was def an understanding between DiLeonardo and Persico.

Since we were talking about the recognition of bosses thought it was interesting the Colombos went around asking other Families their position on Carmine's status and Pete Gotti was initially unwilling to give them an answer.

by **CabriniGreen** » Sat May 28, 2022 9:50 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:49 am
CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:34 am Couple things...

1. It's just a show, but why would Junior ASK permission to hit one of his own capos? Chin didnt, in real life. Just following your logic here. It's HIS underling, right?

2. Again, keeping with this logic, how does Mancuso get appointed boss by the, acting? Or was Basciano official?
How does he get the slot through legitimate appointment, but Cammaranno can take a vote to oust him? Then.... what exactly? They threw the vote out? Why? Why did they go along with it? This goes to the question of a a families " True Power".

3. There a convo going right now about the Vitales and Tre Dita. I know ge was a soldier, but Coppola was definitely a " True Power", no?
1 He wouldn't have to, but had the 3rd act been Tony going to New York to settle the war or NY had somehow gotten involved, they wouldn't have recognized his claim or excuse as legitimate over Junior.

2 No idea, not my era and I only know those guys by name.

But you are very insistent in protocol and rules.

One of the Commisions main functions is to recognize bosses. Why would Cammarano accept being shelved if the Commision was a functioning body? Couldn't he take his " election" to the Commision as "evidence" of his claim? Or does Mancusos word carry more weight? Does an official bosses decree carry more weight than an acting bosses decree? Like are they looked at differently? Pennisi gave the impression Cammarano was more respected, but that might be his opinion more than fact. Mancuso seems to bring the fear factor....

And then there the whole..." vote". Gotti took a vote but it wasn't really a real VOTE. WAS Gotti TRULY sanctioned by the Commision? The Bonnanos were off, and 2 of the Families plotted his murder.... I dunno... it's interesting to kick around anyway....

by B. » Sat May 28, 2022 8:44 pm

Asked DiLeonardo about the Commission during his time. He drove Gotti to meetings where he signaled with his hand the letter "C" to mean it was a high-level meeting with the leaders of the other Families, i.e. Commission. He said the Families had certain representatives attend, but wasn't clear if it was still the "official" Commission or sort of a defacto one like we've been speculating.

He mentioned Chin being off the street being a factor. Also said something along the lines of Massino being in a better position to know than others when I mentioned his take.

Hopefully I'm conveying what he said properly but it def wasn't black and white. Either way it's clear Gotti still saw those meetings as something like a Commission meeting hence using the "C" hand signal.

by B. » Sat May 28, 2022 4:12 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:08 am This does bring me to the "Taking Over Cali" thread which had informants like Bomp considering Roselli the real boss of Cali because its bosses deferred to him while he was formally a soldier of Chicago. There are some who would probably chart that out as the 3 Cali bosses with a line going up to Roselli and then a line going above him to Chicago. This wouldn't be completely wrong but it wouldn't be completely right either as there was no formal decision made, Giancana never contacted California and said, "Ok, Bosses, you're going to report to my soldier John Roselli."

This is why I brought up the Galante = boss idea. There were many members and captains who supported Galante as the official boss within the Family and described him that way (even Donnie Brasco book does this), but the reality is he was not recognized by the Commission therefore he deserves an asterisk at best if he's going to be included on a succession chart. He was still running the organization "like" the boss would with nobody over him but the truth is he was not recognized. Why wasn't he recognized? Same reason Rochester wasn't a Family, the Commission said otherwise.

Like you said, maybe it's best to see the Commission in terms of eras. Though he was biased, Joe Bonanno does make a strong argument that the Commission post-1961 wasn't legitimate because they stopped following the very strict protocol and processes they established in 1931 and maintained for 30 years. The difference is, the rest of the country believed the Commission still existed and maintained it 1961-1985 in a slightly different diminishing form.

1985-2000 is even more diminished and as a national ruling body it appears to have been a shell of anything it used to be. What we see from the post-1985 "Commission" are meetings of convenience without most of the protocol and processes that defined the Commission. With that in mind, Massino makes a strong argument but I agree it's not the only argument even though it's a very strong one.

by **Angelo Santino** » Sat May 28, 2022 8:49 am

CabriniGreen wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 5:34 am Couple things...

1. It's just a show, but why would Junior ASK permission to hit one of his own capos? Chin didnt, in real life. Just following your logic here. It's HIS underling, right?

2. Again, keeping with this logic, how does Mancuso get appointed boss by the, acting? Or was Basciano official?
How does he get the slot through legitimate appointment, but Cammaranno can take a vote to oust him? Then.... what exactly? They threw the vote out? Why? Why did they go along with it? This goes to the question of a a families " True Power".

3. There a convo going right now about the Vitales and Tre Dita. I know ge was a soldier, but Coppola was definitely a " True Power", no?

1 He wouldn't have to, but had the 3rd act been Tony going to New York to settle the war or NY had somehow gotten involved, they wouldn't have recognized his claim or excuse as legitimate over Junior.

2 No idea, not my era and I only know those guys by name.

3 Don't know their situation so cannot speak on it.

Wiseguy wrote: ↑Sat May 28, 2022 8:08 am This is why I didn't take a strong stance either way on the subject. Even the mob guys themselves don't necessarily agree.

I will ask a former insider and get his take. From an outsider perspective, I think we could argue that "The Commission" has evolved over the years. 1931-1956 it was a formal body that met infrequently and hosted national meetings of bosses every five years. 1961-1975 would be a second era, Appalachin ended the national meetings that they hosted and things fell back on the system of representation that went on between the annual five year meets ie each boss was assigned to a boss that sat on the Commission. Bruno and Detroit were added during this era to share the burden since general assemblies were no longer an option. 1975 the Commission was reduced to NY and Chicago. The informants we have in the 1980's don't cover Chicago's involvement at that time but one can infer their interaction was limited by this point and the Commission's influence directly impacted NYC and then indirectly the nation. 1985 was the beheading of NY, hadn't happened since 1910. 1985 to the present, we don't have evidence of any organized body that meets like they did from 1931-1985 but a lack of evidence doesn't mean confirmation either or. Perhaps during this era, bosses meeting rarely and making decisions could constitute a "Commission Meeting," especially when Massino gathered 5 reps and it was agreed to reinstate the 100% Italian rule. We can argue over the legitimacy of the meeting constituting a Commission meet, but the decisions made during that meet is remnant of the type of decision makings that the traditional Commission used to make. I would argue that there was the 1985-2000 era where bosses were hammered and then 2000-present where, while cases are still coming out, it seems the Bosses/Acting bosses tenure has stabilized which could end up leading to the Commission's reformation. Not saying it has, but it's possible. We'll need evidence before speculating further.

by **Wiseguy** » Sat May 28, 2022 8:08 am

This is why I didn't take a strong stance either way on the subject. Even the mob guys themselves don't necessarily agree.

by **jmack** » Sat May 28, 2022 6:47 am

This discussion to me is fascinating. I think we are definitely splitting hairs in terms of formal vs. perceived. One thing I will opine on is why Massino may be motivated to somewhat stretch the truth. It could be the same thing we’ve seen with almost all cooperators over the years. How they were the last gangster and they only turned because the “old ways” were dead and there was nothing left to protect. Massino saying there is no commission reinforces that image and justifies why he did what he did. The implication being that he would never have done it except the old days were gone. He can’t say he was approved by the commission to take over in 1991 but also say it didn’t exist after 1985.

This is a way of increasing his own self importance and his own historical value. “I was at the last commission meeting” helps him rationalize in his own mind turning on something he lived his entire life for.

THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Is there even a commission anymore?

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