THE BLACK HAND FORUM

Villain wrote: ↑Fri May 08, 2020 12:32 am

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:19 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:13 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Similar or maybe even the same since both donated a lot of cash and weapons to Israel since the 1940s

Btw I know that we talked about this same situation before, so do you think that the whole scheme occurred under the Artur da Costa e Silva regime?

Thanks man, I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I believe it occurred in that same period of Arthur da Costa, it is even interesting because there was a similar case only involving gambling in a city called Rio de Janeiro, Castor de Andrade together with a fugitive from the first mafia war (Antonino Salamone), dominated the game of the animal (popular illegal lottery game here), and according to a judge at the time, the military dictatorship left Antonino Salamone to live in Brazil, even condemned in the USA and Italy.

The military dictatorship was gaining strength and in 1968 its peak began, which lasted until the end of the 70s, which makes sense with the archives that say that the agreement lasted until 1977, an agreement like this would be very advantageous for the military dictatorship, even more so that despite having helped in the economy in the beginning, over the years the dictator has been leaving a very big drop in the economy, which reflected in the huge inflation in the 80s.

At that time, Brazil did not have an "organized crime", there were groups and gangs that profited from drugs, robberies, prostitution and gambling, but nothing on a very large scale, so Outfit was very easy to dominate the market.

Thanks a lot for the additional info bud

Yup, it was during WWII and they did the same thing in Cuba, and as a matter of fact, Larner was questioned about it in 1959, during the McClellan hearings...

Senator Mundt: Is there an operation operating in the basement of the house, a dope ring or a counterfeiting bloc or a kidnapping bloc, do you know?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

Senator Mundt: This wasn't where they were shipping out arms, sending them to either side of the Cuban revolution, is it?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

Thanks man, you wrote an article about Larner here if I'm not mistaken, I'll read it soon.

Yes I wrote that piece around 4 or 5 years ago and even though its a lil bit outdated, still its an interesting read

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:19 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:13 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Similar or maybe even the same since both donated a lot of cash and weapons to Israel since the 1940s

Btw I know that we talked about this same situation before, so do you think that the whole scheme occurred under the Artur da Costa e Silva regime?

Thanks man, I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I believe it occurred in that same period of Arthur da Costa, it is even interesting because there was a similar case only involving gambling in a city called Rio de Janeiro, Castor de Andrade together with a fugitive from the first mafia war (Antonino Salamone), dominated the game of the animal (popular illegal lottery game here), and according to a judge at the time, the military dictatorship left Antonino Salamone to live in Brazil, even condemned in the USA and Italy.

The military dictatorship was gaining strength and in 1968 its peak began, which lasted until the end of the 70s, which makes sense with the archives that say that the agreement lasted until 1977, an agreement like this would be very advantageous for the military dictatorship, even more so that despite having helped in the economy in the beginning, over the years the dictator has been leaving a very big drop in the economy, which reflected in the huge inflation in the 80s.

At that time, Brazil did not have an "organized crime", there were groups and gangs that profited from drugs, robberies, prostitution and gambling, but nothing on a very large scale, so Outfit was very easy to dominate the market.

Thanks a lot for the additional info bud

Yup, it was during WWII and they did the same thing in Cuba, and as a matter of fact, Larner was questioned about it in 1959, during the McClellan hearings...

Senator Mundt: Is there an operation operating in the basement of the house, a dope ring or a counterfeiting bloc or a kidnapping bloc, do you know?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

Senator Mundt: This wasn't where they were shipping out arms, sending them to either side of the Cuban revolution, is it?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

Thanks man, you wrote an article about Larner here if I'm not mistaken, I'll read it soon.

Villain wrote: ↑Thu May 07, 2020 4:13 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Similar or maybe even the same since both donated a lot of cash and weapons to Israel since the 1940s

Btw I know that we talked about this same situation before, so do you think that the whole scheme occurred under the Artur da Costa e Silva regime?

Thanks man, I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I believe it occurred in that same period of Arthur da Costa, it is even interesting because there was a similar case only involving gambling in a city called Rio de Janeiro, Castor de Andrade together with a fugitive from the first mafia war (Antonino Salamone), dominated the game of the animal (popular illegal lottery game here), and according to a judge at the time, the military dictatorship left Antonino Salamone to live in Brazil, even condemned in the USA and Italy.

The military dictatorship was gaining strength and in 1968 its peak began, which lasted until the end of the 70s, which makes sense with the archives that say that the agreement lasted until 1977, an agreement like this would be very advantageous for the military dictatorship, even more so that despite having helped in the economy in the beginning, over the years the dictator has been leaving a very big drop in the economy, which reflected in the huge inflation in the 80s.

At that time, Brazil did not have an "organized crime", there were groups and gangs that profited from drugs, robberies, prostitution and gambling, but nothing on a very large scale, so Outfit was very easy to dominate the market.

Thanks a lot for the additional info bud

Yup, it was during WWII and they did the same thing in Cuba, and as a matter of fact, Larner was questioned about it in 1959, during the McClellan hearings...

Senator Mundt: Is there an operation operating in the basement of the house, a dope ring or a counterfeiting bloc or a kidnapping bloc, do you know?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

Senator Mundt: This wasn't where they were shipping out arms, sending them to either side of the Cuban revolution, is it?

Mr. Larner: I respectfully decline to answer because I honestly believe my answer might tend to incriminate me.

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:52 pm

Villain wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Similar or maybe even the same since both donated a lot of cash and weapons to Israel since the 1940s

Btw I know that we talked about this same situation before, so do you think that the whole scheme occurred under the Artur da Costa e Silva regime?

Thanks man, I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I didn't remember that about weapons, but if I remember correctly, it was at the time of World War II.

I believe it occurred in that same period of Arthur da Costa, it is even interesting because there was a similar case only involving gambling in a city called Rio de Janeiro, Castor de Andrade together with a fugitive from the first mafia war (Antonino Salamone), dominated the game of the animal (popular illegal lottery game here), and according to a judge at the time, the military dictatorship left Antonino Salamone to live in Brazil, even condemned in the USA and Italy.

The military dictatorship was gaining strength and in 1968 its peak began, which lasted until the end of the 70s, which makes sense with the archives that say that the agreement lasted until 1977, an agreement like this would be very advantageous for the military dictatorship, even more so that despite having helped in the economy in the beginning, over the years the dictator has been leaving a very big drop in the economy, which reflected in the huge inflation in the 80s.

At that time, Brazil did not have an "organized crime", there were groups and gangs that profited from drugs, robberies, prostitution and gambling, but nothing on a very large scale, so Outfit was very easy to dominate the market.

Villain wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 2:02 pm

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Similar or maybe even the same since both donated a lot of cash and weapons to Israel since the 1940s

Btw I know that we talked about this same situation before, so do you think that the whole scheme occurred under the Artur da Costa e Silva regime?

aleksandrored wrote: ↑Wed May 06, 2020 1:39 pm Is this Hyman Larner the same as if he were a Meyer Lansky but from Outfit?

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 9:07 am

Villain wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 6:41 am

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 5:39 am
Great info!! Thanks for the write up. You mentioned Larner was replaced in 77. What country was he spending most of his time in? Was it Panama? Also, wasn’t his son involved in the operation too?

I have to be honest that im not sure about the exact year when was Larner replaced by Russo, because it mightve been earlier or during the mid 70s. He was not replaced in the sense that Russo was in charge from that point on, but instead Russos job was to oversee all of Larners and Aiuppas international interests, mainly because Larner spent most of his time in Panama, and according to LE he was still considered the main go-to-guy out of the country.

Speaking about Panama, i dont know anything about his son but i do know that Larner was also joined by one of his cousins Marcell Harrick and together in Colon they operated the Juliano International, S.A., a corporation which was only engaged in importing vending and slot machines and also all kinds of gambling equipment from Chicago, of course all exported to Panama by Outfit owned firms.

I dont remember the year but later Harrick was killed on Larners orders and his body was never found or something like that. It seems that Larner believed in the "no body, no crime" theory since back in the 1950s he did the same thing to one female newsreporter. She was kidnapped and was never seen again.

Im maybe mixing up the years regarding the 1970s, since one file from the mid 70s speaks about Russo being in charge back home, while another file states that in 76 the crew was formed by the Bastone bros, Russo and Jimmy Johnson, and that Larner was the boss. On top of that, Larners boss Ed Vogel died in 77 so maybe some changes occurred after that

Btw do you know what year Russo died? I know Larry Rassano died during the mid 70s but I dont have a clue about Russo

Also during the late 70s a lot of changes occurred in the coin machine world with the arrival of video pocker machines and i believe that from that point on the Bastones fell under Torrelos/Ferriolas Cicero crew, mainly because thats the same stronghold from where both Vogel and Larner also came from. The Bastones came from MP, another area in which Vogel also had interests, and thats why later the Ferriola/Sarno/Cicero mob absorbed the whole MP area, after the "demise" of the Carlisi/Marcello crew.

Both the Aiuppa/Carlisi and Vogel/Larner crews were legacy from the same Capone/Cicero group and were always in close relation. But after awhile both groups entered the MP area and became more associated with the West Side faction, especially Aiuppa, while Vogel was more loyal to Alex and Ferraro or the South faction.

The Cicero area was always divided between the Buccieri/Torrelo/Ferriola/Infelice and the Aiuppa/Carlisi/Tornabene/Marcello groups, or until Sarno became the boss and took the whole areas, meaning both Cicero and MP.

Again according to LE, Larner was still the main guy in Panama regarding the pocker machines. I believe that this guy went retired sometime during the late 1980s, when the Bastones were out of the picture, followed by their main partner in the same scheme from Grand Av crew Louie Eboli, meaning most of his contacts back home were being cut off, especially when Corbitt and Patrick decided to cooperate.

Also do you know that Larner once tried to fake his own death? Lol

Great info! I did hear that Larner tried to fake his own death. I believe it was a plane crash right? That guy was definitely a power house that nobody knew about. A sleeper. I heard his son was somehow involved. I’ll look through my notes to see. It’s funny, people often wonder what happened to these international connections. Everyone just assumes they disappeared. That the only “10 made men over 80 years old” is all the Outfit has left. I disagree with that assessment. I believe the Outfit is still involved in these schemes. Just at a much smaller scale. As for Tommy Russo. I could be wrong but I believe he died in the early 2000s. Do you know what year he was born?

Villain wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 6:41 am

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 5:39 am
Great info!! Thanks for the write up. You mentioned Larner was replaced in 77. What country was he spending most of his time in? Was it Panama? Also, wasn’t his son involved in the operation too?

I have to be honest that im not sure about the exact year when was Larner replaced by Russo, because it mightve been earlier or during the mid 70s. He was not replaced in the sense that Russo was in charge from that point on, but instead Russos job was to oversee all of Larners and Aiuppas international interests, mainly because Larner spent most of his time in Panama, and according to LE he was still considered the main go-to-guy out of the country.

Speaking about Panama, i dont know anything about his son but i do know that Larner was also joined by one of his cousins Marcell Harrick and together in Colon they operated the Juliano International, S.A., a corporation which was only engaged in importing vending and slot machines and also all kinds of gambling equipment from Chicago, of course all exported to Panama by Outfit owned firms.

I dont remember the year but later Harrick was killed on Larners orders and his body was never found or something like that. It seems that Larner believed in the "no body, no crime" theory since back in the 1950s he did the same thing to one female newsreporter. She was kidnapped and was never seen again.

Im maybe mixing up the years regarding the 1970s, since one file from the mid 70s speaks about Russo being in charge back home, while another file states that in 76 the crew was formed by the Bastone bros, Russo and Jimmy Johnson, and that Larner was the boss. On top of that, Larners boss Ed Vogel died in 77 so maybe some changes occurred after that

Btw do you know what year Russo died? I know Larry Rassano died during the mid 70s but I dont have a clue about Russo

Also during the late 70s a lot of changes occurred in the coin machine world with the arrival of video pocker machines and i believe that from that point on the Bastones fell under Torrelos/Ferriolas Cicero crew, mainly because thats the same stronghold from where both Vogel and Larner also came from. The Bastones came from MP, another area in which Vogel also had interests, and thats why later the Ferriola/Sarno/Cicero mob absorbed the whole MP area, after the "demise" of the Carlisi/Marcello crew.

Both the Aiuppa/Carlisi and Vogel/Larner crews were legacy from the same Capone/Cicero group and were always in close relation. But after awhile both groups entered the MP area and became more associated with the West Side faction, especially Aiuppa, while Vogel was more loyal to Alex and Ferraro or the South faction.

The Cicero area was always divided between the Buccieri/Torrelo/Ferriola/Infelice and the Aiuppa/Carlisi/Tornabene/Marcello groups, or until Sarno became the boss and took the whole areas, meaning both Cicero and MP.

Again according to LE, Larner was still the main guy in Panama regarding the pocker machines. I believe that this guy went retired sometime during the late 1980s, when the Bastones were out of the picture, followed by their main partner in the same scheme from Grand Av crew Louie Eboli, meaning most of his contacts back home were being cut off, especially when Corbitt and Patrick decided to cooperate.

Also do you know that Larner once tried to fake his own death? Lol

Patrickgold wrote: ↑Tue May 05, 2020 5:39 am
Great info!! Thanks for the write up. You mentioned Larner was replaced in 77. What country was he spending most of his time in? Was it Panama? Also, wasn’t his son involved in the operation too?

Villain wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 12:11 pm

cavita wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 11:59 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 11:52 am

cavita wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 10:47 am Excellent, excellent information! I love reading on these well-researched stories on Chicago and learning new bits of information. Well done.

Thanks man, means a lot coming from a researcher such as yourself.

Also i forgot to mention three important things regarding the same situation...

The first one is, as I previously said that the so-called Combine was a "special" crew for the Outfits international ops, and it was mainly under the jurisdiction of Giancana, even after his "exile" from Chicago and the US.

So since Giancana was the boss of the squad, his board of directors included Vogel, Alex, Kruse and Larner. The rest of the members were Allen Rothman, Eddie Ginsburg, Peter and William Altiere, Anselmo Pacini, Sal and Carmen Bastone, Frank and Albert Meo, Charles Ross, Tony Orlando Tony De Angelos, Dominic and Tommy Russo, Jack De Lamater, Louis Lederer, James Tortoriello, Sam Volpentesto, Earl Kies, Julius Zimberoff, Guy Sparta, Alan Zimmerman, Paul Payne, Harold Edwards and Armando Pezzopane.

The second important thing is that the deal in Brazil was made in 1967 and it seems that Larner was one of Giancanas main overseers since both were constantly out of the country. Even though it became much smaller, still the crew existed even after Giancanas 1975 demise, since in 76 it was reported that the Combine was still controlled by Larner.

So the 1967 Brazilian deal was for the next 10 years, and so "coincidentally" when the deal passed, Outfit boss Joey Aiuppa replaced Larner with one of their underlings Tommy Russo as the new head of the Combine. This obviously means that Larner was in control of the Brazil scheme for 10 years, and this move was also made because Larner spent most of his time out of the country.

And the third and last important thing was that all of these so-called international operations, besides producing huge amounts of money, still they were in fact one huge “dirty laundry machine” for the Chicago Outfit, and the US Mob in general.

Nice! This makes me want to do a write up on the vending biz in Rockford. I'll see what I can come up with!

Pls do that and see if there are any connections regarding this or any other situation

cavita wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 11:59 am

Villain wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 11:52 am

cavita wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 10:47 am Excellent, excellent information! I love reading on these well-researched stories on Chicago and learning new bits of information. Well done.

Thanks man, means a lot coming from a researcher such as yourself.

Also i forgot to mention three important things regarding the same situation...

The first one is, as I previously said that the so-called Combine was a "special" crew for the Outfits international ops, and it was mainly under the jurisdiction of Giancana, even after his "exile" from Chicago and the US.

So since Giancana was the boss of the squad, his board of directors included Vogel, Alex, Kruse and Larner. The rest of the members were Allen Rothman, Eddie Ginsburg, Peter and William Altiere, Anselmo Pacini, Sal and Carmen Bastone, Frank and Albert Meo, Charles Ross, Tony Orlando Tony De Angelos, Dominic and Tommy Russo, Jack De Lamater, Louis Lederer, James Tortoriello, Sam Volpentesto, Earl Kies, Julius Zimberoff, Guy Sparta, Alan Zimmerman, Paul Payne, Harold Edwards and Armando Pezzopane.

The second important thing is that the deal in Brazil was made in 1967 and it seems that Larner was one of Giancanas main overseers since both were constantly out of the country. Even though it became much smaller, still the crew existed even after Giancanas 1975 demise, since in 76 it was reported that the Combine was still controlled by Larner.

So the 1967 Brazilian deal was for the next 10 years, and so "coincidentally" when the deal passed, Outfit boss Joey Aiuppa replaced Larner with one of their underlings Tommy Russo as the new head of the Combine. This obviously means that Larner was in control of the Brazil scheme for 10 years, and this move was also made because Larner spent most of his time out of the country.

And the third and last important thing was that all of these so-called international operations, besides producing huge amounts of money, still they were in fact one huge “dirty laundry machine” for the Chicago Outfit, and the US Mob in general.

Nice! This makes me want to do a write up on the vending biz in Rockford. I'll see what I can come up with!

Villain wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 11:52 am

cavita wrote: ↑Mon May 04, 2020 10:47 am Excellent, excellent information! I love reading on these well-researched stories on Chicago and learning new bits of information. Well done.

Thanks man, means a lot coming from a researcher such as yourself.

Also i forgot to mention three important things regarding the same situation...

The first one is, as I previously said that the so-called Combine was a "special" crew for the Outfits international ops, and it was mainly under the jurisdiction of Giancana, even after his "exile" from Chicago and the US.

So since Giancana was the boss of the squad, his board of directors included Vogel, Alex, Kruse and Larner. The rest of the members were Allen Rothman, Eddie Ginsburg, Peter and William Altiere, Anselmo Pacini, Sal and Carmen Bastone, Frank and Albert Meo, Charles Ross, Tony Orlando Tony De Angelos, Dominic and Tommy Russo, Jack De Lamater, Louis Lederer, James Tortoriello, Sam Volpentesto, Earl Kies, Julius Zimberoff, Guy Sparta, Alan Zimmerman, Paul Payne, Harold Edwards and Armando Pezzopane.

The second important thing is that the deal in Brazil was made in 1967 and it seems that Larner was one of Giancanas main overseers since both were constantly out of the country. Even though it became much smaller, still the crew existed even after Giancanas 1975 demise, since in 76 it was reported that the Combine was still controlled by Larner.

So the 1967 Brazilian deal was for the next 10 years, and so "coincidentally" when the deal passed, Outfit boss Joey Aiuppa replaced Larner with one of their underlings Tommy Russo as the new head of the Combine. This obviously means that Larner was in control of the Brazil scheme for 10 years, and this move was also made because Larner spent most of his time out of the country.

And the third and last important thing was that all of these so-called international operations, besides producing huge amounts of money, still they were in fact one huge “dirty laundry machine” for the Chicago Outfit, and the US Mob in general.