"The what ifs"

[brianwellbrock]

All the stupid discussions on the BB with all these scenarios got me to thinking. To answer some of the what if's of the most popular topics.

If Neil didnt die?
He would of gotten 100 years.

If Paul didnt die?
100 years and quite possibly only had 3 months left on the streets, by '87 TG and TB are running the show while Gotti is on trial himself.

If Bruno didnt die?
In prison by '83. Operation gangplank

If Testa didnt die?
Prison by '83, along with all the most senior guys. Had the unrest not happened Scarfo could of still slided into the spot than.

If Orena did become boss?
He would of went down soon enough for the Ocera murder, his '92 indictment was already in the works before the shooting started.

If Merlino didnt go to war?
Stanfa would of gone away anyways, and maybe Merlino and his guys would of been on the tapes and went down too.

If Salvie Testa didnt get killed?
Hed be doing 45 years.

[B.]

One of the biggest "what ifs" to me is if Giaccone and Indelicato took over the Bonanno family. Not saying that it would have gone smoothly over the last 30+ years, but we would still be looking at a much different family and may have never seen the massive meltdown of the early/mid-2000s.

[brianwellbrock]

Whos knows if they would of been roped up in '82 feom the Brasco fall out. Really Brasco didnt do much damage at all. By '84 the Bonnanos were continuing to murder guys, makes guys, make money, not somethong a decimated organization would be doing. Regardless yeah, had they lasted theough the 80's than maybe people like Coppa, Canterella, Vitale, Tarraglione wouldnt of been in such high positions.

[B.]

Whos knows if they would of been roped up in '82 feom the Brasco fall out. Really Brasco didnt do much damage at all. By '84 the Bonnanos were continuing to murder guys, makes guys, make money, not somethong a decimated organization would be doing. Regardless yeah, had they lasted theough the 80's than maybe people like Coppa, Canterella, Vitale, Tarraglione wouldnt of been in such high positions.

It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.

Aside from the psychological impact, though, you're right that it didn't affect the rest of the family that much.

Looking at the big picture...

- Massino, Napolitano, Giaccone, Indelicato, Trinchera, and the zips all unite against Galante in support of Rastelli and all of them get promoted to captain if they aren't captains already.

- A couple of years pass and it becomes clear that the imprisoned Rastelli is just a figurehead, so Giaccone/Indelicato/Trinchera get the zips support to challenge the Rastelli loyalists Massino and Napolitano.

- The zips switch sides and Massino/Napolitano/zips are unified when they wipe out the Giaccone/Indelicato/Trinchera faction.

- Napolitano and Massino begin competing to be Rastelli's number one guy on the street, with the intention of being his heir apparent. Napolitano becomes vulnerable through the Brasco revelation and is killed.

- Massino becomes the top guy on the street and Rastelli gets out, but Massino has to hit the road not long after. Fortunately for him, the zips get hit with indictments and one of the top zip captains Bonventre gets eliminated for his own alleged issues, securing the spot for Massino.

- From there, Massino can pick and choose from some of the more passive elements and install his own guys as the new powers in the family. Flash forward a number of years and Massino has the last remaining zip power (Sciascia) killed.

Pretty crazy how they were all on the same side at one point and it just split off into smaller and smaller fractions until just one of the original players remained.

[brianwellbrock]

While Massino was good at keeping himself out of trouble in the 90's, and he seemed to be veey cautious, he mostly relied on his guys not rolling. He put those close to him on the front lines and had the mentality of they wont talk. Their were plenty of indictments against them up until '03 but really the only dofference between him and the other families is that he covered his own tracks well. And it obviously came back to haunt him.

[Lupara]

It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.

Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...

[Pete]

All the stupid discussions on the BB with all these scenarios got me to thinking. To answer some of the what if's of the most popular topics.

If Neil didnt die?
He would of gotten 100 years.

If Paul didnt die?
100 years and quite possibly only had 3 months left on the streets, by '87 TG and TB are running the show while Gotti is on trial himself.

If Bruno didnt die?
In prison by '83. Operation gangplank

If Testa didnt die?
Prison by '83, along with all the most senior guys. Had the unrest not happened Scarfo could of still slided into the spot than.

If Orena did become boss?
He would of went down soon enough for the Ocera murder, his '92 indictment was already in the works before the shooting started.

If Merlino didnt go to war?
Stanfa would of gone away anyways, and maybe Merlino and his guys would of been on the tapes and went down too.

If Salvie Testa didnt get killed?
Hed be doing 45 years.

Salvie would be out by now with all the other guys that got those kinda sentences in the 80s as they still had fed parole and you didn't have to do 85 percent of your sentence. Would have certainly went away though

[dixiemafia]

Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...

I would say yes. Now if Rusty could pick successors I think it might have been Massino as boss and Sonny Black as UB which might not have worked but IMHO I think he was closer to Massino especially when Big Joey was coming up with those food carts.

While Massino did plan the actual hit he wasn't alone, Sonny Black and crew had a hand in it as well which I think they bagged the bodies for Gotti and crew to bury if I remember correctly or it might have just been clean up I forget.

But at the time early on I do think Rusty relied on Sonny Black more to "get things done" and used Joey for collecting his money and protecting his money so they both had their roles.

But I'm still learning about the Massino years so I'm probably way off

[HairyKnuckles]

I don´t think you´re way off Dix.

Already while Pistone was undercover, tensions started to brew between Sonny Black and Massino. It´s mentioned in the Brasco book, (somewhere at the end). It seems to me that the both of them jockeyd for position and competed for Rastelli´s attention. Sonny Black eyed the position of Consigliere in the Family, at least that´s what Pistone said. But Sonny´s ambitions were enough to make Massino feel insecure about one day taking over from Rastelli. I agree with B, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill Sonny Black.

[Pogo The Clown]

Correct HK. According to Pistone it was Lefty (who I believe was Acting Capo by then) who told him that Sonny was trying to become the new Consiglieri. If the Brasco thing hadn't gone down he probably would have gotten it when Rastelli got out. Massino would have probably gotten the UderBoss slot as he ended up getting. Or it could have been the other way around. But them two along with Rastelli would have been the administration in my view.


Pogo

[Snakes]

More "what ifs?":

If Turk Torello didn't die of cancer in '78?
Aiuppa eventually retires and Cerone takes over as boss with Turk as #2. Probably gets caught up in Strawman and sent to prison. Becomes boss upon release and possibly indicted in Family Secrets (Haggerty murder). It would be interesting to see if he would have been indicted as there was no corroborating evidence placing him at the scene of Haggerty's murder other than Nick's testimony, a la DiFronzo and Marino at the Spilotros' murders.

If Joe Ferriola didn't die of cancer in '89?
He gets indicted in the big Rocky Infelise case and goes to prison for life.

[B.]

It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.

Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...

I don't know enough to compare their relationships to Rastelli, but I do know that Napolitano had a history with Rastelli that went back farther than most of the books/movies seem to suggest. There was a longstanding loyalty and in many ways Napolitano was more of a "senior" figure in the family even though he was only made a short time before Massino and they had been capos for the same amount of time.

Massino and Napolitano were definitely equal players in the fight against the other faction and both participated in the murder to secure Rastelli's spot.

[Angelo Santino]

It definitely hurt Sonny Black and his crew. He would have gone to prison if he hadn't been killed, and though it seems that his murder had as much to do with the various power plays going on in the family, the Brasco thing was definitely used as one reason to kill him. If not for Brasco, he very well could have been the next boss instead of Massino.

Do you believe Napolitano was closer to Rastelli than Massino? It was Massino who organized the killing of the three rebellious capos and secured power for Rastelli...

I don't know enough to compare their relationships to Rastelli, but I do know that Napolitano had a history with Rastelli that went back farther than most of the books/movies seem to suggest. There was a longstanding loyalty and in many ways Napolitano was more of a "senior" figure in the family even though he was only made a short time before Massino and they had been capos for the same amount of time.

Massino and Napolitano were definitely equal players in the fight against the other faction and both participated in the murder to secure Rastelli's spot.

Most of the so-called factual narration came from Pistone, whose Donnie Brasco book in the 1980's differed greatly with his more recent works like Unfinished Business. Personally I tend to believe Donnie Brasco more than his recent stuff which seems "updated" so he could cash in on the Sopranos wave. For god sakes he appeared in sunglasses and a leather jacket to meet up in a NY street to discuss whether Jackie Jr was gonna get whacked for robbing Ralph Ciffaretto's card game at the end of S3. Why this matters is because his story changes from book to book, certain members are given new ranks and further info is expanded upon like Nick Rizzuto being capo of Montreal, something a low level associate would not be privy to in the 70's. Napolitano's role has changed from Pistone's viewpoint to looking for the consig position to being unofficially over everyone (after the 3 capo murders) to being officially acting boss. I mean, either you know or you don't know. And maybe Pistone's inflating his personal info on positions. No doubt he was involved in crimes with these guys, but the 70's was still a hush hush time about LCN. If Sonny Black was a guy to hand over his jewellry and go to his death over violating mob protocol, why would he violate mob protocol by telling private LCN information to an associate? I'm sure things spilled out in conversation but what I don't think is that Pistone could have asked him about the family history, who all the captains were or anything else that didn't relate to current things like Mirra starting a sit over him. It was a need to know basis more so than today is all I'm saying and Pistone's details keep changing. He's a source but he's allowed Hollywood to taint his honesty. At the height of the Sopranos he even suggested he was ready to kill Sonny Red's kid. Argue the validity of that, it's still starkly different from his DB days and testifying at the 25TAV hearings as "just an FBI agent doing my job." Quite frankly I think he's cashed in and historic validity is secondary to the story. At its basic: Brasco was under Lefty who was under Black, but in my opinion from what I've seen associates are rarely given the honest inside info. And he quotes Ruggierio as quoting Galante to be the boss. It took 20 years for higher informants (Vitale, actual made members) to dispute this fact. And back before he did it, Pistone was quoted (because he had nothing else to do) on record as saying "Massino is the last of the oldtimers. He'll never flip." I'm sorry but he's the mob's Dick Morris: relevant in his time, irrelevant today in terms of authenticity.

[phatmatress777]

I never liked Donnie brasco/ pistone he just comes off as such a dry humored wanna be have any of you guys ever listened to the wire taps ok YouTube between him and lefty? He just sounds so Whiney


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[B.]

I have very ambivalent, sometime conflicting thoughts on Brasco. Absolutely great book for both information and entertainment, and I think it was that book that really kickstarted my interest in the Bonannos more than any other NY family. A lot of what he said in that book was later confirmed but I also think some of it is wrong, both because he got slanted information, misinterpreted things, and just did some guesswork. I think it's an accurate viewpoint of what an associate sees of the organization from the outside, though -- they absorb a lot of information, but can't get everything right, which is why even made members can't be trusted 100% when they believe they're telling the truth. Everyone gets things a little bit twisted, no matter who they are. When you throw in the fact that some people deliberately lie, that fucks everything up way more.

A lot of his conversations with Lefty for example show that Lefty tried to communicate some of the details of Cosa Nostra's structure and rules in an indirect way, which I think is common between members and associates. It's a way for members to gossip and pass on info to their buddies without officially breaking the rules. He found other ways of saying things that didn't always say the absolute truth, but more or less gave Pistone the idea. But like the game of telephone, I think Pistone misinterpreted some things. With the whole "Galante as boss" thing, you have to figure that Ruggiero was a soldier in Mike Sabella's crew, which was a key part of the faction that supported Galante as boss. Galante was the guy who made Ruggiero and in his world, Galante was at the top of the chain. Maybe he did know that Rastelli was the official boss and just didn't see the point in explaining it to Pistone since it didn't matter. Or maybe he did think Galante was the boss because he followed whatever Sabella told him and didn't hear much street gossip specifically about "who is in charge".

I've never actually read Pistone's follow-up books, but I'm of the opinion that he greatly enjoyed being a wiseguy and that he didn't just cash in on the whole "sunglasses" act for money, but also so that he could keep the Brasco character going. I think other agents who had been in his position would have been happy to retire and go about their lives out of the spotlight, but he found ways to put himself into "mafia pop culture" again and again... even though the whole "Donnie Brasco" thing from beginning to end caused his family immense distress/grief! I don't have anything to back this up, but reading between the lines I do think he was an FBI agent who went a bit rogue which was becoming a major issue for his supervisors. Naturally they aren't going to say that, as in the end it was great publicity for them and a major insult to Cosa Nostra.

I think it's ridiculous when Pistone has commented on Montreal, especially his more recent testimony up there. What I would love to hear him talk more about is how in the original book he says a member from Montreal came down to New York to support Tony Mirra in his heroin beef against Brasco. How and why would a Montreal member come down to support an unpopular, dangerous guy like Mirra in a beef with an associate in another crew? Who was that member? The only thing I can figure, if it's true, is that Mirra's capo Cesare Bonventre recruited a friend from Montreal, as he was friends with the crew up there. Still, it's a very dangerous game and regardless of the Montreal situation, I do believe that Brasco was causing a lot of controversy in the family due to his status with Napolitano and his ability to earn an carry himself well. I 100% believe that Napolitano wanted to make Brasco, possibly with the longterm goal of putting him in charge of the family's Florida operations. That's just my own theory, nothing more.