Vincent Cafaro testimony 1988 (25 Years After Valachi)

[B.]

Going to post some excerpts here from Vincent "Fish" Cafaro's 1988 testimony for the 25 Years After Valachi hearings.


TESTIMONY OF VINCENT CAFARO, NEW YORK, NY, ACCOMPA·
NIED BY DAVID T. EAMES, OF BODIAN & EAMES, NEW YORK,
NYrecord.

Mr. CAFARO. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the
subcommittee. My name is Vincent Cafaro, known to my friends as
the "Fish". Thirty-six years ago, when I was 17 years old, a kid in New York
City, I got "pinched" or busted for possession of 2 ounces of "junk,"
meaning narcotics.

Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, if you want to pull that mike down a
little bit, I think it might be easier. Just take your time now. We
have got plenty of time. You have got all the time you need. Just
take your time as you present your statement.

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, sir. My grandparents went to "Fat Tony" Salerno,
at the time a soldier in the Genovese family or "brugad," for
help. Fat Tony took me aside and gave me some advice: leave the
junk alone; if you need money, go out and steal.
Six or 7 years later, around 1958, Fat Tony came to me and
asked me if I wanted to work for him in a numbers office. I said
yes, and stayed with Fat Tony for the next 25 years. In the end,
Fat Tony had become, in many ways, like a father to me.
In 1986, the Federal Government charged Tony, myself, and 14
others, amico nostra, for, among other things, racketeering, extortion
and conspiracy.
Tony and the others are now awaiting a jury verdict on those
charges in New York City. Shortly after the indictment was returned,
I began cooperating with the FBI and the U.S. attorney's
office.
I agreed to and did wear a wire for the FBI for 5 months in New
York City. In October 1987, for a number of reasons, including concern
for my family, I informed the prosecutor's office that I no
longer wished to cooperate, and was placed in custody to await
trial.
I am providing this statement independently of any agreement
with the U.S. attorney's office. My case and all the charges against
me remain pending. I have not been given any immunity by the
Federal Government or by this subcommittee.
In 1974 I got "straightened out." In other words, I became a
"made" member of the Genovese family or the "brugad," a true
amico nostra. This is not something that you ask for. It is something
that you are offered by the family, if they feel you are
worthy.
Our family or our "brugad" has approximately 400 members,
with a definite hierarchy: a boss, an underboss, and a consigliere,
followed by 14 caporegimes. Each caporegime has a crew of at least
eight.
The boss of the Genovese family is Vincent Gigante, also known
as "Chin." Bobby Manna-Louis Manna-is the consigliere. Until
his death in Apri1 1987, Sammy Santora was the underboss of our
brugad.
Beginning in the early 1980's, Fat Tony Salerno was generally
recognized on the streets as the boss of the Genovese family. In fact
for years Fat Tony reported back to Phillip Lombardo, also known
as Ben or Benny Squint.
In the 1960's, when Vito Genovese went to jail, he had turned
over control of our brugad to Lombardo. Lombardo wanted to stay
in the background and keep the heat off himself. So over the years,
Tommy Ryan, then Eli Zaccardi, then Funzi Tieri, and finally Fat
Tony, fronted as the bosses of the family while Lombardo controlled
things from the background.
In 1981, Fat Tony had a stroke and was "pulled down" by Lombardo,
Vincent "Chin' Gigante, Manna, and Santora. Lombardo
was also in poor health and retired.

Senator NUNN. Could I stop you right there, what do you mean
by "pulled down"?

Mr. CAFARO. In other words, he was not the boss any more. He
was taken down.

Senator NUNN. It does not mean he was killed, or anything like
that, or hurt, or harmed?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no. He was just taken down. He was not a boss
any longer.

Senator NUNN. Thank you.

Mr. CAFARO. Gigante became the boss behind the scenes with
Santora as the underboss, and Manna as the consigliere.
Gigante also allowed Fat Tony to continue to front as the boss,
letting the other families believe, as recently as 1984, that Fat
Tony still controlled our brugad.
Fat Tony continued to represent the family by sitting on the
commission and in meeting representatives of the other families. In
fact Fat Tony conferred with Chin on any major matters affecting
the family. Chin attended one commission meeting but preferred
that Fat Tony go to these meetings.
I remember the day I became a member of the Genovese family.
Tony Salerno had told me and Patty Jerome to meet him and
Buckaloo one morning. When we arrived, Buckaloo took me to the
El Cortile Restaurant on Mulberry Street, where we met with
Funzi Tieri, the brugad's underboss, and Fat Tony, who at that
time was the consigliere.
I knew what I was there for when I saw a gun, a knife, a pin,
alcohol and tissue laying out on the table. Funzi asked me if I
wanted to become a member of the family. He said I could accept
or not accept, and there would be no hard feelings.
But he also said "once you accept you belong to us. We come
first. Your family and home come second. We come first, no matter
what." And I accepted.
Funzi then showed me the gun and the knife, and says "This is
the gun and the knife, you live with the gun and die by the knife."
He told me that Fat Tony had sponsored me, and gave me a piece
of paper to let burn in my hand while I took the oath. "If I betray
the Cosa Nostra, I shall burn like this paper".
He then pricked my trigger finger with the pin and told me,
"Now you are amico nostra, you have been born over again. Now
you are a man; you belong to us."
From that point on, I was amico nostra, a soldier in the Genovese
family, the most powerful mob family or "brugad" in New
York City, and, for that matter, in the United States.
There were certain rules that all amico nostra lived by: no fooling
around with another amico nostra's wife; no "junk"; no dealing
with pornography or Government bonds; and never talking about
"this thing" to anyone but another amico nostra.
Senator ROTH. Would you explain what you mean by "no junk."
Mr. CAFARO. It is narcotics.
Senator ROTH. Narcotics. Thank you.
Mr. CAFARO. We were a very disciplined organization. A soldier
had to check in at least once a week with his caporegime. A soldier
could not make a "score," meaning any illegal business, without
the approval of his capo. If he wanted to, a caporegime could
demand 10 percent of the profits made by his soldiers on a score. A
soldier could not even carry a gun without first getting approval
from his capo.
Most important, we knew never to ask questions about another
amico nostra's business unless it was also our business.
La Cosa Nostra enforces its rules through murder. So we even
have rules about who could or could not be murdered, or, as we say
on the streets-clipped, whacked or hurt. First of all, killings were
mandatory for certain offenses. Messing around with another
amico nostra's wife or family; dealing in "junk"; "ratting"; refusing
to go on a hit if asked; knowingly killing a cop or other law-enforcement
agent. Also, if someone you sponsored "ratted", you
would be killed as being responsible for his actions.
No killing or "hit" could take place without the approval of the
hierarchy of your family. The first step in getting that approval
was to take your "beef" to your capo, who in turn gets approval for
the hit from the consiglieri and the underboss. Ultimately, no hit
could go down without the approval of the boss.
If the boss okays the hit, the capo assigns it to you to be carried
out. You decide who, if anyone, from your own regime, will help
you do the job.
If the hit is against a member of another family, your boss will
take the beef to the boss of that family. If he agrees, members of
that family will carry out the hit. If he disagrees, and the hit takes
place anyway, a "war" may result.
As for me, I was never asked to carry out a hit. I never had to
kill anyone. This was because Fat Tony always looked out for me.
It was like a father and son relationship. However, I knew that if I
was ever asked, I would have to kill or be killed.
What I did for our family was to run the numbers business in
West Harlem from about 1l0th Street to 153rd Street. I had about
72 controllers working under me. We had plenty of willing customers.
We paid 6 to 1. The New York lottery only paid 5 to 1. At my
peak I was grossing about $80,000 per day with a net of about
$65,000 before payouts. I had some bad years, but in a good year I
could make as much as $2 million or more. Whatever money I
took, I split 50-50 with Fat Tony. Later I expanded my business
from numbers into sports betting.
My family made a lot of money from gambling and the numbers
rackets. We got our money from gambling but our real power, our
real strength came from the unions. With the unions behind us, we
could shut down the city, or the country for that matter, if we
needed to, to get our way.
Our brugad controlled a number of different unions, some of
which I personally dealt with, some of which I knew about from
other amico nostras. In some cases we got money from our dealings
with the unions, in some cases we got favors such as jobs for
friends and relatives, but more importantly, in all cases we got
power over every businessman in New York.
With the unions behind us, we could make or break the construction
industry, the garment business, the docks, to name but a few.
For example, Bobby Rao-Robert Rao-was a union official with
a local of Hotel Workers and Bartenders Union, Hotel, Restaurant
226
Employees, AFL-CIO Production, Service and Sales District Council.
Bobby and his union belonged to our brugad. Every month,
Bobby would bring over anywhere from a $1,000 to $2,000 for me to
give to Fat Tony, which I would split with Fat Tony.
At Christmas, Bobby-would bring over $25,000 for me to give to
Fat Tony. Fat Tony would tell me how to split the money up-half,
or $12,500 to Ben Lombardo who, at the time, was the boss of our
family behind Tony; another $6,500 to Tony Provenzano, or Tony
"Pro," a family member who controlled Teamstels Local 560; and
the remainder to be split between Fat Tony and myself.
I knew that the money that Bobby Rao delivered was money that
was skimmed from union funds, including union dental and medical
plans. I knew this because Bobby himself told me so.
Although our brugad probably had the greatest amount of union
influence in New York City, the other families also had control of
unions in certain areas and industries.
As a result, some of the most important industries in New York
City, such as the waterfront and shipping industries, construction
and concrete industries, the garment center, and the convention
center operations, were all subject to mob influence and control.
Another major soutee of our power and income for our brugad
was the mob's control of the concrete industry through what we
called the "2 percent club." Fat Tony and Paul Castellano were
partners with Nicky Auletta in S&A Concrete.
Salerno and Castellano had put up no money, but had provided
Auletta with their control and influence of the construction unions;
Through S&A Concrete, the Genovese and Gambino families also
took over the high-rise construction business of DIC Concrete and
Construction.
Castellano also controlled "Biff" Halloran, the owner of Transit
Mix and Certified Concrete. Castellano could control Halloran and
others like him because Castellano controlled Local 282 of the
Teamsters Union. All of the concrete drivers belonged to that Local
282.
For a while, only Halloran was allowed to deliver concrete to
construction sites in Manhattan. Fat Tony and Castellano used
their influence to insure that contractors bought all of their concrete
from Halloran. In return, for every sale arranged by Fat
Tony and Castellano, they got back from Halloran $1 per yard of
concrete poured. - During the same time, "Junior" Persico, the boss of the Colombo
brugad and "Tony Ducks" Corallo, the boss of the Lucchese brugad,
raised a "beef" about Halloran being the only one allowed to deliver
concrete in Manhattan.
Both of them had connections with concrete plants and wanted
to get a piece of Manhattan. Persico gets $3 to $4 a yard from Ferrara
Brothers, Ozone Park, Queens, New York, for concrete sales
obtained for them by Junior. Fat Tony and Castellano told them
that Halloran was with them, and given the strength of their families,
were able to keep Persico and Corallo out of Manhattan.
This worked well until a "beef" arose between Castellano and
Halloran regarding payment for some damaged trucks. As a result
227
of that dispute, Halloran stopped payments to Fat Tony and Castellano,
and other concrete companies were allowed into Manhattan.
To control the award of contracts, Vinnie DiNapoli came up with
a plan for the "2 percent Club" consisting of high-rise concrete construction
contractors.
The Genovese, Gambino, Lucchese and Colombo brugads ran the
club. Each family had a "made" guy who knew the construction
business as its representative on the club. These individuals ran
the club, but any "beefs" were settled by the bosses of the families.
The club members split up all of the jobs over $2 million. S&A
Concrete got all the jobs over $5 million. After a while, the smaller
contractors who were not members of the club started beefing because
there were not enough jobs under $2 million to go around,
and eventually, the $2 million rule was raised to $3 million. Anything
over $5 million still went to S&A concrete.
A club contractor that was given a job had to pay the club 2 percent
of the contract price. This 2 percent was split among the four
brugads.

Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, if I could interrupt you right there,
and when you say they control these contracts, and anything over
$5 million went to a certain company, anything under $2 million,
for a period of time, went to people who were not members of the
club, is that right?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. And then you raised that to $3 million?

Mr. CAFARO. Three million.

Senator NUNN. Now how did they control this? Presumably whoever
is awarding the contract wants a low price. Were they doing it
through rigged bids?

Mr. CAFARO. Through bid rigging. They would put in a bid of
say $1.5 million. You would put in your bid for $1.5 million, and
me knowing I could get the job, we knew the bids, and I would tell
you put in a bid for $1.3 million, and that is how the contractors
went along with that.

Senator NUNN. In other words, before the bids were put in, there
was an agreement among the members of the club

Mr. CAFARO. You put in a bid for $1.5 million, I put in a bid for
$1.3 million, and that is how I got the job.

Senator NUNN. So you knew who was going to be the low bidder
before the bids went in?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, sir.

Senator NUNN. How did you restrict outsiders from bidding?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, there were so many jobs allocated from the
Dodge report. They would get the Dodge report and see how many
jobs were coming up in a certain amount of time, and they would
start to work on the bids from then.

Senator NUNN. Well, you had to make sure nobody that was not
a member of the club bid, right?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you made sure that was not done because of
the contractors you had. Most of these contractors got all the work
anyway, but you made sure you got so many jobs,. I got so many
jobs, he got so many jobs, and it was done with the bid.

Senator NUNN. But you are basically saying there was not any
competition?

Mr. CAFARO. No, none whatsoever.

Senator NUNN. No real competition?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator ROTH. Could I ask one question there, Mr. Chairman.
Does that mean all construction on Manhattan was controlled by
these measures?

Mr. CAFARO. I would not say all of it but 75 percent of it.

Senator ROTH. Could you estimate what percentage.

Mr. CAFARO. I said 75 percent.

Senator ROTH. 75 percent?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator ROTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator NUNN. Thank you. Go ahead.

Mr. CAFARO. I have reviewed charts of the five New York families
which have been shown to me by the Subcommittee staff. I
have identified for the Subcommittee staff many of those individuals
who I know, either personally or through other amico nostras,
including the five current bosses of the New York families: Vincent
"Chin" Gigante of the Genovese family; John Gotti of the Gambino
family; Victor Amuso of the Lucchese family; Philip Rastelli of the
Bonanno family; and Carmine Persico of the Colombo family.

Senator NUNN. How many of those have you met personally?
How many of those individuals? Let's take them one by one, and
tell us whether you know them personally, or through others.

Mr. CAFARO. I met-well, Vincente "Chin" Gigante is a boss I
met.

Senator NUNN. You know him personally?

Mr. CAFARO. Personally. John Gotti, I met him at MCC. Never
knew him until I met him at MCC.

Senator NUNN. MCC being?

Mr. EAMES. That is the Metropolitan Corrections Center.

Senator NUNN. Right. So you met him personally, too?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Victor Amuso, "Little Vic," I met him personally.
Philip Rastelli, I don't know him, never met him.

Senator NUNN. You know him by reputation but not personally?

Mr. CAFARO. Not personally. And Carmine Junior, I met him personally.

Senator NUNN. Persico?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Thank you.

Mr. CAFARO. As for our own brugad, "Chin" Gigante is now
clearly recognized on the streets as the boss. To the outside world,
Gigante is known for his sometimes bizarre and crazy behavior.
In truth, he is a shrewd and experienced family member, who
has risen through the ranks from: soldier to capo to boss. His
strange behavior, suggesting to the outside world that he is crazy,
helps to further insulate him from the authorities.
In the meantime, his control of the family's activities is as strong
and as calculated as ever.

Senator NUNN. Could you give us an example of his so-called
crazy behavior.

Mr. CAFARO. Well, walks around with the robe and his pajamas.
He--

Senator NUNN. You mean outside?

Mr. CAFARO. Outside, yes, by the club where he stays. He is
always in his robe and his pajamas, and says crazy things. He does
crazy things.

Senator NUNN. But it is all a guise, you are saying?

Mr. CAFARO. From what I hear, yes.

Senator NUNN. You are saying he is not crazy?

Mr. CAFARO. I do not think so.

Senator NUNN. Go ahead. Thank you.

Mr. CAFARO. As boss, Gigante ultimately controls any of the family's
deals or scores. He directly controls all numbers operations in
the area from Sullivan Street up to 14th Street.
He runs the St. Anthony Feast, a street festival held annually in
Lower Manhattan. When "Tommy Ryan" was killed, Gigante took
the book on his shylock business. Since that time that money has
gone to Gigante's crew.
I also know that Gigante and John Gotti, as heir to Paul Castellano,
and current boss of the Gambino family, both pushed Nick
Auletta for a cut of the profits from the sale of the Bankers and
Brokers Building, as a result of promises supposedly made to Fat
Tony and Paul Castellano when Auletta first bought the building.
Gotti was seeking the money from Auletta because as the new
Gambino boss, he would be entitled to all the business and money
that used to go to Castellano.
For example, I remember Gotti asking me if I knew how much
money Castellano had been getting kicked back every month from
Scoissa Concrete Company.
I did not know but I told Gotti he should contact Funzi Mosca,
who, as the Gambino representative in the "Concrete Club," would
be able to give him the answer.
Thank you. That concludes my statement. I will be glad to
answer any questions you may have.

Senator NUNN. Thank you very much, Mr. Cafaro. Senator Roth
and I have a number of questions. And again, take your time. We
are not in any hurry this morning.
The first question I have, you have used several terms that may
not be clear during your testimony. What do you mean by the
term, for instance, of amico nostra?

Mr. CAFARO. Amico nostra is a wiseguy, a made member.

Senator NUNN. I have not heard that term before. What is the
difference in that and just being a member of the LCN or a made
man? Is that the same thing?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, amico nostra, that is the term I use. Amico
nostra. But you could say, friend of ours.

Senator NUNN. Friend of ours?

Mr. CAFARO. When you are making an introduction of a amico
nostra to meet another amico nostra.

Senator NUNN. Is that your term uniquely, or qo others use that
term, too?
Mr. CAFARO. A lot of people do not use those terms. They use
"friend of ours."

Senator NUNN. Why do you use arnico nostra?

Mr. CAFARO. I am not going to go through that story now. Well,
at one time I was drinking at a restaurant in a bar. And two
friends of mine walked in, and we were having a few drinks or
whatever, talking about everyday things.
And I told this amico nostra who was a friend, meet a friend of
ours. I do not know if I said friend of ours or friend of mine.

Senator NUNN. You were talking to someone who was a member
of the family about someone--

Mr.CAFARO. Who wasn't a member of the family.

Senator NUNN. About somebody who was not?

Mr. CAFARO. To this amico nostra, who was a member, I must
have said, meet a friend of ours, whatever his name, Jerry or whatever.
So he took it upon himself to think that he was amico nostra.
So the next day or a couple of days later, or a week later, they
were introducing him as amico nostra, which he was not.
So he come up to see me about a week later, he says, Vince, you
told me that so-and-so is a friend. I says, no, I never said he was a
friend. But you introduced me. If I introduced you as a friend of
ours or a friend, I says, I do not know; what is the problem?
He says, well, everybody is going-I introduced him, and everybody
thinks he is a friend of ours. And I say no, he was never
straightened out. I did not interpret it that way.
And he said, well, he said, I already did it. So I says to him, I
says-he says, you got a problem? I says, no, I says I will see Tony,
and I will discuss it with Tony.
But meanwhile, the kid who was supposed to be straightened out,
says, gee, I got straightened out and I didn't even know about it.
And that was it.
That is why-some oldtimer grabbed me, told me, say amico
nostra, that's a word that was from Portuguese, the wiseguys over
there used to use the word amico nostra, so that the agents or the
cops couldn't infiltrate. They would ask you what's the word, and
you had to say, amico nostra. And that's where it come from.
So I used to say amico nostra after that.

Senator NUNN. So you quit introducing people as a friend of
ours, and started using that term?

Mr. CAFARO. I started using amico nostra.

Senator NUNN. What does the term, brugad, mean?

Mr. CAFARO. That's the family. That's your family.

Senator NUNN. That is the family?

Mr. CAFARO. That all consisted of amico nostras, is the family.

Senator NUNN. Where did that term come from? Is that used
commonly by a lot of people? Or is that just your term?

Mr. CAFARO. That is the way I use it. Same fellow I was telling
you about, amico nostra, he is dead now.

[B.]

Senator NUNN. You have explained something about the way
you go about requesting permission to murder someone within the
family. Were you ever present when this type of approval for a
murder was requested?

Mr. CAFARO. Requested by the boss?

Senator NUNN. Requested by anyone. In other words, were you
ever present when a member of the family asked the hierarchy for
permission to murder someone?

Mr. CAFARO. You have got to go through your captain, if you are
a soldier. You go through your captain. And you give him the
reason why.
I was there one time when this Philly-what is his name?-this
Philly Buono had come down, he is amico nostra with us in our
regime, and he was looking for an okay with this Nat Masselli.

Senator NUNN. Who was Nat Masselli? Was he a member of the
family?

Mr. CAFARO. No. Not that I know of. I do not know him. I just know the name.

Senator NUNN. He was outside the family then?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. He come down with a piece of paper, about
as big as this. And I was standing on the corner on 116th Street
with Sammy Santora.

Senator NUNN. In New York City?

Mr. CAFARO. In New York City, yes. And he come down, he
pulled this paper out of his pocket, and he showed it to Sammy.

Senator NUNN. Sammy was who?

Mr. CAFARO. He was the underboss in our brugad at the time.

Senator NUNN. Santora?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. And he showed him the paper. Sammy read it,
he said, well, could this hurt you? He says, yeah, I did a few things
with this kid. And the kid was supposed to be a rat. So Sammy
says, all right, I'll get back to you tomorrow.
So I says to Sammy, what are you going to do? He said, I am
going to go down and see the skinny guy and the "Chin".

Senator NUNN. Who was the skinny guy?

Mr. CAFARO. That is what I interpret as Bobby Manna.

Senator NUNN. Who was Bobby Manna?

Mr. CAFARO. Bobby Manna is the consigliere in our brugad.

Senator NUNN. Of the family?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. And who was the "Chin"?

Mr. CAFARO. The boss of the family.

Senator NUNN. And tell us the name of the boss.

Mr. CAFARO. Oh, "Chin" Gigante, Vincent Gigante.

Senator NUNN. So the "Chin" was Gigante?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Go ahead.

Mr. CAFARO. And he went down and supposedly seen him that
day or that night. And I had seen Sammy the next day or a day
later, whatever it was, and I asked him, I said, how did you do? He
says, yeah, I got the okay for Philly. He says, in fact I got to go see
Philly and tell him it is okay to do what he wants. And that was
the situation.

Senator NUNN: What happened?

Mr. CAFARO. I do not know if it was a week later or two weeks
later, whatever, the kid was found killed in his car in the Bronx.

Senator NUNN. The kid being Nat Masselli?

Mr. CAFARO. Nat Masselli, right .. Senator NUNN. The one the request was made on?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Was anyone ever tried for that murder or hit?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, they were convicted, this Philly Buono and Sal
Odierno.

Senator NUNN. Was anyone else involved in the actual murder?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, not that I know of, Senator.

Senator NUNN. So they were actually arrested, tried and convicted?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Do you know how that murder was carried out?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator NUNN. Was it by gun, or do you know?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to what the newspapers say, he was
killed in a car.

Senator NUNN. Were you present during conversations regarding
the disappearance of Teddy Maritas?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, there was one conversation. I was standing on
the corner on 115th Street and First Avenue.

Senator NUNN. That is again in New York City?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I was talking to some people. And Vinny DiNapoli
asked me-he wanted to ask me something.

Senator NUNN. Who is that?

Mr. CAFARO. Vinny DiNapoli. He is amico nostra with us, with
our regime. He says, I am a little worried about this Teddy Maritas.
I say, what do you mean, what? He said, I am a little scared
about him. He was standing trial then on some concrete case,
something, I do not know what about.
I says, so what are you telling me for? Go discuss it with Sammy,
Sammy Santora. And that was the extent of it.

Senator NUNN. Do you know whether he did discuss it with
Sammy later?

Mr. CAFARO. I do not know, Senator. I never spoke about it any
more.

Senator NUNN. What happened to Maritas?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to the newspapers, he was missing.

Senator NUNN. How much later after that conversation?

Mr. CAFARO. I could not tell you offhand.

Senator NUNN. Several months, or within a year?

Mr. CAFARO. Could have been several months, several weeks.

Senator NUNN. Do you know, or do you have any way of knowing,
or do you have any belief, about who was responsible for his
disappearance?

Mr. CAFARO. I do not know. For him to ask something like that, I
would say--

Senator NUNN. You would just be guessing, would you not? You
do not really know?

Mr. CAFARO. I do not know.

Senator NUNNN. Well, let us leave that one off. Was anyone
ever
convicted in connection with Maritas' disappearance?
Mr. CAFARO. No, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Do you have any knowledge regarding the
murder of Tony Bananas? I believe the formal name is Antonio Caponigro.

Mr. CAFARO. Well, when the old man Bruno got killed in Philadelphia.

Senator NUNN. That is Angelo Bruno?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. And he had got killed, he was the boss of the
Philadelphia mob. And there was supposed to have been a power
struggle there between this fellow, Chicken, he was the underboss
there, and this Tony Bananas.

Senator NUNN. Chicken was Phillip Testa, wasn't it?

Mr. CAFARO. Philly Testa, right. He had come up to New York at
one time to see Tony. And who was there was Tony "Ducks", Tom
"Mix"--

Senator NUNN. Is Tony "Ducks" Corallo?

Mr. CAFARO. He is the boss of the Luchese family, Tony "Ducks"
Corallo. Tom "Mix" Santora was the underboss.

Senator NUNN. Who was Tom "Mix"?

Mr. CAFARO. He was the underboss of the Luchese family.

Senator NUNN. That is his nickname. What is his--

Mr. CAFARO. Santoro. And Paul Castellano was there and Fat
Tony. And this Chicken went and seen them. So when I seen Tony
later on, after they had their meeting in the club, he said that
there was a power struggle between Philly Testa and Tony Bananas
Caponigro, and that there was a power struggle.
And then after that, a couple of hours after that, this Tony Bananas
come to discuss it with Tony, and there was present Tony
Ducks Corallo of the Luchese mob; Tom Mix Santora, the underboss
of the Luchese mob; and Paul Castellano, and Fat Tony.
And whatever they discussed, I do not know. But about a week
later this Philly Testa come back. So Tony introduced me to him as
the underboss of the Philadelphia mob.
So he says to Tony that he thinks Tony Bananas was guilty of
the murder of Angelo Bruno. And that was the extent to that.
Then about a week after that, Tony Bananas come up or 2 weeks
after, he wanted to discuss something with Tony, and we were
walking. And Tony said, I do not want to get involved. I do not
want to hear about it. Go see Chin.

Senator NUNN. Who was he telling that to?

Mr. CAFARO. Tony Bananas. And that was the extent of that part of the conversation.
Then about a couple of weeks later, I do not remember the
weeks, Tony Bananas had to go to 47th or 48th Street in the diamond
center to meet Baldy Dom Cantarino, he is a caporegime in
our brugad. And he had to meet Baldy Dom, whatever his name is,
I cannot say the last name, and he had to meet him there between,
I do not know, 47th or 48th Street in the diamond exchange. And then that day or a couple of days later, they were found in
the Bronx dead; Tony Bananas.

Senator NUNN. I did not hear that last part?

Mr. CAFARO. I says, Tony Bananas, a couple of days later or next
day or two, 3 days later; was found in the Bronx dead.

Senator NUNN. You believe there was a direct connection between
those conversations and his murder, then?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Do you have any way of knowing who carried out
the hit?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator NUNN. So you do not know who carried it out?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator NUNN. I am puzzled by the connection between the
Philadelphia family and the New York family. Why was the New
York family, your family, concerned about I the murder of Bruno in
Philadelphia?

Mr. CAFARO. It was not only our family. It was Paul Castellano
there, Tony Ducks Corallo was there, and Tom Mix.

Senator NUNN. So there were three families?

Mr. CAFARO. Three families there.

Senator NUNN. Three New York families concerning the
murder--

Mr. CAFARO. The killing of Angelo Bruno, being that he was a
boss of another brugad. And usually it is not done that way, to kill
a boss, without discussing it. So there is where the power play
must have come in.

Senator NUNN. In other words, Bruno had been killed in Philadelphia---

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. And he had been killed obviously without a discussion among the other top mob leaders--

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. In the country, or at least in New
York?

Mr. CAFARO. At least in New York or whatever. It was never discussed.

Senator NUNN. So they felt it was not within the overall protocol
or the rules of the mob?

Mr. CAFARO. It wasn't in the rules; no, it wasn't in the rules.
Senator NUNN. To kill the boss 'Without discussing it with other
bosses?

Mr. CAFARO. Without discussing any reasoning or whatever.

Senator NUNN. Did they feel that they themselves might be in
jeopardy if that protocol broke down, if they didn't enforce it?

Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. I would say yes.

Senator NUNN. So it was something that offended them pretty
seriously?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator, I would say.

Senator NUNN. Did Tony talk to you about this? Did he go into
any detail?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, no, after this killing with Tony Bananas, the
following week, he says, I am glad I sent him down to Chin; I did
not get involved with this.

Senator NUNN. Why was he glad he did not get involved?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, my interpretation I guess is that because of
the killing.

Senator NUNN. So he would prefer not to have been involved.
Mr. CAFARO. That is a family problem within-let them straighten
out their own problems.

Senator NUNN. In other words, he would rather for Chin to be
the one to make that decision rather than him?

Mr. CAFARO, Either that, or he just did not want to get involved
with a family problem from another brugad.

Senator NUNN. Did Fat Tony tell you about the killing? Is that
the way you found out about it?

Mr. CAFARO. No, I read it in the papers. It was in the newspapers.

Senator NUNN. And did Fat Tony ever tell you who he thought
did the--actually carried out the killing?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, he had said to me, that is how I know about
the appointment on 47th or 48th street in the diamond exchange,
that it was an appointment made with Baldy Dom down there.

Senator NUNN. Appointment made with?

Mr. CAFARO. With Tony Bananas and Baldy Dom.

Senator NUNN. Baldy Dom?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, he s a caporegime in our brugad.

Senator NUNN. Did Fat Tony tell you that Baldy Dom's crew actually
carried out the killing?

Mr. CAFARO. No, he did not tell me they carried out the killing.
My opinion, I would say yes.

Senator NUNN. Your opinion?
Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I misunderstood the question.

Senator NUNN. I believe in your affidavit, let me read that and
see if this is correct, you say, reading, that in April 1980-this is
page four, for counsel, page four of the affidavit. I am sorry, page
12 and 13 of the affidavit.
Let me read this to you and see where it is in error, if in error,
or whether it is accurate if it is accurate.
You say, "In April 1980, 'Tony Bananas' visited Tony Salerno, at
the Palma Boys Social Club. After this visit, Tony told me that he
had advised 'Tony Bananas' to go see 'The Chin,'because he did
not want to get involved in Philadelphia's problems. Fat Tony
thought that the matter was a Philadelphia problem, and passed
the problem off to 'The Chin.' At the time, the acting boss was (underboss)
Funzi Tieri, with Lombardo, the real power behind the
scene, and Manna, the consigliere. A short time later 'Tony Bananas'
and another guy were found murdered in the Bronx. In midApril,
1980, Salerno told me, 'It's is a good thing that I did not get
involved with this Tony Bananas thing and I sent him to see the
Chin. He had an appointment with the Chin, Baldy Dom (Dominick)
Cantarino picked him up and the other guy, at the Diamond
Exchange on 47th Street or 48th Street (New York, New York), and
they banged him out.' " Is that correct?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Do you have anything to add to that? Are there
any deletions? Any changes? Anything in error on that?

Mr. CAFARO. Oh, I do not know exactly who carried out the hit,
who killed him. But it had to be the regime.

Senator NUNN. Right, yes. Was anyone ever convicted of the
murder of Tony Bananas?

Mr. CAFARO. No, not that I know of.

[B.]

Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, what was your age when you became
a made man, or straightened out, became a member of the LCN?

Mr. CAFARO. Say, 14 years ago, I was forty or forty-one years old.
Senator NUNN. Forty or forty-one years old?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Why did you agree to become a member?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, when you were brought up in the neighborhood,
East Harlem in New York City, you always looked up to the
wiseguys, what I mean is amico nostra. And the kid from the
streets, and whatever. And to us it's honor, honorable.

Senator NUNN. Did you know who the wiseguys were when you
were growing up?

Mr. CAFARO. I knew some of them; not all of them. Of course
then it was more of a secrecy than it is now.

Senator NUNN. What do you gain from being a member?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you gain honor, respect; that is what you gain.
Honor and respect.

Senator NUNN. Honor within the community?

Mr. CAFARO. The community and all over the city. Five boroughs,
I would say.

Senator NUNN. How can an organized group like that that carries
out all sorts of criminal activity including murder as you've described
here this morning be considered honorable?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, in our way of thinking and our way of life,
that is what it is to us. Being honorable, and respect. That is the
way we are brought up. That is the way you are born and raised in
these big Italian neighborhoods.

Senator NUNN. What about killing people? Is that considered
within the rules of honor?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, yes, as far as a lot of guys look to get called to
do killings; that's an honor to them. We do not kill innocent
people, Senator. In other words, for you to kill somebody, it has to
be a rat. He has to maybe fool around with somebody in your
family, another amico nostra's wife, or you fool around with junk,
or maybe your family got abused by someone.

Senator NUNN. In other words, when the rules are broken, you
feel that the person that breaks the rule deserves to be murdered?

Mr. CAFARO. Oh, when it comes to amico nostra's wife or junk, there is no talking.

Senator NUNN. In other words, what about any other rules?
Those various--

Mr. CAFARO. Well, as far as pornography and Government bonds
and the lesser things there, they sit down and talk; they warn you.

Senator NUNN. In other words, you are not supposed to fool with
junk, which is narcotics?

Mr. CAFARO. No junk, and amico nostra's wife.

Senator NUNN. No other member's wife.

Mr. CAFARO. Those are the two, there's no talking about it.

Senator NUNN. Those are the top two rules?

Mr. CAFARO. That is right.

Senator NUNN. You break those rules and you're a dead man?

Mr. CAFARO. There is no talking.

Senator NUNN. No question about it?

Mr. CAFARO. No question about it.

Senator NUNN. Now what about-you mentioned Government
bonds?

Mr. CAFARO. You cannot fool around with Government bonds,
pornography, there's a few others.

Senator NUNN. Why Government bonds? What's--

Mr. CAFARO. They do not want to get involved too much with, I
guess with the Government, with the bonds and the securities
there or something like that.

Senator NUNN. They believe that would be more rigidly enforced
by Federal law enforcement?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't know. I could not answer that, Senator. I do
not know why Government bonds. But we were told not to--

Senator NUNN. What about pornography?

Mr. CAFARO. Pornography, no pornography.

Senator NUNN. Why?

.Mr. CAFARO. Well, beeause, it is like being a pimp.

Senator NUNN. In other words, that is not honorable?

Mr. CAFARO. No, not as far as we are concerned.

Senator NUNN. So someone fooling around with Government
bonds or pornography, is that also, in your words, no talk? In other
words, is that--

Mr. CAFARO. No, that you can sit down and talk about.

Senator NUNN. You can talk about those two things?

Mr. CAFARO. Those two things you can sit down and--

Senator NUNN. That is not capital punishment?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator NUNN. But fooling around with someone's wife who is a
member of the organization--

Mr. CAFARO. Or junk.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. Or junk, is?

Mr. CAFARO. That's-there's no talking then.

Senator NUNN. How do you explain so many people being convicted
within the families of narcotics charges?

Mr. CAFARO. How do you explain it? How would I explain it?

Senator NUNN. Yes. In other words, you are saying that it was
against the rules for members to fool with narcotics. And yet time
after time it appears that they are--

Mr. CAFARO, If I got pinched for junk, I would want to stay in
jail; I wouldn't want tv come out on bail.

Senator NUNN. In other words, if your family found out that you
had been convicted of junk, you were a marked man?

Mr. CAFARO. That's right. Yes, Senator.

Senator NVNN. When you say you never kill innocent people,
now you mentioned a minute ago a fellow named, I believe it was
Nat Masselli--

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. You said he was not a member of
the family?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator NUNN. How do you define innocent?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, according to-he was supposed to have ratted
on this Philly about something; I don't know what.

Senator NUNN. So if you rat on someone, even if you are not a
member of the family, you are fair game?

Mr. CAFARO. Fair game.

Senator NUNN. So the killings are not confined simply to family
members?

Mr. CAFARO. No. If you are ratting, you rat on me, you are fair
game. Like me, I am fair game.

Senator NUNN. You are fair game now?

Mr. CAFARO. Oh, yes, no question about it.

Senator NUNN. So if you were to get out on the streets now, you
think you'd be a marked man?

Mr. CAFARO. Think? I know.

Senator NUNN. You know you would be?

Mr. CAFARO. Sure.

[B.]

Senator NUNN. What about right now, as far as you know, is the
Genovese family still in control of the International Longshoremen's
Association in the ports of New York?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. You know that for a fact?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Personal knowledge?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Who controls it for the family? Who controls this
for the family?

Mr. CAFARO. Dougie Rago. He's amico nostra with our brugad.
He's a union official there. He's been there for years.

Senator NUNN. He's a union official but also a made man?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Do you know that personally?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. How?

Mr. CAFARO. I was introduced to him. He was in my regime.

Senator NUNN. Part of your regime?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. You dealt with him?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Go ahead and tell us about that; as much as you
know about it.

Mr. CAFARO. About what?

Senator NUNN. About Rago and his--
Mr. CAFARO. Well, he's-like I say, he is a union official with the
ILA, and he's amico nostra with us. How long he is amico nostra, I
do not know. But I was introduced to him as amico nostra.
And he has been under the longshoremen-well, I call it the
longshoremen-with the ILA for years. And I had a conversation
one day with Sammy Santora, and I was not aware of how much
money was taken down at the ILA, via union officials.
And Sammy happened to mention to me one day that they were
taking down $400,000 to $500,000 a year. I says, you are kidding?
He says, no, that's what Dougie is pulling down, $400,000 to
$500,000 a year.
And that was the extent of it.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. You say $400,000 or $500,000 a year.
That money was coming to Doug Rago from--

Mr. CAFARO. According to Sammy, what he told me, yes.

Senator NUNN [continuing]. From union activities?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Was Rago keeping the money or sharing it with
the family?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't know what he was doing, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Was there ever a period of time when Rago
wanted to retire?

Mr. CAFARO. Not that I can recall. He was never around anyway.
He lives in Florida, I think.

[B.]

Senator ROTH. As a general rule, those that handle garbage are
controlled, influenced, by the LCN families?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, I would say--

Senator ROTH. Genovese family?

Mr. CAFARO. Genovese, all the families.

Senator ROTH. Do you know that from personal knowledge?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, sure.

Senator ROTH. What are the names of the companies?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I know-I do not know the names of the companies,
but I know a few guys that are in the garbage business.

Senator ROTH. Who are they?

Mr. CAFARO. Matty "the Horse" Ianiello. He's a caporegime with
us. He's in it. Tommy Mallo from the Bronx, they are in it. But
mostly that is controlled by the mob.

Senator ROTH. What other legitimate businesses are controlled--

Mr, CAFARO. Have they got?

Senator ROTH. What?

Mr. CAFARO. Have the wiseguys got?

Senator ROTH. Yes.

Mr. CAFARO. Trucking business.

Senator ROTH. The trucking business?

Mr. CAFARO. I would say trucking business.

Senator ROTH. Can you name any specific businesses?

Mr. CAFARO. No. No.

Senator ROTH. What other businesses?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I would say mainly garbage and trucking; that
is what I would say.

Senator ROTH. The LCN apparently has a prohibition against
trafficking in junk, or drugs. If so, why do we see so many members
of the LCN being prosecuted for drug trafficking?
Is there a change in the practices of the family? Are the younger
members of the LCN more inclined to be involved in drugs than
the older?

Mr. CAFARO. No, my opinion, I would not say that. I say the
money. The money is great. You can become rich overnight. That
is what I would say. Whether you are young, old, whatever; the
money.

Senator ROTH. Is drug trafficking in New York City controlled in
any large percentage by organized crime, despite its prohibition?

Mr. CAFARO. Senator, I cannot speak for other families. But I can
speak for my-well, it was my family. I can speak for the Genovese
family. No way in hell they would fool around with junk. There
might be sneakers; but as far as I know, none.

Senator ROTH· To your knowledge members of your family--

Mr. CAFARO. No. There might be sneakers; there might be guys
that are.

Senator ROTH. What about the other families? What about the
Bonanno family?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, we were told at one time, years back, not to
get involved with the Bonanno mob, because first of all they're in
the junk business-most of them were-and there is no organization
there. There is no--1 week it is a boss; next week it is somebody
else.
So we could not get involved with them, mainly for the junk.
They are disorganized.

Senator ROTH. Do you know if and how the LCN launders
money?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I guess through legitimate business people,
they would launder their money. I know I did one time with Roy
Cohn, a $200,000 gambling check, I laundered a check through him.

Senator ROTH. How did you do that?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, the fellow that owed me the money, he owed
me $200,000, he was a client of Roy Cohn's. So I said, make out a
check to Roy Cohn for $200,000, and I will get the money from him.
That is how I laundered it.

Senator ROTH. Did you ever get the money?

Mr. CAFARO. $50,000.

Senator ROTH. Out of how much?

Mr. CAFARO. Out of $200,000.

Senator ROTH. So he still owes you $150,000?

Mr. CAFARO. What, am I going to go on his grave and get it?

[B.]

Senator ROTH. It is my understanding that some of the bosses
have their own private armies aside from their families. Is that
true?

Mr. CAFARO. That was the days of Carlo Gambino. He had the
Cordeleones from Italy. He had a private mob which-no boss is
supposed to have a private mob. So when he died, Paul inherited
the Cordeleones from Sicily. And he had a private mob.

Senator ROTH. Was the private mob to protect himself from his
own family, if necessary?

Mr. CAFARO. I would say yes. For his own-that nobody knows, a
hidden mob, you called it. I would say yes.


--



Senator ROTH. What about its relationship to Sicilian organized
crime? Did you have any contact with Sicilians?

Mr. CAFARO. No. No, Senator.

Senator ROTH. Did your family?

Mr. CAFARO. They are not recognized by us.

Senator ROTH. Why is that?

Mr. CAFARO. Because first of all you do not know who they are.
They could come here and say, they're amico nostra from Sicily.
You could be being introduced to an agent or whoever. And they
are vicious.

Senator ROTH. What do you mean by vicious?

Mr. CAFARO. They got no respect for one another. And most of
them are in the junk business.

Senator ROTH. Now, you have reiterated several times that your family is not in the junk business. Do you see that changing in the future? There are those who say it is a $100 billion a year business.
Do you not see your family becoming involved?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, no, like I always said, money makes a blind
man see. So I do not know.

Senator ROTH. Now, you stated that the penalty for ilndividual
LCN members dealing with drugs is death.

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator ROTH. Now, you also said that there are some LCN members
who have been involved with drugs. Do you know of anyone
that has been given the death penalty because he violated the prohibition against drugs?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, like I said, I do not know about other families,
Senator. I can speak for the Genovese family. I never heard of it
with our family.

Senator ROTH. Isn't that sort of an empty threat, then?

Mr. CAFARO. There is a story years ago that I heard about Tony
Bender. He was supposed to be fooling around with junk at one
time. That is the time with Joe Cago-what is his name, Valachi?

Senator NUNN. Joe Cago was Valachi.

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, that is the only story I know, that he is missing
from then.

Senator ROTH. He is missing, and that was 25 years ago. But
there have been no recent cases?

Mr. CAFARO. Not that I know of.

Senator ROTH. My time is up, Mr. Chairman.

Senator NUNN. Thank you, Senator Roth.

Do you know, or have you heard anything, about Paul Castellano
or the Gambino family being involved in drug trade?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, from what I heard when I was in the streets,
as far as the rules, no fooling around with junk. I cannot speak for
another family.
But what I was made to understand was that Paul was taking
money from people that were around him in the junk business. He
would say, you cannot fool around with junk, but leave the shopping
bag, I will turn my head. In other words, leave the money.
That is all I know about that, Senator.

Senator NUNN. What is your opinion on why Paul Castellano
was murdered? Do you have a view on that?

Mr. CAFARO. A view? The greed. The greed. He would shake
down everybody. He would shake down his men. In my. opinion, he
would shake down his mother, too. That was Paul. That is what I
say got him killed.

Senator NUNN. In other words, he didn't treat others--

Mr. CAFARO. As long as Neil was alive.

Senator NUNN. Who was Neil?

Mr. CAFARO. Neil Dellacroce. As long as he was alive, I think
Paul would have still been alive today.

Senator NUNN. Why is that?

Mr. CAFARO. Because Neil was a guy that, he is the boss and that
is it. Paul was his boss, and that was the way it was going to be.

Senator NUNN. And Neil protected him?

Mr. CAFARO. He protected him, yes. That is what I was made to
understand.

Senator NUNN. Was he protecting him with physical means, or
was he protecting him because Neil was powerful himself and respected
him?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, Neil was powerful; he was the underboss. Neil
Dellacroce.

Senator NUNN. In other words, Neil's respect helped protect Paul
Castellano?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. How did Vincent Gigante become a power in the
Genovese family?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I say his power come from his regime. He has
got a powerful regime. He has got maybe 30 or 40 members. That is
without counting-he is affiliated with them.

[B.]

Mr. CAFARO. Well, S&A Concrete was looking for a job on, I do
not know if it was 35th Street or 36th Street, First Avenue, in New
York City. And a friend of mine, his contractor had the job.
So I went and see him, and tell him, listen, if you could, give
S&A the concrete work and do me a favor. So he says, yeah, why
not. So I got the job; he got the concrete work; and I got $240,000.

Senator NUNN. Now, who did you split that with?

Mr. CAFARO. Nobody.

Senator NUNN. That was yours?

Mr. CAFARO. Yeah.

Senator NUNN. Let me ask you this. You said in some good years
you made $1 million, $2 million dollars a year, and this $240,000;
you were handling an awfully lot of money, right?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Did you save any of it? Did you put it up?

Mr. CAFARO. Nope.

Senator NUNN. What happened to it?

Mr. CAFARO. You want to tell them, Eleanore? I spent it, Senator.
Just gave it away. I never got it all at once. I never had a big
lump of money. As I was making it, I was spending it: women, bartenders,
waiters, hotels. Just spending the money.

Senator NUNN. Spending, $400,000, $500,000, $600,OOO, $1,000,000 a
year?

Mr. CAFARO. Sure.

Senator NUNN. A million dollars a year in some years?

Mr. CAFARO. If I had it to spend, I'd spend $3 million.

Senator NUNN. How do you spend $3 million?

Mr. CAFARO. That's easy.

Senator NUNN. Do you not get tired going out every night of the
week?

Mr. CAFARO. No, sir.

Senator NUNN. Every night?

Mr. CAFARO. Three, four nights a week.

Senator NUNN. Did you loan money to people?

Mr. CAFARO. I loaned a lot of money to people. Never got it back.

Senator NUNN. Do you have a list? Did you keep up with it?

Mr. CAFARO. I had the list. I used to ask now and then. But they
say they're broke; they ain't got it; be a little patient, I will pay,
and this and that. And I never got it back. So when this happened
to me, how am I going to get it back?

Senator NUNN. That is gone now, I take it.

Mr. CAFARO. That is gone. That is all water under the bridge.

Senator NUNN. Did you operate strictly on a cash basis? When
you spent money, was it strictly cash?

Mr. CAFARO. When I went out spending? Yes, strictly cash.

Senator NUNN. Do you keep large amounts of cash on you?

Mr. CAFARO. I used to go out with $5,000 to $10,000 in my pocket.

Senator NUNN. Where did you keep the other cash that you had?

Mr. CAFARO. Leave it at somebody's house, somebody hold it for
me; $40,000, $50,000, $100,000, whatever I had.

Senator NUNN. You did-not operate through checking accounts,
or anything of that nature?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no. I wish I could have.

Senator NUNN. Strictly cash?

Mr. CAFARO. Strictly cash.

Senator NUNN. What is your understanding of a commission
meeting? Could you give us your defmition of the word "commission"
and "meeting"?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, from what I was made to understand, a commission
meeting was made-the commission was formed in the late
1930s, after the wars. The wars, what I mean, the wars with the
wiseguys. At the time, it was with the Sicilians. They were killing
all the Sicilians in the 1920s and 1930s, when Luciano was in
power.
So after they, I guess, killed whatever they had to kill, and whoever
went back to Sicily, Luciano, they had killed, what's his
name? Joe "the Boss" Masseria in New York? Joe the Boss. And he
was the boss of bosses at the time.
So when Luciano became in power, he says, it would not be fair
for me to be boss of bosses, because you got a family, he's got a
family, he's got a family. Why should I tell you what to do? We will
form a commission, and we will straighten out our grievances.
And the commission was only formed for the purpose of stopping
wars. For peace.

Senator NUNN. Do we have a boss of bosses now?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator NUNN. So the commission is the hierarchy?

Mr. CAFARO. Right. All the bosses sit at the commission.

Senator NUNN. They are on the same level then?

Mr. CAFARO. Right. And that is why the commission was formed
in the late 1930s.

Senator NUNN. Did you ever take Fat Tony Salerno to commission
meetings?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.
Senator NUNN. Would you tell us about that? I believe a couple of occasions. Tell us about the first one.

Mr. CAFARO. I took him twice to Staten Island in the luncheonette
there, I forget the name; it is on the paper there.
The first time I took him, it was me, Tony and Vinnie DiNapoli.
We met in this restaurant with Tommy Bilotti. He was caporegime
in Paul's, in the Gambino family, and we went to a house in Staten
Island. I don't know where the house was. We were driven there by
Tommy, and we went in and there was Paul, there was Tom Mix,
there was Ralph Scopo, Donny Shacks; there was about four or
five. But, anyway, there was, like I says, about five or six members
there.

Senator NUNN. Did you see them?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. You took Fat Tony there in the car?

Mr. CAFARO. No. We were driven there. I took him to Staten
Island in the luncheonette, but we were driven to this house.

Senator NUNN. Did you go to the meeting?

Mr. CAFARO. I went, but then we couldn't be at the meeting. We
stood upstairs and--

Senator NUNN. "We'" being who?

Mr. CAFARO. Me and Tommy Bilotti, and we stood, and there was
four or five more amico nostras up there, wiseguys, and we just sat
upstairs. And what was the discussion? Mostly about concrete and
construction.

Senator NUNN. Tony told you that?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. Concrete and--

Mr. CAFARO. Construction. Paul-every time there was a commission
meeting with Paul, it was always about business, money and
business.

Senator NUNN. What date was that, approximately, do you
know?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't remember, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Was that in the 1980's or--

Mr. CAFARO. 1984.

Senator NUNN. All right. Was there any other commission meeting
that you recall?

Mr. CAFARO. I went to another one after that; I drove Tony, but I
didn't go. I just went to the same restaurant, luncheonette, or
diner, whatever you want to call it, and we were waiting there.
Some wiseguy come and pick us up; ! forgot his name. And I didn't
go. He drove Tony there and I was waiting in the luncheonette.

Senator NUNN. You waited there for him?

Mr. CAFARO. I waited at the diner or the luncheonette, whatever
you want to call it.

Senator NUNN. Did the people like Tony that were going to the
meeting, Tony Salerno, did they worry about being trailed or the
FBI or anybody following them?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator NUNN. They didn't appear--

Mr. CAFARO. Usually when I drove Tony, I would look in my mirrors
and try to be careful and go different ways.

Senator NUNN. But they didn't appear to be worried about it?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator NUNN. Now, was that the second meeting where they
did think there was an FBI agent?

Mr. CAFARO. That was the third meeting. I wasn't there, I wasn't
present.

Senator NUNN. Tell us about that third meeting.

Mr. CAFARO. It was a meeting in Bari's on Houston Street.

Senator NUNN. Is that a restaurant or what is it?

Mr. CAFARO. No. They sell restaurant equipment, they sell restaurant
equipment, and Tony had an appointment down there. He
went down with Tony Ducks and Tom Mix. I picked him up to go
to the commission meeting there, and the meeting, from what I
was made to understand, there was Paul, there was Chin-there
was Paul, Chin, Joe Gallo, Donny Shacks, "Jerry Lang" Langella.

Senator NUNN. How many different families was that?

Mr. CAFARO. There was the four families there.

Senator NUNN. Again, which family was not there?

Mr. CAFARO. The Bonanno mob.

Senator NUNN. Was that because of the narcotics involvement?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. They weren't recognized as far as--

Senator NUNN. So they had four families there. What, a couple
of people from each family?

Mr. CAFARO. There was Jerry Lang and Donny Shacks for the
Colombo mob. There was-Tony was with Chin for the Genovese
mob. There was-for the Gambino mob was Paul and Joe Gallo,
and who was the other one? Luchese was Tony Ducks and Tom
Mix.

Senator NUNN. All right. Go ahead and tell us what you know
about that and what happened at that meeting. You weren't there,
but you found out about it later, right?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I was in the neighborhood and Tony had come
back early. Usually, a commission meeting, they last 4 or 5 hours,
6 hours, and he come to the neighborhood and I seen him. He's
huffing and puffmg. I says, you know, how come you're back so
early?

Senator NUNN. He was huffing and puffing?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. I says to him, how come you're back so early?
He says, no; he says, there was the agents down there. I says, no
kidding? He says, yes.

Senator NUNN. What agents?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, Federal agents.

Senator NUNN. Federal agents.

Mr. CAFARO. He says, there was the agents there; he said, we had
to get out. We, you know, went out. He says, I had to go through a
window. He says, they had to push me through the window to get
out. He couldn t fit; he was too fat.

Senator NUNN. He got stuck in the window?

Mr. CAFARO. He got stuck in the window and they had to push
him out, and that was it.

Senator NUNN. So they were worried about the agents at that
meeting?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, this Baldy Dom had-he's a caporegime with
us in our brugad, says he seen an agent outside. So rather than to
get pinched or the agents go in, they all ran.

Senator NUNN. Did you find out whether there really was an
agent out there later on?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I had asked Rick. He says there wasn't no
agents there, so who knows if there was· an agent or there wasn't
an agent? I really don't know.

Senator NUNN. Do you think-we've had a lot of cOllvictions of
the top members of various families in New York and elsewhere.
Do you think there still is a commission in New York?

Mr. CAFARO. To my knowledge, no, and I don't think there will
ever be a commission anymore.

Senator NUNN. Why is that?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you haven't got the Fat Tonys no more. You
haven't got the Tony Ducks, you haven't got the Tom Mixes. The
oldtimers are not there no more and I say there will never be another
commission.

Senator NUNN. You're still going to have the families, though,
aren't you?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you can talk boss to boss. You send your consigliere
there if there's a problem in the family.

Senator NUNN. In other words, you think it will be more boss-toboss,
one family to another, and not the whole group meeting together?

Mr. CAFARO. That's right.

Senator NUNN. Why would not their successors follow that pattern?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, why they won't follow the same pattern as the
oldtimers?

Senator NUNN. Yes.

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you haven't got the oldtimers there no more
and the young guys that are there now, they are not as levelheaded
as the oldtimers. They are not peace-minded. I don't think
they are peace-minded, which the oldtimers, there was nothing but
peace and if you--

Senator NUNN. Well, the purpose of the commission was peace
and you don't believe that that will be organized that way?

Mr. CAFARO. No, because you get a-from what I see of Johnny
Gotti-I met him in MCC, like I said. He ain't going to-he has got
an attitude that, hey, this is my brugad and nobody is going to tell
me what to do. Or Chin ain't going to make anybody tell him what
to do with his brugad.

Senator NUNN. Can you tell us what the consigliere does in the
overall family?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, the consigliere, he's the powerhouse, he's the
strength, because he takes care of all the beefs from the captains.
In other words, a captain can't go to a boss or the underboss unless
he goes to the consigliere.

Senator NUNN. So he's really the--

Mr. CAFARO. He's' the strength, he's the powerhouse.

Senator NUNN. The operating officer, so to speak?

Mr. CAFARO. Oh, yes. He-whatever decision he gives, that's it.
You don't go-unless it's rare that you want to go further. What I
mean by further, you want to go to the underboss or the boss.
But once the consigliere gives you his decision, that's it.

Senator NUNN. I understand that you have stated there are certain
new rules for admitting members to the LCN. Could you tell
us what those new rules are?

Mr. CAFARO. I didn't hear you, Senator.

Senator NUNN. I understand that you have stated that there are
certain new rules for admission to membership, for being straightened
out, for being a made man. Could you ten us what those new
rules are?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I don't know about new rules, but I know
there was a new rule put in about 10 years ago because years ago
they used to call in the books when you had to open the books to
straighten out a member. If you wanted to make a guy a member,
the books had to be opened. It got to a point where the books weren't open for maybe 15, 20
years. The brugads wouldn't open them and what was happening,
the regimes-a lot of oldtimers were dying and the regimes were
getting small.
So a captain with maybe 15, 20 men was down to 8 men, 7 men,
and they'were weakening their positions. So they instituted-if a
member dies, they can replace him with another member. That's
the only new rule I knew of.

Senator NUNN. So the books aren't closed now?

Mr. CAFARO. There's no more books.

Senator NUNN. No more books?

Mr. CAFARO. If somebody dies in the regime, he can be replaced
by another member.

Senator NUNN. So it's on automatic pilot now?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator NUNN. You are trying to maintain about the same
number of members?

Mr. CAFARO. That's the purpose of it.

Senator NUNN, But not have the membership go down?

Mr. CAFARO. Not have it go down. You're allowed seven men in a
regime and when they got to straighten out a member, they send
his name around. They give it to the consigliere, his name and
nickname, and it goes to the four families.
If there's any grievance against him or if maybe he's a rat or
something, if somebody knows there's something against him, they
would check it out, and that's the purpose of sending the name
around.

Senator NUNN. Were you told anything about the disappearance
of the Luchese family acting boss, Buddy Luongo?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator. When I was wearing the wire, I was
talking to Ralphie Tutino, and I wasn't aware of it because I think
I was out on bailor something. And he had told me this Buddy
Luongo had an appointment with this Little Vic in Brooklyn and
he went out there to meet him and he never came back. That's all
I know about that.

Senator NUNN. Who is Little Vic?

Mr. CAFARO. At the time I had knew him, he was the consigliere
in the Luchese mob.

Senator NUNN. Do you have any other name, any other name besides
Little Vic?

Mr. CAFARO. That's all I know him as, Little Vic.

Senator NUNN. Why are there so many people that you were
with all the time. that you don't really know their last names?

Mr. CAFARO. They usually give you their nicknames.

Senator NUNN. So you usually don't use last names?

Mr. CAFARO. We don't use last names, no.

Senator NUNN. Were you just known as Fish?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Where did that name come from?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't know; I got it since I'm 8 years old. Where,
how it came from, I really don't know.

Senator NUNN. Just a nickname?

Mr. CAFARO. Just a nickname.

[B.]

Senator ROTH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
You mentioned that both Chin Gigante and John Gotti were
claiming part. of the profits from the sale of the Bankers and Brokers
Building in Lower Manhattan. Can you explain in greater
detail how this came about and whether they did, in fact, receive
part of the profits of that sale?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, there was a situation there-when Paul was
alive, he had sold this property to S&A Concrete, Nick Auletta, I
think, for $4.5 million, with the understanding that he was going to
build a high-rise there.
Now, as it went along he didn't build a high-rise. He was selling
the property, I don't know, for $7, $8, $9 million. That's when Paul
didn't like the idea. In other words, he told him, I sold you the
building with the understanding that you would build a high-rise.
Now, he wanted to turn around and sell it, like I said, for $7 or $8
million; I really don't know.
But Paul wanted half of the profits on the sale of the building
and Tony got involved with that. Then he had never gotten nothing
from Nicky, Paul, but Tony got his share from the sale of the building.
Now, who wanted to get involved there was Chin, hut he put up
a little problem there from what Sammy was telling me, but it
didn't belong to him; it belonged to Tony, and that's how Tony
wound up with the money.
Now, as far as Gotti, I don't know if he got anything out of it; I
doubt it. That's my opinion. He was looking to take over Paul's
share if there was a share for him to-if he was entitled to any- thing.
Senator ROTH .. In view of the fact that many of the recent cases
brought by the Government were the result of wiretaps or bugs,
what do you think the LCN will do to take steps to avoid their conversations?

Mr. CAFARO. I know they are not going to talk in clubs anymore.
They are not going to talk in places they hang out. They are not
going to talk on phones. If anything, they will send a soldier to another
soldier or a captain to another captain, if there's going to be
the consigliere for a meeting, and tell them, say, Bobby or whoever,
I'll be at this restaurant tonight at 7 o'clock, to meet me there.
And that's how they would do it, or walk and talk in the streets.

Senator ROTH. Will they avoid meeting places they used in the
past?

Mr. CAFARO. Sure, yes.

Senator ROTH. Did you know that the Palma Boys Social Club
and the First Avenue Club were bugged, and if so, why did you and
others continue to hold conversations there?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, we were told they were bugged and I guess we
took it lightly. I figured me, gambling and bookmaking; I didn't
care.

Senator ROTH. Do you know how Santora knew about the bug?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, he had somebody telling him. From what
agency, I don't know.

Senator ROTH. What do you mean by "agency?"

Mr. CAFARO. Well, it could be a police department, it could be the
Government, it could have been anybody.

Senator ROTH. Does the LCN have many people in law enforcement
agencies or in public office under their influence or control?

Mr. CAFARO. As far as the past amico nostra, 14, 15 years, not
that I know of.

Senator NUNN. Do you know of any high governmental officials
that are being paid or cooperating illegally?

Mr. CAFARO. No, sir.

Senator NUNN. You don't?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator ROTH. You and others apparently knew in advance who
was going to be arrested or subpoenaed.

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, indictments and subpoenas.

Senator ROTH. How did you get that information?

Mr. CAFARO. My nephew, Sammy Santora.

Senator ROTH: Where did he get the information?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't know, Senator, but whatever information he
gave us, whatever he told us was on the money.

Senator ROTH. It was always accurate?

Mr. CAFARO. As far as indictments and subpoenas, it was on the
money.

Senator ROTH. Did you know in advance of your impending
arrest?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, Senator.

Senator ROTH. How far?

Mr. CAFARO. Two weeks before.

Senator ROTH. Two weeks?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator ROTH. How did you know? Who told you?

Mr. CAFARO. My nephew, Sammy Santora.

Senator ROTH. And your nephew gave no indication to you how
he acquired this information?

Mr. CAFARO. You can't ask, you don't ask.

Senator ROTH. You don't ask?

Mr. CAFARO. No.

Senator ROTH. When you got information that you were going to
be arrested, what action did you take?

Mr. CAFARO: I said let them come and pinch me. I wasn't interested
in going on the lamb.

Senator ROTH. And so you chose not to run?

Mr. CAFARO. No. I stood home.

Senator ROTH. Was that because you thought the charges would
be relatively minor, such as bookmaking?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I figure bookmaking and gambling, but I
didn't think I was going to be held a danger to the community. If I
thought that, I would have went on the lamb.

Senator ROTH. You've stated that it's no longer necessary for one
to kill to become a made guy. When did this rule change and why?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, as far as I can remember, 14 years ago when I
was-or 15 years ago when I was straightened out. A lot of guys,
you straighten them out for business because a lot of us don't understand
about construction, whatever, situations like that, electrical
work, contracting or plumbing.
We don't understand that there, so you straighten out a guy. You
make him an amico nostra just to take care of business that you
don't have to be there with him, because if you're not a made
member and you're sitting down, you can't sit down with a made
member.
So rather than' to be there-say, me, and I don't know nothing
about the construction, to go sit down with a beef about it, I don't
know what I'm talking about. So you straighten out people just for
business.

Senator ROTH. Now, earlier, you told me that you thought the
families would continue and that even though the younger members
were perhaps less disciplined, that through orientation, training,
whatever you want to call it, that they would become much
like the current members of organized crime.
Yet, at the same time you say you don't think the commission
will ever be recreated because there will never be new bosses like
the old. Isn't that somewhat inconsistent?

Mr. CAFARO. No, that's not inconsistent. Like I says, you get a
Gotti and a Chin. First of all, there's no need for a commission
with them because, like I says, it's not that there's the disrespect.
The respect is there; the respect will always be there.
But a Chin or a Gotti wouldn't need a committee. You do your
thing, I'll do my thing, and that's it. There's nothing taken away
from me and there's nothing taken from you.

Senator ROTH. Now, you mentioned earlier that your family had
no association or contact with Sicily. How about some of the other
criminal groups, such as the Colombians?

Mr. CAFARO. I don't know about them. Well, I have business with
the Cubans.

Senator ROTH. With the Cubans?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes.

Senator ROTH. What kind of business did you have with the
Cubans?

Mr. CAFARO. Number business.

Senator ROTH. What's that?

Mr. CAFARO. Numbers.

Senator ROTH. Numbers?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. I had Cubans with me.

Senator ROTH. Did any of these groups, like the Cubans, try to
intrude on your area of activity?

Mr. CAFARO. In what way, Senator?

Senator ROTH. Well, did they begin to try to take over some of
the racketeering or gambling business? .

Mr. CAFARO. No, no. They want to be with the wiseguys; they
don't want to be against them.

Senator ROTH. They wanted to work with you?

Mr. CAFARO. They want to work with you, yes, and I had a lot of
Cubans with me.

Senator ROTH. There has been no effort on the part of drug traffickers
to work with your family?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, if they were fooling around, you know, with
junk or something, I don't know about it, but who knows?

Senator ROTH. What rank did you hold in the Genovese family?

Mr. CAFARO. I was a soldier.

Senator ROTH. Why, particularly in view of your close relationship
with Fat Tony, did you not rise higher?

Mr. CAFARO. I didn't want the responsibility. I didn't want to be
responsible. I didn't want to-when he left on a Thursday morning,
I left with him. When you were a captain, you have to be there not
have to be there; you're on call 24 hours a day in case there's a
problem or beefs or whatever. So that wasn't for me. I wasn't interested.
But you can't refuse.

Senator ROTH. Mr. Cafaro, 2 weeks--.

Senator NUNN. Excuse me, Senator Roth. Would you yield?

Senator ROTH. Yes.

Senator NUNN. You say you can't refuse if you're asked to take
that responsibility?

Mr. CAFARO. That's right, you can't. The only reason why I got
away with it is because of Tony. There was a position open at the
time, the caporegime. I says, no, Tony, I'm not interested. He says
all right.

Senator NUNN. So it was handled informally?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, it was informal. If I would have said--

Senator NUNN. Tony protected you when he needed you and you
didn't want it?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. If, say, Chin would have asked me, I had to
accept. When the consigliere tells you, you have to accept, yes.
Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this question. We had Angelo Lonardo
testify before us a few days ago and he said that if he had
his life to live again, he would not repeat his mob activities because,
as he said, it created too many headaches. By "headaches," I
think he was referring to arrests, jail terms, and so forth.
If you had the chance to do it all over again, would you do things
differently or would you again be a member of the family?

Mr. CAFARO. In my honest opinion, I would be a member of the
family, but I would do it in a different way. I wouldn't be close to
Tony or any boss or any consigliere. I'd just stay by myself, a club
or whatever, and that's it.

Senator ROTH. But don't you, as a member of a family, have to
do what they tell you to do?

Mr. CAFARO. Sure.
Senator ROTH. Well, then, how can you stay--

Mr. CAFARO. In other words, stay by myself, don't stay with--you're
not,supposed to be with the bosses anyway.

Senator ROTH. In other words, you think you were too close to
the bosses?

Mr. CAFARO. Too close, that's a fact.

Senator ROTH. But why would you want to be a member again?
You say that your life is in danger now, is that correct?

Mr. CAFARO. That's the way I chose it. What can I do? But it's
not good and it's not bad.

Senator ROTH. Let me ask you this. Who do you think, let's say 5
years from now, will be boss of your family?

Mr. CAFARO. If anything happens to Chin?

Senator ROTH. Yes.

Mr. CAFARO. I would say Bobby Manna.

Senator ROTH. Bobby who?

Mr. CAFARO. Bobby Manna.
Senator ROTH. Now, who is he?

Mr. CAFARO. He's the consigliere now.

Senator ROTH. After 36 years of friendship with Tony Salerno,
during which time I think you said that he was like a father to
you, why did you agree to cooperate with law enforcement?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, when I was in MCC for the 7 months, I was
having a lot of trouble with Tony over some moneys, and lowed
him, I think, $65,000 that I had used of his money, not knowing I
wasn't going to get bail when we got arrested.
If I would have got bail, there would have been no problem with
the money, and I had owed him $65,000. And when you get pinched
and you're in jail, no bail, nobody wants to loan you money anymore;
they look the other way.
So I had owed him $65,000 and we were arguing every day over
the money, but I paid him the money. And we had some slot machines
going; I had some slot machines in the streets and I used to
give Tony a third.
So one day I told him he's got no more revenues coming from the
slot machine; whatever comes from there, I'm keeping. And he
says, no; he says, it's my business. I says, no, it's not your business,
it's mine; I created the business.
So he says to me, he says, well, he says, I'll pick up this cane and
I'll hit you with it. So I says to him, well, that's the biggest mistake
you'll make in your life if you ever pick up that cane to me. And
that's how I think I turned.

Senator ROTH. Do you have any family?

Mr. CAFARO. Do I have a family?

Senator ROTH. Personal family, yes. Are you married?

Senator NUNN. Senator Roth, I don't think he wants to--

Senator ROTH. I think that's all the questions I have at this time,
Mr. Chairman.

Senator NUNN. Thank you, Senator Roth.
When you had that argument with Fat Tony and he threatened
to hit you with a cane, did that lead you to believe you might be on
his hit list?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator NUNN. In other words, how do you distinguish between a
threat like that--

Mr. CAFARO. Well, you know, when a relationship like me and
Tony for 30-something years-I thought it was a father.and son re lationship, but when it came to the money, I said for money, is this
what-I would have killed him; I would have killed him in MCC.

Senator NUNN. You would have killed him if what?

Mr. CAFARO. If he would have picked up the cane.

Senator NUNN. Even though he'd been like a father to you?

Mr. CAFARO. That's right. The disrespect was there. There wasn't
respect anymore, not when you're going to argue for $65,000. I gave
that out in tips. I got to argue for $65,000? Let him use it, let him
use it all. Whatever I had, he could have had.

Senator NUNN. He had insulted you at that stage?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes. Well, from-we were there about three
months. He started asking, you know, about moneys and this and
that, whatever the situation was. So it was all over moneys.

Senator NUNN. Let me ask you two or three other questions.
You've mentioned a few unions this morning. Do you know other
unions that have not been mentioned this morning by you in your
testimony here that are controlled in New York City by LCN families?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, there's the Kennedy Airport; that's controlled
by the Luchese mob. That's controlled by them, and as far as the
garment center, from what I know, the whole four families are involved
with the unions in the garment center. That's what I know
about that.

Senator NUNN. Is that done by territory? How do they decide
what family controls what?

Mr. CAFARO. Well, I don't know. I wouldn't say it's territories;
it's not the question of territories. If you got certain houses down
there-what I was made to understand by "houses" is these lofts
that make the clothes, dresses, coats, or whatever.
So if you got four or five houses in one building, that's yours, and
the union down there controls all that there. But I don't know too
much about the garment center, Senator, as far as the unions, you
know.

[B.]

Senator NUNN. Mr. Cafaro, nearly 25 years ago an individual
named Joe Valachi testified before this Subcommittee about the existence
of La Cosa Nostra in the United States. Did you ever meet
Mr. Valachi?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, I knew Joe Cago, Valachi.

Senator NUNN. You call him Joe Cago?

Mr. CAFARO. Joe Cago, yes.

Senator NUNN. When did you meet him? Tell us about that.

Mr. CAFARO. Well, he was born and raised in Harlem. He was
born and raised in Harlem and he was an amico nostra in our
brugad. He was with Tony-at the time, Tom Rena. I don't know
who Tom Rena was, but he was a captain, and from there he was
with Tony Bender.
And I had a candy store, a club, on 115th Street between First
and Second Avenue, and he had come down one day with Joey
Pagano and I was friendly with Joey. How are you? How do you
feel? Fine. How are you? One word to another, he says, you got gambling here? I says, yes,
I got blackjack and poker games in the back, you know. He says,
listen, he says, maybe I could send some guys down and play. So I
says, for what? He says, well, he says, we'll send five or six players
and we'll take a piece of the game.
Right away, he's looking to shake me down. So I didn't say nothing.
I says, no, I says, we don't need no players here. I got--I'm
doing all right the way I am. Well, he says, think about it. He says,
we'll send some players.
What I should have said to him then is mention Tony's name,
Fat Tony; listen, I'm with Fat Tony, because I knew what he was
leading up to. So I says, all right, I'll let you know tomorrow, and I
went and see Tony and I told him.
He said I close the club or the candy store, whatever you want to
call it; close it up, he says, and come and stay here. The next day, I
seen Joe Cago. I says, no; I'm closing the joint. And I went and
stayed with Tony. I opened up a club over there. And that was it,
the first time-not the first time I met Joe Cago. I seen him a few
times.

Senator NUNN. Did you have any other relationship with Valachi?

Mr. CAFARO. No, no.

Senator NUNN. Were you a made member at the time he testified
before this Subcommittee?

Mr. CAFARO. No. That was 25 years ago, Senator.

Senator NUNN. Do you recall that? Did you follow it?

Mr. CAFARO. Yes, yes. I was watching it on television.

Senator NUNN. What was the reaction in the family based on
that testimony? What was that--

Mr. CAFARO. What was my reaction?
Senator NUNN. Your reaction and the reaction of others that you
knew. Did you hear them talk about that, Fat Tony or any of them,
later on?

Mr. CAFARO. No. I was in the bar. No, Tony wasn't there; a few
people. He's a rat. What's the reaction?

Senator NUNN. Yes.

We appreciate very much your being here, Mr. Cafaro. You have
given us a lot of interesting information this morning. We appreciate
your attorney being here and we appreciate your cooperation
before this Subcommittee.

Mr. CAFARO. Thank you, Senator.

Mr. EAMES. Thank you very much.

[Snakes]

I've read these transcripts many times but haven't in quite a while. Thanks, B. Do you take issue with any of the things Cafaro is saying here? I know there are a few inconsistencies, such as how he claims he was made in 1974 even though the books were closed at that time.

[B.]

I've read these transcripts many times but haven't in quite a while. Thanks, B. Do you take issue with any of the things Cafaro is saying here? I know there are a few inconsistencies, such as how he claims he was made in 1974 even though the books were closed at that time.

I don't really take issue with too much of it. He says Vic Amuso was the consigliere at the time they killed Luongo, but he'd have no reason to deliberately lie about this -- just a mistake.

Speaking of consigliere, he makes it out to be the most important position in the family. I wonder if the Genovese have traditionally given the consigliere a lot more emphasis or if Cafaro's view of the position had more to do with Bobby Manna, who was a real powerhouse during his time at consigliere.

Though it was just his opinion, he seems to have been right about the Commission more or less dissolving permanently and families operating "boss-to-boss".

He seems to think that Joe Valachi's first captain in the Genovese family was "Tom Rena" (Reina), probably not realizing that Reina was boss of his own family and that Valachi didn't join up with them until his father-in-law Reina was dead. His story about Valachi and Joe Pagano trying to muscle in on his action is good, though -- you don't come across too many stories from people who actually knew Valachi on the street.

One thing that I take from this is that even though Salerno wasn't the official boss, he seems to have had near-complete control over his own wing of the family. Some of the discussions about the Genovese hierarchy keep coming back to this -- the way that family is set up has allowed for them to exist with several autonomous branches that aren't in competition with one another. He makes it clear that Gigante was the absolute authority in that family, but that Gigante didn't throw his weight around and guys like Salerno could make decisions on their own.

And last, what really confuses me is this mention of Carlo Gambino having his own "private army", the "Cordeleones from Italy". He says that Paul Castellano inherited them when Carlo died and that no boss is supposed to have his own private army. I have to assume he's referring to the Palermitani zips who were loyal to Carlo and Paolo Gambino, but to the best of our knowledge they were treated as normal associates / members and not anything too far out of the ordinary. Does "Cordeleone" = Corleone? No clue what he's talking about.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Good posts B.

I've always been curious as to why when listing activities which are forbidden (Narcotics etc), 'Governement Bonds' are regularly cited.

Anyone know the reason for this?

[B.]

Good posts B.

I've always been curious as to why when listing activities which are forbidden (Narcotocs etc), 'Governement Bonds' are regularly cited.

Anyone know the reason for this?

They try to avoid federal crimes, especially financial ones involving government bonds and counterfeiting. Counterfeiting did a lot of damage to the early bosses Morello and Lupo, so I would guess that was when they outlawed it. Not sure if there is a history of manipulating bonds but I assume so.

There were also rules against messing with the stock market I believe, but as we know some families got pretty heavy into pump-and-dump schemes in the 90s.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Cheers B.

[Doobeez]

Never read the full transcript before, thanks, B.

-found quite interesting some of the Philly info he mentions, as well as Phil Testa meeting in NY after the move on Bruno. Never knew or read that before.