THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Antiliar wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:23 pm

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sun Jun 21, 2020 3:20 am I had him as well as a Salvatore Chirico as possible underbosses in 1931. Is this an error? Was Chirico suspected of being Underboss in 1931 and again in 1951?

I'm not aware of Chirico being an underboss in 1931. Anastasia was Mangano's underboss. James Le Pore, I believe, was Scalise's underboss.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:30 am

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:49 am Technically, apart from a bit of City Island, no house in the Bronx overlooks Pelham Bay (Pelham Bay itself is basically Orchard Beach). The only other “bay” (scare quotes because as with Pelham it’s technically not a bay) in the Bronx is Eastchester Bay, which is between City Island and Country Club/Throggs Neck. Let me know if you find the address I’d be very keen to know.

Just went back and looked at what I have, and my memory was wrong -- I never found an address for when he lived in the Bronx area.

It was his Fort Lee home that closely matched the description of the home Bill Bonanno mentioned in Pelham. The Fort Lee home was very large, overlooked the Hudson River, and was on a dead end. Maybe he confused the location and body of water.

The Chiris lived in Yonkers before New Jersey. No indication they ever lived near Pelham Bay which adds doubt to Bonanno's memory along with it being unlikely he had an NY home that matched his Fort Lee home so closely.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:49 am Technically, apart from a bit of City Island, no house in the Bronx overlooks Pelham Bay (Pelham Bay itself is basically Orchard Beach). The only other “bay” (scare quotes because as with Pelham it’s technically not a bay) in the Bronx is Eastchester Bay, which is between City Island and Country Club/Throggs Neck. Let me know if you find the address I’d be very keen to know.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:54 am Also, I noticed the Taranto name shows up frequently on the islands north of Messina but also in Ustica. I see one of the later Gambino Messinese had family from Lipari, one of the islands. Antiliar knows a lot about Ustica's ties to N.American mafia, but that's another example of an unlikely place (though Palermo-linked) in mafia history.

B. wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 1:50 am Tony -- Chiri's earlier home was on a dead end and overlooked the bay, though it wasn't Pelham. The description of the house/setting matched Bill's memory in my opinion. Will let you know if I dig up the address again.

What's interesting about Chiri is Antiliar found he was from Sferracavallo, but unlike Frank Scalise (whose clan was linked to Sferracavallo area) Gentile said Chiri/Chirico was one of the men who refused to turn on Masseria. Gentile also said one of the Gambino shooters who killed Terry Burns was from Sferracavallo but doesn't name the guy.

Scalise was killed by Anastasia, but don't think I've seen mention of Chiri being at odds with Anastasia which is interesting given he was underboss during the same period. A lot of missing details but seems Chiri wasn't always politically aligned with his paesani.

Chris Christie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:22 pm 1960's Gambino Messinese:

joseph Casablanca 9/19/1911 NYC 217 E 107th St, New York, NY 10029 East Harlem Manhattan Vincent Limina
vincent Casablanca 9/29/1913 NYC 180 E 104th St, New York, NY 10029 East Harlem Manhattan John Limina
Cosmo FRANCO 10/19/1907 NYC 253 W 16th St, New York, NY 10011 Chelsea Manhattan Carmelo Franco Santo Stefano di Camastra, Messina, Sicilia
Anthony Granza 3/25/1915 Oneida, Madison, New York, USA 2027 2nd Ave, New York, NY 10029 East Harlem Manhattan Giuseppe (Joseph) Granza San Fratello, Messina, Sicilia
Anthony Zangoglia 4/16/1924 300 E 107th St, New York, NY 10029 East Harlem Manhattan "Anthony Zangagla " San Fratello, Messina
Carmelo BIONDO Charles 1/22/1914 NYC 2418 Beaumont Ave, Bronx, NY 10458 Belmont Bronx Sebastano Barcellona Pozza di Golfo
John Joseph Biondo 4/10/1912 NYC 109-99 64th Rd, Forest Hills, NY 11375 Forrest Hills Long Island Sebastano Barcellona Pozza di Golfo
John Casablanca 7/30/1909 NYC 244 E 106th St, New York, NY 10029 East Harlem Manhattan Vincent Limina
Ignazio DiBella 2/12/1922 NYC 171 Union St, Brooklyn, NY 11231 Cobble Hill Brooklyn Antonio Francesco Bella Messina
Paul DiBella Robbie 12/2/1917 NYC 171 Union St, Brooklyn, NY 11231 Cobble Hill Brooklyn Antonio DiBella Messina
Salvatore Guarnieri 10/29/1915 NYC 2013 Stillwell Ave, Brooklyn, NY 11223 Gravesend Brooklyn Gaetano
Edward Bonica 4/22/1924 NYC 30 Warren St, Brooklyn, NY 11201 Columbia St Waterfont Brooklyn Giuseppe Bonica Lipari, Messina

Antiliar wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:11 pm That would be great. Would love to have this mystery solved.

Antiliar wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:09 pm

PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:33 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:05 am Salvatore Chiri's earlier Bronx home closely matches the description given by Bill Bonanno, though if I remember right the exact location is off. There is a thread buried on here somewhere where we discussed it. Chiri was residing in NJ by the time of the supposed Commission meeting, but it's possible he still owned the Bronx property. I'm of the opinion that Chiri and Chirico are the same person though it's not a slam dunk.

Do you recall what the address for this home was? The Salvatore Chiri (born 1888-1889) that Antiliar mentioned, IIRC, lived around 1930 at an address on Webb Ave in the Kingsbridge Heights section of the West Bronx, which couldn't be more different than the East Bronx. One thing I noted is that in "The Last Testament..." Bill Bonanno described the "Chirico" property as in Pelham Bay and overlooking "the bay". Despite its name, the Pelham Bay neighborhood proper isn't actually on the waterfront itself, however. Given the description (paraphrasing) of being on the waterfront on a dead-end street in an area filled with large homes built in the past by wealthy residents, I'm pretty sure this was actually Country Club (maybe Lucerne St?). I tried looking for a thread on the forum where the location of Chiri's home was discussed but didn't see it.

Yeah, that thread is gone. Maybe someone else knows why it was removed. The FBI in this index of names indicates that as far as they were concerned they were two different people: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... ch=chirico

I don't know if they were two different people or the same. I noticed that when Chiri arrived he used the surname Chirico instead of Chiri, although Palermo birth records indicate he was born Chiri. Maybe it was a transcription error on the passenger manifest. Also noted that Chiri and Chirico seemed to live in different parts of the Bronx. Yet when I tried to find a Salvatore Chirico who matched what was written about him there were zero positive results. A Sylvestro Chirico came close, and Toto could also be short for Sylvestro. But we don't have enough information to come to any definitive conclusions.

PolackTony wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 3:33 pm

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:05 am Salvatore Chiri's earlier Bronx home closely matches the description given by Bill Bonanno, though if I remember right the exact location is off. There is a thread buried on here somewhere where we discussed it. Chiri was residing in NJ by the time of the supposed Commission meeting, but it's possible he still owned the Bronx property. I'm of the opinion that Chiri and Chirico are the same person though it's not a slam dunk.

Do you recall what the address for this home was? The Salvatore Chiri (born 1888-1889) that Antiliar mentioned, IIRC, lived around 1930 at an address on Webb Ave in the Kingsbridge Heights section of the West Bronx, which couldn't be more different than the East Bronx. One thing I noted is that in "The Last Testament..." Bill Bonanno described the "Chirico" property as in Pelham Bay and overlooking "the bay". Despite its name, the Pelham Bay neighborhood proper isn't actually on the waterfront itself, however. Given the description (paraphrasing) of being on the waterfront on a dead-end street in an area filled with large homes built in the past by wealthy residents, I'm pretty sure this was actually Country Club (maybe Lucerne St?). I tried looking for a thread on the forum where the location of Chiri's home was discussed but didn't see it.

B. wrote: ↑Sat Jul 04, 2020 4:05 am Salvatore Chiri's earlier Bronx home closely matches the description given by Bill Bonanno, though if I remember right the exact location is off. There is a thread buried on here somewhere where we discussed it. Chiri was residing in NJ by the time of the supposed Commission meeting, but it's possible he still owned the Bronx property. I'm of the opinion that Chiri and Chirico are the same person though it's not a slam dunk.

Cheech wrote: ↑Tue Feb 01, 2022 1:03 pm https://www.marroccos.com/obituaries/Jo ... !/Obituary

is this the gambino memeber?