John Gotti in northern Illinois?

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Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by CabriniGreen » Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:45 pm

Aaah, got you

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by Wiseguy » Sun Mar 10, 2019 10:20 am

CabriniGreen wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 amI mean... for sure the numbers are off, the membership numbers are ALWAYS off, just like the estimates of the revenue from the operations....
I've never put much stock in associate estimates, as the definition can vary, but membership figures (at least in the U.S.) from the 1980s on are pretty solid.
CabriniGreen wrote: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:11 am @ Wiseguy

Also, what's this tail/ dog thing? lol
Meaning you sometimes make it seem like the leadership, policies, etc. of a mob family are subordinate to the drug traffickers within the organization rather than the other way around.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by CabriniGreen » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:11 am

@ Wiseguy

Also, what's this tail/ dog thing? lol

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by CabriniGreen » Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:07 am

@Wiseguy....
"Generally speaking, drugs are the biggest money maker for organized crime. And while it's been one of the biggest for the American LCN, gambling has always been the biggest. At least since the end of Prohibition."


Keeping this in mind.... you dont find it ODD, that the Gambinos were sought out first by the Sicilian cupola, THEN by a Calabrian ndrangheta clan for COCAINE?
Ive always been intrigued by the WHY behind that.....


The fact the Ursinos went through Americans, and
NOT the Piromallis, (who get it shipped DIRECT to Italy..) or the Pesces, or the Bellocco, or the Crupis, like NO ONE from the Siderno group......

And the guys making it happen like Cali, Federici, and in this case Zammuto, DIDNT NEED TO!?

Like Cavita said, it seemed to be something larger COMPELLING them to get involved...

You could understand Calis family ties, the Ursino thing strikes me as very odd.....

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by CabriniGreen » Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 am

Wiseguy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:52 am
CabriniGreen wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:41 pm This one here...



http://m.espresso.repubblica.it/attuali ... ef=RHRR-BE
[quote=Those U.S. numbers (which have been on the FBI website for years) refer to members and associates, while the figures for Palermo appear to refer to members alone. It stands to reason there are more Sicilian Mafia members and associates in Sicily than the U.S. Poor interpretation of the data by the writer of the article.
.....

I mean... for sure the numbers are off, the membership numbers are ALWAYS off, just like the estimates of the revenue from the operations....

No, what caught my eye was two things.....
1. That the transatlantic operations, were NEVER completely interrupted.....

2. That there was an attempt to reorganize this in 2001, and that it was an American initiative....

It's interesting for the same reasons Cavita outlines..... You could EASILY replace Zammuto with Cali or the Genovese guy, Federici. It's a question in itself as to WHY they would get involved at all...

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by Villain » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:46 pm

stubbs wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:01 pm
Villain wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:29 am During the 1950's the Outfit was supplied primarily by the New York Mob, with exception of some situations where the Florida faction delivered, and after that the Chicago boys distributed the product to all Midwestern cities of secondary importance, such as Omaha, Tulsa, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Iowa, Los Angeles, Houston, Denver and sometimes even in St. Louis but I dont have Rockford anywhere. This lasted until Giancana became the boss who in turn began creating his own or the Outfit's secondary connections or drug routes. During the 1960's the drug route around the Mexico border was mainly controlled by the Outfit, the Gambinos and the Bonannos

While Accardo was the boss during the late 1940s and early 50's, he mingled around many dope peddlers but when they got caught by the cops and his name was brought up, Accardo ordered everyone to be eliminated and thats why during the early 1970s when he became the top boss, he was completely against it. You see during the 70s a lot of guys were killed, over 100 i think, because of various reasons and one of those was narcotics. So I hardly believe that anyone openly dealt with it while guys like Accardo, Cerone and Alex were still alive and at the top...I didnt mention Aiuppa on purpose since according to one document, at first he stayed open minded (we dont know for how long) but later allegedly changed his mind and was also against it. So its possible that during the late 1980s Carlisi and DiFronzo kept more than few secrets from the old man Accardo, since by that time Aiuppa and Cerone were in jail while Alex was also considered an old man and stayed out of the day-to-day business decisions
Just curious, do you have any sources about The Outfit and Houston? Did you read that in a book somewhere?
Nope but instead you can find info in the FBN files.

In fact if you want to hear more about Houston and the Outfit, during the late 1950s North Side member Gerald Covelli and one of his associates Max Olshon, who in turn had connections in that area, transported stolen cars from Chicago and Springfield, Illinois to Houston, Texas, while crossing state lines which was a federal crime, and once the cars reached their destination, they were smuggled into Mexico and Guatemala for resale.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by stubbs » Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:01 pm

Villain wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2019 8:29 am During the 1950's the Outfit was supplied primarily by the New York Mob, with exception of some situations where the Florida faction delivered, and after that the Chicago boys distributed the product to all Midwestern cities of secondary importance, such as Omaha, Tulsa, Kansas City, Milwaukee, Iowa, Los Angeles, Houston, Denver and sometimes even in St. Louis but I dont have Rockford anywhere. This lasted until Giancana became the boss who in turn began creating his own or the Outfit's secondary connections or drug routes. During the 1960's the drug route around the Mexico border was mainly controlled by the Outfit, the Gambinos and the Bonannos

While Accardo was the boss during the late 1940s and early 50's, he mingled around many dope peddlers but when they got caught by the cops and his name was brought up, Accardo ordered everyone to be eliminated and thats why during the early 1970s when he became the top boss, he was completely against it. You see during the 70s a lot of guys were killed, over 100 i think, because of various reasons and one of those was narcotics. So I hardly believe that anyone openly dealt with it while guys like Accardo, Cerone and Alex were still alive and at the top...I didnt mention Aiuppa on purpose since according to one document, at first he stayed open minded (we dont know for how long) but later allegedly changed his mind and was also against it. So its possible that during the late 1980s Carlisi and DiFronzo kept more than few secrets from the old man Accardo, since by that time Aiuppa and Cerone were in jail while Alex was also considered an old man and stayed out of the day-to-day business decisions
Just curious, do you have any sources about The Outfit and Houston? Did you read that in a book somewhere?

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by DPG » Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:13 pm

Quoting one of my favorite movies Tequila Sunrise:

'Just show me that street one time.'

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by electricslim » Thu Mar 07, 2019 1:17 pm

It's pretty common for Law Enforcement to grossly overstate the street value of their bust.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by cavita » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:39 pm

SILENT PARTNERZ wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:04 am
Narcotics officers also seized a safe from Spears which contained seven kilograms of cocaine which was about 15.5 pounds. That and the cocaine strapped to his ankle made the total retail value about $2 million.
That makes each kilo of coke worth $285,714.29.
Pahleeze.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by Snakes » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:16 am

Chris Messino wasn't made, as far as I know.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by SILENT PARTNERZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:04 am

Narcotics officers also seized a safe from Spears which contained seven kilograms of cocaine which was about 15.5 pounds. That and the cocaine strapped to his ankle made the total retail value about $2 million.
That makes each kilo of coke worth $285,714.29.
Pahleeze.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by SILENT PARTNERZ » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:54 am

stubbs wrote: Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:56 pm
DPG wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 2:11 pm It makes sense that a family not in a major city would be more heavily involved in drugs considering there isnt millions and millions of dollars flowing around for them to try and grab a piece of. How the LA family didnt turn out like Montreal will always be a mystery to me.
I’m surprised New Orleans didnt end up with a bunch of zips running cocaine and heroin through the port. New Orleans always seemed like the perfect mixture of corrupt city with a tolerance for lawlessness, plus it’s a perfect location to be another Miami for importing of cocaine from Latin America, then up north.
New Orleans was a perfect port to import drugs. Carlos Marcello and his fellow southern friends/bosses Santos Trafficante (Tampa) and Joe Civello (Dallas) were big time dope importers. Marcello got busted early in his 'career' with a large amount of pot. Don't know about any zips involved in
NOLA, I suspect Carlos did not need their help.

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by Villain » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:33 am

cavita wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am Yes! Nice info, as I have always wondered how the Outfit distributed their drugs. I wondered the same with Rockford- once the narcotics were brought to these pizzerias/businesses, how did they ultimately end up at the street level and I recall something that was told to me by an investigative journalist from Rockford and that was that there were certain businesses in Rockford during the 1980s that were “hands off” by local law enforcement to allow them to distribute the narcotics. Apparently, the narcotics were brought in by the Rockford LCN and they then distributed the drugs to the Conservative Vice Lords gang. A member of the Vice Lords and an unnamed man from Antigua were paying protection money to a contact from law enforcement. For some reason the protection payments stopped so law enforcement had the guy from Antigua deported, their drug stash was confiscated and redistributed to a rival gang, most likely the Gangster Disciples, and they then started paying the protection money. Now, this was all told to the journalist by the member of the Vice Lords after he had left the gang.
Yes I agree since the Outfit used almost everyone for the distribution, from police officers and "legit" businessmen to members from different gangs or groups. For example, during the 50's and 60s they used a lot of black gangsters such as Nolan Mack and James Williams who in turn controlled their own crews and illegal operations which were separate from the Outfit's but still they kicked up a big percentage to the Mob from the drug sales. For example, Mack was close to Frank Caruso and Amrico DePietto, while Williams was with Ken Eto and Ross Prio. Also Dante Autullo Jr. was independent drug dealer but the thing was that his close associate Cappas was connected to Chris Messino who probably through his own connections invested Outfit money in the deals. Also the Chicago Heights crew used their close connections among the chop shop owners, like for example one of those lucrative connections was guy known as Ora Curry, who in fact was the “top general” for the south suburban chop shop racket, which was mostly under the auspices of Al Tocco at the time. But this wasnt always the case since made guys like DePietto were sometimes directly involved and ended up in jail. Also on November 18, 1993, Chris, Clement, Chris Jr., Paul and Blaise Messino were sentenced to jail for the conspiracy to possess with intent to distribute cocaine. Im not sure and maybe Snakes can help me on whether Chris Messino was a made member but I think he belonged to the Chicago Heights crew, besides having old blood relations in the Elmwood Park group

Re: John Gotti in northern Illinois?

by cavita » Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:31 am

Yes! Nice info, as I have always wondered how the Outfit distributed their drugs. I wondered the same with Rockford- once the narcotics were brought to these pizzerias/businesses, how did they ultimately end up at the street level and I recall something that was told to me by an investigative journalist from Rockford and that was that there were certain businesses in Rockford during the 1980s that were “hands off” by local law enforcement to allow them to distribute the narcotics. Apparently, the narcotics were brought in by the Rockford LCN and they then distributed the drugs to the Conservative Vice Lords gang. A member of the Vice Lords and an unnamed man from Antigua were paying protection money to a contact from law enforcement. For some reason the protection payments stopped so law enforcement had the guy from Antigua deported, their drug stash was confiscated and redistributed to a rival gang, most likely the Gangster Disciples, and they then started paying the protection money. Now, this was all told to the journalist by the member of the Vice Lords after he had left the gang.

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