by Antiliar » Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:42 pm
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:01 am
Checked out the preview. Gravano's gripe about Franzese being green and still moving in front of the line ahead of guys who deserved it more is as old as time. So many factors go into it ranging from circumstances to who's who, it's safe to say that the Mafia isn't an equal opportunity employer and it's no fault of Franzese's. Still though, what Gravano is echoing is on par with other "workers" like Fratianno and others who had to prove they could hold the position while the sons of members were given it and expected to grow into it. The answer varies depending on who you ask and their background. I imagine both Paul Castellano and John Gotti would give very different answers if they were to candidly describe what the quintessential made guy should embody.
This also- for researchers like B, Rick and myself would find ironic is that we have a Sicilian starting that to a Napolitan. The situation is an embodiment of 100 years of Americanization and yet the subculture and rivalry between blue and white collar mafiosi remains.
As far as what constitutes an informant in that world, I asked DiLeonardo and he summarized it: "if someone tells the government anything about anyone then he's a rat. If someone called the FBI about al Qaeda he's a rat." That seems to be the mafia's definition and criteria so Franzese doesnt have a leg to stand on when he says he didnt send anyone to jail, it's an irrelevant point. So Gravano is correct.
Gravano's Jr-being-made-and-Chin-saying-sorry-to-hear-that also changed. In the book Gigante replied that to Gotti because, according to Gravano, the life was getting bad and no one in their right mind would want the life for their children. Now the story is Chin said that because Junior jumped ahead of the line and "that's not Cosa Nostra." As an outsider whose followed 200 years of this, it is, it kinda is.
It's an argument that can also be applied to boss, throughout history theres been no shortage of guys taking leadership positions over more seasoned or established figures.
As far as the fight scene build up at the end, looked to me like both men were smiling. And was it nessecary to have a guy sitting still each behind man against opposite walls. Were they paid to just sit there for ten hours? It's two senior citizens not Tyson and Holyfield in a stylized room. And we wonder why is cost 500k.
Additionally, we've seen in the history of the Mafia that there have been plenty of members who were made because of a special skill that helped the organization. This includes physicians, attorneys, businessmen, and even the occasional priest. Melchiorre Allegra was a politically-minded physician who was made into the Pagliarelli borgata, Frank Borgia a wealthy vintner who was made into the Los Angeles Family, Frank Desimone was a criminal attorney who eventually became boss of the L.A. Family, Robert DiBernardo reportedly never did "heavy work" before getting made, etc:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7534
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7540
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7538
So there's nothing "non-Cosa Nostra" about a guy getting made with no history of being in a gang or committing murders.
Regarding what constitutes a "rat," we've also seen the definition of not hurting anybody, or even just not hurting another member. We've seen the strict definition of rat broken all the time. We discussed that in the book Carlo Gambino: Boss of Bosses there's a story about Gambino notifying the police about a black criminal. It's common knowledge that a young Lucky Luciano notified narcotics agents about a stash in a member's car. FBI files are full of members - including some bosses - who talked to the feds to their benefit. There was a general rule that the son of a police officer couldn't get made, but in Chicago they may have made a few ex-cops (and even had members who were active in law enforcement). So we might say that DiLeonardo's definition is the "by the book" definition, but plenty of members had a more liberal definition.
I had the same feeling when I heard Gravano revise the Gotti-Gigante story. I suspect that he's revised a few more stories.
The latest Sammy the Bull podcast shines a little more light on the meeting. It apparently was held in or near a winery in Napa, California (if I recall correctly). It makes sense considering that Gravano lives in Arizona and Franzese and Ben-David are in California. It's beautiful country up there.
[quote="Chris Christie" post_id=214491 time=1638795690 user_id=69]
Checked out the preview. Gravano's gripe about Franzese being green and still moving in front of the line ahead of guys who deserved it more is as old as time. So many factors go into it ranging from circumstances to who's who, it's safe to say that the Mafia isn't an equal opportunity employer and it's no fault of Franzese's. Still though, what Gravano is echoing is on par with other "workers" like Fratianno and others who had to prove they could hold the position while the sons of members were given it and expected to grow into it. The answer varies depending on who you ask and their background. I imagine both Paul Castellano and John Gotti would give very different answers if they were to candidly describe what the quintessential made guy should embody.
This also- for researchers like B, Rick and myself would find ironic is that we have a Sicilian starting that to a Napolitan. The situation is an embodiment of 100 years of Americanization and yet the subculture and rivalry between blue and white collar mafiosi remains.
As far as what constitutes an informant in that world, I asked DiLeonardo and he summarized it: "if someone tells the government anything about anyone then he's a rat. If someone called the FBI about al Qaeda he's a rat." That seems to be the mafia's definition and criteria so Franzese doesnt have a leg to stand on when he says he didnt send anyone to jail, it's an irrelevant point. So Gravano is correct.
Gravano's Jr-being-made-and-Chin-saying-sorry-to-hear-that also changed. In the book Gigante replied that to Gotti because, according to Gravano, the life was getting bad and no one in their right mind would want the life for their children. Now the story is Chin said that because Junior jumped ahead of the line and "that's not Cosa Nostra." As an outsider whose followed 200 years of this, it is, it kinda is.
It's an argument that can also be applied to boss, throughout history theres been no shortage of guys taking leadership positions over more seasoned or established figures.
As far as the fight scene build up at the end, looked to me like both men were smiling. And was it nessecary to have a guy sitting still each behind man against opposite walls. Were they paid to just sit there for ten hours? It's two senior citizens not Tyson and Holyfield in a stylized room. And we wonder why is cost 500k.
[/quote]
Additionally, we've seen in the history of the Mafia that there have been plenty of members who were made because of a special skill that helped the organization. This includes physicians, attorneys, businessmen, and even the occasional priest. Melchiorre Allegra was a politically-minded physician who was made into the Pagliarelli borgata, Frank Borgia a wealthy vintner who was made into the Los Angeles Family, Frank Desimone was a criminal attorney who eventually became boss of the L.A. Family, Robert DiBernardo reportedly never did "heavy work" before getting made, etc: http://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7534
http://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7540
http://theblackhand.club/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=7538
So there's nothing "non-Cosa Nostra" about a guy getting made with no history of being in a gang or committing murders.
Regarding what constitutes a "rat," we've also seen the definition of not hurting anybody, or even just not hurting another member. We've seen the strict definition of rat broken all the time. We discussed that in the book Carlo Gambino: Boss of Bosses there's a story about Gambino notifying the police about a black criminal. It's common knowledge that a young Lucky Luciano notified narcotics agents about a stash in a member's car. FBI files are full of members - including some bosses - who talked to the feds to their benefit. There was a general rule that the son of a police officer couldn't get made, but in Chicago they may have made a few ex-cops (and even had members who were active in law enforcement). So we might say that DiLeonardo's definition is the "by the book" definition, but plenty of members had a more liberal definition.
I had the same feeling when I heard Gravano revise the Gotti-Gigante story. I suspect that he's revised a few more stories.
The latest Sammy the Bull podcast shines a little more light on the meeting. It apparently was held in or near a winery in Napa, California (if I recall correctly). It makes sense considering that Gravano lives in Arizona and Franzese and Ben-David are in California. It's beautiful country up there.