THE BLACK HAND FORUM

by B. » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:57 pm

Scarpa believed Donnie Shacks was trying to make contact with families in other parts of the country through Sal Profaci. Along with having relatives in Detroit and other places, Profaci was used as a messenger by the Commission during the problems with Joe Bonanno and likely had met a number of members from around the country given that he was made in the 1950s when his father was still the big guy.

I think I've changed my mind on the topic of the #1 person who should write a book... Sal Profaci. He could clear up the history of the Profaci Famiy, the relationship to the Newark family, not to mention everything else that guy absorbed over the years. From the Goodfella tapes he's a well-spoken, smart guy as well. There is no chance he'll write a book, though. Definitely a different breed from the Bonannos in that they only followed the rules when the ruled favored them.

by **Wiseguy** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 9:29 pm

Chris Christie wrote:He also said NJ was the first American Family.

La Church or something like that? Don't know who or what he was talking about.

by B. » Thu Oct 08, 2015 12:05 am

Just a random note I came across...

In 1977, a sitdown was held between Whitey Danzo and Bobby Occhipinti over a labor dispute between Occhipinti and Danzo's man Frank LaVecchia. Salvatore J. Profaci served as the mediator and settled in Danzo's favor. What makes it confusing is that Danzo's daughter was married to Salvatore "Fat Sal" Profaci Jr., who would die a year later, but he wasn't the one who mediated the dispute, it was his cousin Sal Profaci, son of Joseph. Also strange that a Colombo member would mediate an internal dispute involving the DeCavalcante family.

by **Giacomo_Vacari** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 2:17 am

From my understanding it was other capos in the family that wanted Profaci to become the new boss, as they had enough of Carmine. Sal declined, then Vic Orena was selected and that was the start of the Colombo war in the 1990s. That chart above is good, but it is leaving 30 to 40 top Palermo guys out of it.

by **bronx** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 8:23 pm

add vincenzo corrao. jimmy the blond.to sciacca

by **bronx** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:14 pm

joe triana , went with daqila

by **bronx** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:12 pm

Chris Christie wrote:To get a hold on it, it's best to understand the Mafia in Sicily (which you do). The rank and structure are the same. But they were localized groups that ran along important streets. In Palermo there was Passo Di Rigano, Resuttana, San Lorenzo etc all these individual groups situated right alongside each other. But it wasn't a gang thing, as members moved around they still kept their original affiliation. Meaning I could be a member of Falde and live in Acquasanta territory. Many of these group members were connected through intermarriage, associations with other groups across Sicily. They were localized factions of a much larger association, connected to Trapani, interior Palermo province and Agrigento and even abroad.

In NYC, it didn't work like that. There was never "The Harlem Family" or "The Williamsburgh Family." It seems based on regional affiliation that existed prior in Sicily and the groups that settled weren't arranged specifically but a result of chain migration. The Palermitan knew the Palermitan and etc and it congregated along those lines initially. And as these guys settled and carried on The Mafia they recruited first with Sicilian and eventually other Italians in the areas they operated in. So by the end of the 30's you had 5 groups with members and activities scattered across NY and NJ.

Now there's two Palermo expatriates: one is deeply connected to the Mafia in Falde, another one has no connections and is just a common criminal. The guy with Falde connections would be able to have letters sent confirming his connections and he would probably find himself easily accepted as a Gambino apprentice. The other Palermitan with no connections, would have to make his way into it differently. Let's say he lands on E 13 around the Gambinos, Bonannos and Genoveses and he starts working for someone in the Genoveses, he could potentially be made. Vito Cascio Ferro of Bisacquino, a man with long Interior Mafia ties was welcomed into the Genoveses almost immediately. DiLeonardo the grandfather of Micahel, also came from Bisacquino but went with D'Aquila... At the basics, it's who you know. And people from the same town are going to know each other unless someone moved to another city.

Does that make sense in how I explain it?

to bisacquino you can add joe n. gallos father, and the rumore's.

by **jimmyb** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 2:06 pm

Dellacroce wrote:There was kind of an interesting gangland article written by scott burnstein last year that some of it was about sal profaci(joe profaci's son) and his connections to detroit through his sisters that each married a high ranking detroit guy, one married tony zirelli, and the other married one of the toccos-

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=192&hilit=Profaci

The Profaci sisters were upset with cousin Rosalie when Bonannos started publishing autobios. Ironically, Tony Z and his wife end up sanctioning their own autobio (the one Burnstein is working on now). Sal Profaci the son is still alive and does not like that Tony Z and wife collaborated with Scott.

Article on Connie Profaci FYI: http://nypost.com/2010/12/12/godmother-of-real-estate/

by **Angelo Santino** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:56 pm

B. wrote:For sure. The mystery to me is why these two families were so intertwined, with soldiers and probably even a boss (Mineo) jumping between them. They were the two families with core Palermitan membership so that is a strong reason but I just wish we knew why some guys ended up in one camp versus the other. The well-known members of both families weren't just criminal types who happened to come from Palermo like the second type you mentioned, but were dyed in the wool mafiosi who were either already members themselves or had close relatives who were, i.e. the first type.

What you mentioned about members in Sicily moving to other areas but staying with their original family makes me think of some other things. In the US, you tended to see members transfer only when they moved to an area that was dominated by one family. If a member moved to Pittsburgh before the 1930s, he would join that family. If he moved to Buffalo, he would join that family. However, if he moved to an open territory that had no single family dominating, he would simply represent his original family there. With that in mind, I have to go back to the paragraph above where I'm wondering why some members seemed to switch families within NYC, where families have always had members in different boroughs. Part of it could be politics we don't know about, or situations like Valachi, but I also think there might be more to it.

Well remember, Sicily is a small island that could fit into most US states. So carrying an affiliation across state lines when you intended to settle permanently would be pointless that early on as the means of communication were still telegrams and letters. That's why outside of NY other families are homogeneous in their makeup. Think of the Sicilian Mafia like a Franchise such as McDonalds or Starbucks, that's how the Sicilians brought it. And outside of NY, it was simply one city or another with a single family.

As for the NY Gambino and Colombos, your guesses are as good as mine. But the takeaway is that most members live in areas with members of other families. There isn't a "territory" beyond the most basic. The Gambinos would never say Red Hook is their territory, but a Gambino member involved in some local business without competition could call it his area (in regards to that racket). To open a similar business is to cause him to lose profits and seen as an invasion of territory.

Quite generally, I think the split had to do with demographics. Mafia Families in Palermo average 30 to 45 members. In NY Palermo immigration was the main Sicilian demographic (and presumably more Palermitan Mafiosi which would have already been larger than the other two families). Between 1905 and 1910 immigration shot upward and perhaps the Gambinos were getting too large. It seemed that the split was agreed upon, it didn't seem bloody. One cannot just "start" a family, it's not that easy.

by B. » Tue Jun 09, 2015 1:47 pm

For sure. The mystery to me is why these two families were so intertwined, with soldiers and probably even a boss (Mineo) jumping between them. They were the two families with core Palermitan membership so that is a strong reason but I just wish we knew why some guys ended up in one camp versus the other. The well-known members of both families weren't just criminal types who happened to come from Palermo like the second type you mentioned, but were dyed in the wool mafiosi who were either already members themselves or had close relatives who were, i.e. the first type.

What you mentioned about members in Sicily moving to other areas but staying with their original family makes me think of some other things. In the US, you tended to see members transfer only when they moved to an area that was dominated by one family. If a member moved to Pittsburgh before the 1930s, he would join that family. If he moved to Buffalo, he would join that family. However, if he moved to an open territory that had no single family dominating, he would simply represent his original family there. With that in mind, I have to go back to the paragraph above where I'm wondering why some members seemed to switch families within NYC, where families have always had members in different boroughs. Part of it could be politics we don't know about, or situations like Valachi, but I also think there might be more to it.

by **Angelo Santino** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 12:20 pm

To get a hold on it, it's best to understand the Mafia in Sicily (which you do). The rank and structure are the same. But they were localized groups that ran along important streets. In Palermo there was Passo Di Rigano, Resuttana, San Lorenzo etc all these individual groups situated right alongside each other. But it wasn't a gang thing, as members moved around they still kept their original affiliation. Meaning I could be a member of Falde and live in Acquasanta territory. Many of these group members were connected through intermarriage, associations with other groups across Sicily. They were localized factions of a much larger association, connected to Trapani, interior Palermo province and Agrigento and even abroad.

In NYC, it didn't work like that. There was never "The Harlem Family" or "The Williamsburgh Family." It seems based on regional affiliation that existed prior in Sicily and the groups that settled weren't arranged specifically but a result of chain migration. The Palermitan knew the Palermitan and etc and it congregated along those lines initially. And as these guys settled and carried on The Mafia they recruited first with Sicilian and eventually other Italians in the areas they operated in. So by the end of the 30's you had 5 groups with members and activities scattered across NY and NJ.

Now there's two Palermo expatriates: one is deeply connected to the Mafia in Falde, another one has no connections and is just a common criminal. The guy with Falde connections would be able to have letters sent confirming his connections and he would probably find himself easily accepted as a Gambino apprentice. The other Palermitan with no connections, would have to make his way into it differently. Let's say he lands on E 13 around the Gambinos, Bonannos and Genoveses and he starts working for someone in the Genoveses, he could potentially be made. Vito Cascio Ferro of Bisacquino, a man with long Interior Mafia ties was welcomed into the Genoveses almost immediately. DiLeonardo the grandfather of Micahel, also came from Bisacquino but went with D'Aquila... At the basics, it's who you know. And people from the same town are going to know each other unless someone moved to another city.

Does that make sense in how I explain it?

by B. » Tue Jun 09, 2015 10:30 am

I forget too how close Corleone is to Agrigento and that the Agrigento-dominated DeCavalcantes for example had ties to Corleone both in Ribera and apparently in the US through the Majuris (though I've never been able to identify any other Corleone descendents except for the Majuris). Might have nothing to do with how the Brooklyn crew got hooked up with the Luccheses, but could mean something.

by **Angelo Santino** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:46 am

There was a strong link between Palermo and the Agrigento coastal cities like Sciacca and Favara and surrounding areas. Whether those ties go back to Sicily or it was a new world alliance is not something I'm sure of. But the Agrigento network was in Lower Manhattan Elizabeth Street, E 39 on the East Side and I believe E 80th. This crew/network was firmly part of D'Aquila's Gambino group. Perhaps Sciacca and Palermo, being coastal cities, their members (wine trading and exports) were more similar than the Corleonesi who were interior Sicilians from in and around Corleone, most of them being into drywall, plasterers and horse feed farmers.

by B. » Tue Jun 09, 2015 9:15 am

Chris Christie wrote:
B. wrote:
Chris Christie wrote:One thing also, about the Colombos. Map out where everyone lives and operates (that we know of), in the 10's, 30's and 60's they all come from South Brooklyn and below. Very few of them were active in the city or Bronx. Not making a conspiracy theory out of it, but I wondered if that was how the D'Aquilas (Gambinos) and Mineo-DiBella-Profaci (Colombo) managed to co-exist but there's no evidence of such an arrangement.

However, in the FBN Mafia book released, there's alot of names that didn't make it onto the Valachi charts, many of them came from lower Brooklyn connected with some narcotics trafficking. There's nothing from a glance that links them as Colombos but in the 1950's there were alot of unknowns.
Yeah, the Colombos were always the NY family with the most concentration in one place. I think that's a big reason why their crew successions are the least linear. Speaking of the Profaci relatives, it's weird how the NJ crew was made up of guys with some of the deepest histories in the organization. There is a report from the early 80s that says Sal J. Profaci wants to become boss of the Colombo family to continue his family's legacy but no idea if there is any truth to that or what it's based on.

D'Arco gave some curious things to consider even though it's mostly 3rd hand info and he may not be remembering it correctly, but he says Salvatore Curiale went back to the time when there was just one Brooklyn family. I doubt there was ever just one family active in Brooklyn (except maybe if you count the very first incarnation of the US mob in the 1800's), but you have to wonder if a lot of Brooklyn was originally under one banner then later split off and became/joined other families. The fact that there was a significant non-Sicilian Italian presence in Brooklyn that later joined the two families with the most mysterious origins (Profaci and Masseria) is worth thinking about, too... could say something about the way Brookly developed.

For Profaci relations, Emanuele Cammarata may have been related somehow. The Cottones also. Nino Cottone was apparently a member in both the Profaci and Villabate families. Relatives of the Maglioccos are the Villabate Fontanas, and related through marriage are Simone Andolino, Giuseppe Tipa, and Sebastiano D'Agati.
He also said NJ was the first American Family... He also mentioned Navy Street which I find amazing. Speaks of the clout and recognition they had for a time for someone to remember hearing about to recollect it 80 years later. Navy Street was a cafe/gang with some of its top members being Camorra. Some like Nitti and Ricca grew up in the same vicinity and came from the same area of Italy many of the Navy Streeters did. Essentially, the top echelon of NS were Camorrists, but one could be Navy Street and just loosely affiliated. I see similarities to NS and the Outfit but it could be coincidental.

The first Family in Brooklyn, in full force, would have been the Gambinos in South Broolyn, Broolyn Heights and Red Hook, connected with the Lower East Side on James Street up to the 100 block of Elizabeth.... The second Family would have been the Bonannos, established after 1898 but before 1905 in Williamsburgh around Marcy and Wallabout, N5th and Roebling.

Yeah, if D'Arco was even in the ballpark with his comment, I figure it might have been a reference to most of Brooklyn being under the future Gambinos originally, which would make sense why there seemed to be some fluidity between the future Colombo and Gambino families in that area. With the heavily Italian parts of South Brooklyn (Bensonhurst, etc.) they have always been overwhelmingly dominated by the Colombos and Gambinos. There were probably more, but the only Bonannos I know of who lived or operated there were Cesare Bonventre, Joseph DeFilippi, and Frank Lupo (would be interesting if Lupo had some relation to Ignazio Lupo), as their Brooklyn presence was almost entirely up north in Williamsburg and along the Queens border.

D'Arco's comment was made offhandedly to indicate that the original Lucchese Brooklyn crew (which included Bensonhurst at that time as well as their base in Canarsie) was part of the same family as the other Brooklyn crews. Whether that's true or not, you still have to wonder why a crew with an Agrigento background based in Brooklyn would get hooked up with a family dominated by Corleone and Palermo-area members up in East Harlem and the Bronx. If they split off from another group, like the D'Aquila/Lupo family, that makes it even more mysterious.

Will be very curious to see what you do with the non-Sicilian research you're doing. I have never been as interested in the non-Sicilians except in Philly but the more I learn the more it seems there was more than meets the eye as far as how they were organized and how they originally got hooked into the Sicilian-run families.

by **Angelo Santino** » Tue Jun 09, 2015 3:30 am

B. wrote:
Chris Christie wrote:One thing also, about the Colombos. Map out where everyone lives and operates (that we know of), in the 10's, 30's and 60's they all come from South Brooklyn and below. Very few of them were active in the city or Bronx. Not making a conspiracy theory out of it, but I wondered if that was how the D'Aquilas (Gambinos) and Mineo-DiBella-Profaci (Colombo) managed to co-exist but there's no evidence of such an arrangement.

However, in the FBN Mafia book released, there's alot of names that didn't make it onto the Valachi charts, many of them came from lower Brooklyn connected with some narcotics trafficking. There's nothing from a glance that links them as Colombos but in the 1950's there were alot of unknowns.
Yeah, the Colombos were always the NY family with the most concentration in one place. I think that's a big reason why their crew successions are the least linear. Speaking of the Profaci relatives, it's weird how the NJ crew was made up of guys with some of the deepest histories in the organization. There is a report from the early 80s that says Sal J. Profaci wants to become boss of the Colombo family to continue his family's legacy but no idea if there is any truth to that or what it's based on.

D'Arco gave some curious things to consider even though it's mostly 3rd hand info and he may not be remembering it correctly, but he says Salvatore Curiale went back to the time when there was just one Brooklyn family. I doubt there was ever just one family active in Brooklyn (except maybe if you count the very first incarnation of the US mob in the 1800's), but you have to wonder if a lot of Brooklyn was originally under one banner then later split off and became/joined other families. The fact that there was a significant non-Sicilian Italian presence in Brooklyn that later joined the two families with the most mysterious origins (Profaci and Masseria) is worth thinking about, too... could say something about the way Brookly developed.

For Profaci relations, Emanuele Cammarata may have been related somehow. The Cottones also. Nino Cottone was apparently a member in both the Profaci and Villabate families. Relatives of the Maglioccos are the Villabate Fontanas, and related through marriage are Simone Andolino, Giuseppe Tipa, and Sebastiano D'Agati.

He also said NJ was the first American Family... He also mentioned Navy Street which I find amazing. Speaks of the clout and recognition they had for a time for someone to remember hearing about to recollect it 80 years later. Navy Street was a cafe/gang with some of its top members being Camorra. Some like Nitti and Ricca grew up in the same vicinity and came from the same area of Italy many of the Navy Streeters did. Essentially, the top echelon of NS were Camorrists, but one could be Navy Street and just loosely affiliated. I see similarities to NS and the Outfit but it could be coincidental.

The first Family in Brooklyn, in full force, would have been the Gambinos in South Broolyn, Broolyn Heights and Red Hook, connected with the Lower East Side on James Street up to the 100 block of Elizabeth.... The second Family would have been the Bonannos, established after 1898 but before 1905 in Williamsburgh around Marcy and Wallabout, N5th and Roebling.

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