Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Discuss all mafia families in the U.S., Canada, Italy, and everywhere else in the world.

Moderator: Capos

User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
User avatar
PolackTony
Filthy Few
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:54 am
Location: NYC/Chicago

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by PolackTony »

Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
Patrickgold
Full Patched
Posts: 1221
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:02 pm

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Patrickgold »

Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:08 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
I would imagine being made doesn't matter if the bosses want someone else in place there. Catuara was told to step down and didn't. Tocco is an aggressive up and comer, so the bosses use him to take Catuara out. Additionally, Lombardo and Grand Avenue were allegedly responsible for killing Catuara, so this implies that the bosses wanted Catuara dead.

Nick C didn't mention a beef between Amato and Solly D when he described the car bomb that almost killed Nick Sarillo. He seemed to imply that Sarillo was not paying street tax. I think the idea that Amato had beef with Solly D came about before Nick's testimony.
Last edited by Snakes on Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
PolackTony
Filthy Few
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:54 am
Location: NYC/Chicago

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by PolackTony »

Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:16 pm
Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:08 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
I would imagine being made doesn't matter if the bosses want someone else in place there. Catuara was told to step down and didn't. Tocco is an aggressive up and comer, so the bosses use him to take Catuara out. Additionally, Lombardo and Grand Avenue were allegedly responsible for killing Catuara, so this implies that the bosses wanted Catuara dead.

Nick C didn't mention a beef between Amato and Solly D when he described the car bomb that almost killed Nick Sarillo. He seemed to imply that Sarillo was not paying street tax. I think the idea that Amato had bred with Solly D came about before Nick's testimony.
Catuara being knocked down would’ve had to come with the approval of the admin, or the “council” if this body was still operating at this time. It may appear from the outside looking in that Tocco took Catuara out, but I very much doubt that was the case. Also, as Snakes notes, Catuara was clipped on the Westside by Grand Ave. Red Wemette has his issues, but he knew Catuara and the Grand Ave guys personally and told me that Catuara was told to back down by the admin and didn’t; thus his hit was delegated to Lombardo’s team. As we see in this transcript with Angelo Lap’s statement to Nick, being made doesn’t provide complete protection. But the threat of course comes from the admin and capos, not from associates. I don’t believe for a second that the Outfit permitted associates to abuse let alone whack members unless the bosses had already ruled against this person and issued a contract on them.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

Also, sorry, stupid auto-correct lol. That should read "beef," not "bred!"
Patrickgold
Full Patched
Posts: 1221
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 5:02 pm

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Patrickgold »

PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:27 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:16 pm
Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:08 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
I would imagine being made doesn't matter if the bosses want someone else in place there. Catuara was told to step down and didn't. Tocco is an aggressive up and comer, so the bosses use him to take Catuara out. Additionally, Lombardo and Grand Avenue were allegedly responsible for killing Catuara, so this implies that the bosses wanted Catuara dead.

Nick C didn't mention a beef between Amato and Solly D when he described the car bomb that almost killed Nick Sarillo. He seemed to imply that Sarillo was not paying street tax. I think the idea that Amato had bred with Solly D came about before Nick's testimony.
Catuara being knocked down would’ve had to come with the approval of the admin, or the “council” if this body was still operating at this time. It may appear from the outside looking in that Tocco took Catuara out, but I very much doubt that was the case. Also, as Snakes notes, Catuara was clipped on the Westside by Grand Ave. Red Wemette has his issues, but he knew Catuara and the Grand Ave guys personally and told me that Catuara was told to back down by the admin and didn’t; thus his hit was delegated to Lombardo’s team. As we see in this transcript with Angelo Lap’s statement to Nick, being made doesn’t provide complete protection. But the threat of course comes from the admin and capos, not from associates. I don’t believe for a second that the Outfit permitted associates to abuse let alone whack members unless the bosses had already ruled against this person and issued a contract on them.
With Amato, he was very close to Accardo. Wonder why Accardo let him get muscled out. Amato was basically the only made guy to show up at Accardo’s funeral
User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:53 pm
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:27 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:16 pm
Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:08 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
I would imagine being made doesn't matter if the bosses want someone else in place there. Catuara was told to step down and didn't. Tocco is an aggressive up and comer, so the bosses use him to take Catuara out. Additionally, Lombardo and Grand Avenue were allegedly responsible for killing Catuara, so this implies that the bosses wanted Catuara dead.

Nick C didn't mention a beef between Amato and Solly D when he described the car bomb that almost killed Nick Sarillo. He seemed to imply that Sarillo was not paying street tax. I think the idea that Amato had bred with Solly D came about before Nick's testimony.
Catuara being knocked down would’ve had to come with the approval of the admin, or the “council” if this body was still operating at this time. It may appear from the outside looking in that Tocco took Catuara out, but I very much doubt that was the case. Also, as Snakes notes, Catuara was clipped on the Westside by Grand Ave. Red Wemette has his issues, but he knew Catuara and the Grand Ave guys personally and told me that Catuara was told to back down by the admin and didn’t; thus his hit was delegated to Lombardo’s team. As we see in this transcript with Angelo Lap’s statement to Nick, being made doesn’t provide complete protection. But the threat of course comes from the admin and capos, not from associates. I don’t believe for a second that the Outfit permitted associates to abuse let alone whack members unless the bosses had already ruled against this person and issued a contract on them.
With Amato, he was very close to Accardo. Wonder why Accardo let him get muscled out. Amato was basically the only made guy to show up at Accardo’s funeral
Again, I don't think he did. The idea that he was muscled out by Ferriola and co. was before Nick flipped. Nick testified that the bombing was because Sarillo refused to pay street tax. I think the takeover of the western suburbs was more Amato stepping down or retiring than the West Side taking over by force. Solly D originally worked for Amato before he was under Infelise.
User avatar
PolackTony
Filthy Few
Posts: 5843
Joined: Thu May 28, 2020 10:54 am
Location: NYC/Chicago

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by PolackTony »

Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 2:01 pm
Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 1:53 pm
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:27 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:16 pm
Patrickgold wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:08 pm
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:45 am
PolackTony wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:37 am
Snakes wrote: Sun Jan 30, 2022 5:49 am For all we know, they could have been doing this "traditional" ceremony as far back as Giancana's self-imposed exile to Mexico. It's well documented that Giancana didn't care for that way of making guys, but being an active and participating member of the Commission, one has to wonder how guys did get made on his watch. I'm of the impression that the capos could make their own guys as long as they passed vetting from the leadership (and perhaps the other capos), so perhaps they were still making the guys the "old" way despite Giancana's disdain for it. Something else to consider, is that even if Giancana did have no use for this way of making guys, that would be a moot point if it was still what Ricca and Accardo wanted.
Yes. People have made a lot over the years out of Giancana’s expressed disdain for the ceremony. He may have personally felt that way, but that doesn’t necessarily reflect protocol or practice. I honestly don’t think we know enough to make firm claims as to what was happening during that period. And we certainly don’t know what was happening before.
Really, all we have documented prior to 1957 is the 1956 ceremony that was described not by a participant, but by an associate. The gist of it was described pretty clearly, but the exact details cannot be known as none of those inducted informed (to my knowledge, although Chuckie English may have provided some information at certain points in his life) or remain alive. That was the last known ceremony for 26l7 years.
You know what i find interesting is the fact you have non made guys challenging made guys and nobody seems to care. Supposedly Solly D challenges Amato over the Lake County territory in the early 80s and Solly D was not made until 88 or 89? Amato was obviously made long before that considering he was in the Last supper photo. And Tocco was another one. He had jimmy the bomber killed before he was made. So if being made makes such a difference then how is this allowed to happen? I just feel New York takes the made thing more serious than Chicago
I would imagine being made doesn't matter if the bosses want someone else in place there. Catuara was told to step down and didn't. Tocco is an aggressive up and comer, so the bosses use him to take Catuara out. Additionally, Lombardo and Grand Avenue were allegedly responsible for killing Catuara, so this implies that the bosses wanted Catuara dead.

Nick C didn't mention a beef between Amato and Solly D when he described the car bomb that almost killed Nick Sarillo. He seemed to imply that Sarillo was not paying street tax. I think the idea that Amato had bred with Solly D came about before Nick's testimony.
Catuara being knocked down would’ve had to come with the approval of the admin, or the “council” if this body was still operating at this time. It may appear from the outside looking in that Tocco took Catuara out, but I very much doubt that was the case. Also, as Snakes notes, Catuara was clipped on the Westside by Grand Ave. Red Wemette has his issues, but he knew Catuara and the Grand Ave guys personally and told me that Catuara was told to back down by the admin and didn’t; thus his hit was delegated to Lombardo’s team. As we see in this transcript with Angelo Lap’s statement to Nick, being made doesn’t provide complete protection. But the threat of course comes from the admin and capos, not from associates. I don’t believe for a second that the Outfit permitted associates to abuse let alone whack members unless the bosses had already ruled against this person and issued a contract on them.
With Amato, he was very close to Accardo. Wonder why Accardo let him get muscled out. Amato was basically the only made guy to show up at Accardo’s funeral
Again, I don't think he did. The idea that he was muscled out by Ferriola and co. was before Nick flipped. Nick testified that the bombing was because Sarillo refused to pay street tax. I think the takeover of the western suburbs was more Amato stepping down or retiring than the West Side taking over by force. Solly D originally worked for Amato before he was under Infelise.
Was it ever really confirmed what Amato was doing at the “Last Supper”? I know that it’s been speculated that one of the items on the agenda for that meeting was Amato stepping down but I don’t know if it’s just speculation or if there is some evidence supporting that assumption. Alternatively, Amato still had capo status and was simply present in that capacity.

The Sarillo thing just goes to further underscore how easily a distorted perspective on events can take hold if all that we have is an “outside looking in” vantage point. A made guy testified and we get a completely different take on what was actually happening there. I’m sure there were many such events in the history of the Outfit where our interpretation is flawed or even completely off base as we simply don’t know how things actually played out within the structure of the Outfit.
"Hey, hey, hey — this is America, baby! Survival of the fittest.”
B.
Men Of Mayhem
Posts: 10692
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by B. »

PolackTony wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:04 pm To be clear, this is a bit of irony on my part. It remains unclear to me how firm of a conclusion we can draw about any of these things in the past, given that we never had a made member actually questioned on the stand about these things for the public record. All that we can say with absolute certainty is that with the one guy who did testify, his account is fully comparable to LCN anywhere else, as you note. Having said that, it strikes me as very unlikely that Aiuppa pieced all of this together in the 1980s on his own accord after alleged decades of non-adherence.
If that car induction story was the only LA ceremony mentioned publicly, we might be seeing some fiction about how "The Los Angeles Family only inducted new members in cars to ensure secrecy and provide a quick getaway. It was a tradition started by the secretive Jack Dragna." Hard to judge based on limited info and easy to draw conclusions like you said.

There are the references from that early 1970s Chicago informant who said he was basically told he was made and even some older Sicilian relatives(?) of his were brought in the same way which would mean lapse in tradition happened much earlier... could indicate inconsistency like we see in some other Families, as it differs from the 1950s one Snakes mentioned which was at least a banquet (but maybe more as he said) and then the full-on 1983 one. Hard to gauge from a couple snippets and informants didn't always give agents the level of detail or full cooperation a CW would. Some made guys cooperated but wouldn't admit they were made for example.

Since I posted that excerpt from Gambetta above, I thought this was a good one relevant here:

Image

Interesting he found a Sicilian comparison for the Cleveland situation -- sometimes the person who knows how to do it is gone. Sort of plays into what Antiliar and Snakes have theorized, that it may have depended on who was in power. Hard to believe nobody in Chicago knew the oath/ritual for decades and suddenly remembered, but if the leaders at a given time didn't remember or care that could have an impact. These things can be surprising... you have the ultra Sicilian DeCavalcantes not doing the ceremony and the Neapolitan-American John Gotti being upset with them and demanding they do it. We'd assume it would be the other way around but it wasn't.

Gambetta says Calderone talked about how usually they did the full ceremony but under certain conditions would do an expedient one, mainly in prison. So even in Sicily it can change based on circumstance.
User avatar
Snakes
Full Patched
Posts: 4412
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:00 am
Location: Elvis Country

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Snakes »

B. wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:38 am
PolackTony wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:04 pm To be clear, this is a bit of irony on my part. It remains unclear to me how firm of a conclusion we can draw about any of these things in the past, given that we never had a made member actually questioned on the stand about these things for the public record. All that we can say with absolute certainty is that with the one guy who did testify, his account is fully comparable to LCN anywhere else, as you note. Having said that, it strikes me as very unlikely that Aiuppa pieced all of this together in the 1980s on his own accord after alleged decades of non-adherence.
If that car induction story was the only LA ceremony mentioned publicly, we might be seeing some fiction about how "The Los Angeles Family only inducted new members in cars to ensure secrecy and provide a quick getaway. It was a tradition started by the secretive Jack Dragna." Hard to judge based on limited info and easy to draw conclusions like you said.

There are the references from that early 1970s Chicago informant who said he was basically told he was made and even some older Sicilian relatives(?) of his were brought in the same way which would mean lapse in tradition happened much earlier... could indicate inconsistency like we see in some other Families, as it differs from the 1950s one Snakes mentioned which was at least a banquet (but maybe more as he said) and then the full-on 1983 one. Hard to gauge from a couple snippets and informants didn't always give agents the level of detail or full cooperation a CW would. Some made guys cooperated but wouldn't admit they were made for example.

Since I posted that excerpt from Gambetta above, I thought this was a good one relevant here:

Image

Interesting he found a Sicilian comparison for the Cleveland situation -- sometimes the person who knows how to do it is gone. Sort of plays into what Antiliar and Snakes have theorized, that it may have depended on who was in power. Hard to believe nobody in Chicago knew the oath/ritual for decades and suddenly remembered, but if the leaders at a given time didn't remember or care that could have an impact. These things can be surprising... you have the ultra Sicilian DeCavalcantes not doing the ceremony and the Neapolitan-American John Gotti being upset with them and demanding they do it. We'd assume it would be the other way around but it wasn't.

Gambetta says Calderone talked about how usually they did the full ceremony but under certain conditions would do an expedient one, mainly in prison. So even in Sicily it can change based on circumstance.
Some details from the 1956 ceremony:

-The individual who is to be "made" needs to be sponsored by one or more individuals who are already "made" themselves.
-The candidates are "known" to initiated members of the Chicago LCN via their sponsors and respective criminal activities they perform for or with their sponsors.
-About a month before a candidate is to be "made," they are told a place and time where they will be picked up for initiation.
-A banquet or dinner is held and the candidate swears an oath of secrecy and vows that no outsiders, including family, comes before "the Life."
-Once initiated, the new member reports to his sponsor and any beefs the new member has can also be brought before their sponsor. If a problem can not be straightened out by the member's sponsor, it is resolved by the committee of members who heads the "Family."
-Inducted members must be Italian on both sides of the family, but a specific province in Italy is not required.
-A mention of the powerful non-Italians associated with the Outfit is made. Murray Humphreys, Ralph Pierce, Gus Alex, Leslie Kruse, Leonard Patrick, and Edward Vogel are mentioned. Because of their non-Italian heritage, they can never be made, although their influence is such that their suggestions are still carried out by members of the Chicago LCN. Many of these individuals possess as much or more power than some of the members of the family, but cannot directly issue orders to initiated members of the organization. These individuals cannot be present at the time of the induction, but are allowed to attend any celebration after the initiation is completed.
-An individual may transfer between groups if an issue arises. For example, Joseph Ferriola angered William Daddano (his original sponsor) and was subsequently transferred to the Fiore Buccieri group. A further example of putting the Outfit before blood is given. If an issue arises between Ferriola and Frank Buccieri (Fiore's brother, who at the time was not made), Fiore must side with Ferriola as he is an initiated member of the organization and Frank is not.
-A member stays with their sponsor until the sponsor dies (or, as mentioned above, the member is transferred). A member must notify their sponsor if they are going on vacation or leaving the area. If a member of the organization is in serious trouble, all the other members vote on whether or not to "hit" this person. Not sure if this was something that was actually carried out, particularly as the CTE mentions the family containing 150 members at this time.
-If an individual has been marked for death, nobody that that individual sponsored is notified of the decision to kill them.
-About 25 to 30 individuals were "made" at the 1956 ceremony. Each group made about three or four individuals.
-Some of the individuals listed as being at the 1956 ceremony were (those listed as "possibles" are added by me based on other evidence):

Albert Frabotta
Phil Alderisio
Anthony Eldorado
Charles English
James Allegretti
Joseph Ferriola
Anthony Maenza
Vincent Inserro
John Varelli (possible)
Leonard Gianola (possible)
Sam English (possible)
User avatar
Antiliar
Full Patched
Posts: 4371
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:08 pm
Contact:

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Antiliar »

Other candidates for the 1956 ceremony include:
Max Inserro
Anthony Maenza
Leo Manfredi
James "Cowboy" Mirro
Rocco Pranno

John Rosselli (transferred from Los Angeles)
B.
Men Of Mayhem
Posts: 10692
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:18 pm
Contact:

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by B. »

Would be interesting if Roselli's transfer was included in the ceremony. When Gentile transferred to SF it was somewhat formal and they had a banquet with the consiglio present. Sometimes taking someone off the shelf could be formal too -- Rocco Scafidi was taken off the shelf at a making ceremony and was not "remade" but went through a similar process of being called up during the ceremony. Plenty of exceptions to this though.

Snakes -- awesome breakdown. Except for no mention of the gun/knife or blood/saint card it sounds like any ceremony.

Interesting they mention the committee. Still not going to call it a consiglio but so many references to these guys using a panel/committee and here it is mentioned with inductions.
-If an issue arises between Ferriola and Frank Buccieri (Fiore's brother, who at the time was not made), Fiore must side with Ferriola as he is an initiated member of the organization and Frank is not.
Pretty standard. Like you guys talked about earlier, if an associate is backed up by a member it might play out different. For example someone who steps on an associate's toes could be seen as insulting the member he's "with" and it effectively becomes an issue between members, not associate vs. member. Even moreso if it's an associate of a high-ranking member.
-A member stays with their sponsor until the sponsor dies (or, as mentioned above, the member is transferred). A member must notify their sponsor if they are going on vacation or leaving the area. If a member of the organization is in serious trouble, all the other members vote on whether or not to "hit" this person. Not sure if this was something that was actually carried out, particularly as the CTE mentions the family containing 150 members at this time.
One thing that seems consistent between the 1956 and 1983 ceremonies is Chicago preferred having a captain serve as sponsor. A lot more of a member's identity revolved around his captain and the crew he was made into even though there were exceptions. In NYC you don't see as much of that, where captains can sponsor guys but it's not the norm and it's not uncommon at all for him to be moved around sometimes immediately. Chicago really wanted captains to take responsibility for the members under them.
Southshore88
Straightened out
Posts: 388
Joined: Fri Aug 09, 2019 3:08 pm

Re: Nicky Slim's testimony about his 1983 induction ceremony

Post by Southshore88 »

Antiliar wrote: Mon Jan 31, 2022 2:40 pm Other candidates for the 1956 ceremony include:
Max Inserro
Anthony Maenza
Leo Manfredi
James "Cowboy" Mirro
Rocco Pranno

John Rosselli (transferred from Los Angeles)
I’m blanking on the year John DiFronzo was inducted - was he also made in the 50’s?
Post Reply