Who had D B killed?

[mpl0215]

I was recently watching the Mikey Scars pod where he breaks down the Ravenite tapes and he seems pretty convinced that Sammy wanted D.B. killed so he can take over his union. Listening to Sammy tell it ,he wanted no part of it ,he was trying to slow things down ,it didn't make any sense him talking subversive etc..And I know Angelo was involved in the plot with him owning D.B a 100 grand .I tend to believe Gotti's side on this ,why would he be telling Frankie Loc that Sammy came to him to whack D.B
when we assume Frankie Loc knew the story .Sammy seems to have a history of killing ppl and taking over their rackets.

[Guest]

You must be a little new to the field…welcome to the rabbit hole. Any thing Sammy Gravano says needs to be taken with a grain of salt. John Gotti ultimately made the decision. Angelo Ruggerio and Sammy both contributed to DBs demise. Angelo owed 250k and Sammy wanted the union.

[newera_212]

I've read Underboss twice and both times were ages ago (the first time was when it came out and I was barely a teenager) so I don't recall it exactly, but I remember Sammy talking it in the book and making it sound like he just "went along with it" and reluctantly decided to take Ruggerio's word for whatever reason. Ruggerio was allegedly the one who set everything off.

I would bet heavy that he was a lot more involved with it than he claimed in Underboss, and would also bet heavy that Gotti made a weighed and thorough decision about it, and he wasn't simply bamboozled by Sammy (and Angelo) or backed into a corner (who on earth would back him into a corner and force him to decide anything?)

DB seemed to be a holdover from another era that they had no use for. A Captain with no crew, who has a bunch of money and rackets all to himself. The administration just changed, Sammy almost certainly wanted the Union himself and probably convinced Gotti he could do it better and have it be even more profitable. Others almost certainly wanted his loan book and anything else that they could glom on to. A guy like DB who really wasn't that close with the new admin, was a Castellano era guy, had no crew and no big following, and a ton of money/rackets - seems like a logical "choice" for any new renegade admin to target a guy like that...

Don't want to get into a whole "breaking down the Gotti tapes" thing especially since someone who actually knew Gotti just did that, very well, on YouTube - but when Gotti is ranting about how they lied to him about DB and he went along with it anyway, it seems like he was saving face and placing blame elsewhere. Again, he doesn't seem like the type who'd be forced into anything by anyone - he was probably stewing about Sammy and the state of affairs and was thinking about how he may not have had problems like that and complaints from companies when DB was running that Union. It probably hit him that it wasn't a great decision and he was blaming others instead of saying "I fucked up on that one"

[Shellackhead]

I've read Underboss twice and both times were ages ago (the first time was when it came out and I was barely a teenager) so I don't recall it exactly, but I remember Sammy talking it in the book and making it sound like he just "went along with it" and reluctantly decided to take Ruggerio's word for whatever reason. Ruggerio was allegedly the one who set everything off.

I would bet heavy that he was a lot more involved with it than he claimed in Underboss, and would also bet heavy that Gotti made a weighed and thorough decision about it, and he wasn't simply bamboozled by Sammy (and Angelo) or backed into a corner (who on earth would back him into a corner and force him to decide anything?)

DB seemed to be a holdover from another era that they had no use for. A Captain with no crew, who has a bunch of money and rackets all to himself. The administration just changed, Sammy almost certainly wanted the Union himself and probably convinced Gotti he could do it better and have it be even more profitable. Others almost certainly wanted his loan book and anything else that they could glom on to. A guy like DB who really wasn't that close with the new admin, was a Castellano era guy, had no crew and no big following, and a ton of money/rackets - seems like a logical "choice" for any new renegade admin to target a guy like that...

Don't want to get into a whole "breaking down the Gotti tapes" thing especially since someone who actually knew Gotti just did that, very well, on YouTube - but when Gotti is ranting about how they lied to him about DB and he went along with it anyway, it seems like he was saving face and placing blame elsewhere. Again, he doesn't seem like the type who'd be forced into anything by anyone - he was probably stewing about Sammy and the state of affairs and was thinking about how he may not have had problems like that and complaints from companies when DB was running that Union. It probably hit him that it wasn't a great decision and he was blaming others instead of saying "I fucked up on that one"

Why are guys captains with no crews?

[newera_212]

I've read Underboss twice and both times were ages ago (the first time was when it came out and I was barely a teenager) so I don't recall it exactly, but I remember Sammy talking it in the book and making it sound like he just "went along with it" and reluctantly decided to take Ruggerio's word for whatever reason. Ruggerio was allegedly the one who set everything off.

I would bet heavy that he was a lot more involved with it than he claimed in Underboss, and would also bet heavy that Gotti made a weighed and thorough decision about it, and he wasn't simply bamboozled by Sammy (and Angelo) or backed into a corner (who on earth would back him into a corner and force him to decide anything?)

DB seemed to be a holdover from another era that they had no use for. A Captain with no crew, who has a bunch of money and rackets all to himself. The administration just changed, Sammy almost certainly wanted the Union himself and probably convinced Gotti he could do it better and have it be even more profitable. Others almost certainly wanted his loan book and anything else that they could glom on to. A guy like DB who really wasn't that close with the new admin, was a Castellano era guy, had no crew and no big following, and a ton of money/rackets - seems like a logical "choice" for any new renegade admin to target a guy like that...

Don't want to get into a whole "breaking down the Gotti tapes" thing especially since someone who actually knew Gotti just did that, very well, on YouTube - but when Gotti is ranting about how they lied to him about DB and he went along with it anyway, it seems like he was saving face and placing blame elsewhere. Again, he doesn't seem like the type who'd be forced into anything by anyone - he was probably stewing about Sammy and the state of affairs and was thinking about how he may not have had problems like that and complaints from companies when DB was running that Union. It probably hit him that it wasn't a great decision and he was blaming others instead of saying "I fucked up on that one"

Why are guys captains with no crews?

No idea - If I had to guess it would be money primarily, and maybe a little bit of personal favoritism. If you are an administration member and have a guy like DiBernardo who's making a ton of money and has a lot going on, why keep him as a solider have him under another captain, essentially adding another layer of payouts between you and the direct source of money? Instead, if he's a captain without a crew, he's dealing directly with the administration - no potential for bad messages and miscommunication, less potential for money going missing that is supposed to be going to you.

The Gotti admin killed the guy, so what I said above is a moot point in regards to them, but IIRC DiBernardo was a captain under Castellano (or even earlier?? anyone know?) and it wouldn't surprise me if the admin wanting to be more hands on with DiB's money and rackets was the reason for it

[Pogo The Clown]

but IIRC DiBernardo was a captain under Castellano (or even earlier?? anyone know?)

He was promoted to Captain by Gotti.


Pogo

[newera_212]

but IIRC DiBernardo was a captain under Castellano (or even earlier?? anyone know?)

He was promoted to Captain by Gotti.


Pogo

Thanks - looks like I had it backwards lol.

Oh well - I still suspect money & greed were at the root of DiBernardo's promotion . I know there is the Matty Madonna example too where they had plans for him to be a part of the Admin but weren't allowed to promote someone from Solider to (acting) Boss

Didn't Gotti kind of do similar move Tommy Gambino too, like he did with DiBernardo... to a degree? Not make him a captain without a crew, but bump him up (favoritism/reward/being closer to his money) to Captain and assign really low maintenance, older, more quasi-legit soldiers?

[Shellackhead]

I've read Underboss twice and both times were ages ago (the first time was when it came out and I was barely a teenager) so I don't recall it exactly, but I remember Sammy talking it in the book and making it sound like he just "went along with it" and reluctantly decided to take Ruggerio's word for whatever reason. Ruggerio was allegedly the one who set everything off.

I would bet heavy that he was a lot more involved with it than he claimed in Underboss, and would also bet heavy that Gotti made a weighed and thorough decision about it, and he wasn't simply bamboozled by Sammy (and Angelo) or backed into a corner (who on earth would back him into a corner and force him to decide anything?)

DB seemed to be a holdover from another era that they had no use for. A Captain with no crew, who has a bunch of money and rackets all to himself. The administration just changed, Sammy almost certainly wanted the Union himself and probably convinced Gotti he could do it better and have it be even more profitable. Others almost certainly wanted his loan book and anything else that they could glom on to. A guy like DB who really wasn't that close with the new admin, was a Castellano era guy, had no crew and no big following, and a ton of money/rackets - seems like a logical "choice" for any new renegade admin to target a guy like that...

Don't want to get into a whole "breaking down the Gotti tapes" thing especially since someone who actually knew Gotti just did that, very well, on YouTube - but when Gotti is ranting about how they lied to him about DB and he went along with it anyway, it seems like he was saving face and placing blame elsewhere. Again, he doesn't seem like the type who'd be forced into anything by anyone - he was probably stewing about Sammy and the state of affairs and was thinking about how he may not have had problems like that and complaints from companies when DB was running that Union. It probably hit him that it wasn't a great decision and he was blaming others instead of saying "I fucked up on that one"

Why are guys captains with no crews?

No idea - If I had to guess it would be money primarily, and maybe a little bit of personal favoritism. If you are an administration member and have a guy like DiBernardo who's making a ton of money and has a lot going on, why keep him as a solider have him under another captain, essentially adding another layer of payouts between you and the direct source of money? Instead, if he's a captain without a crew, he's dealing directly with the administration - no potential for bad messages and miscommunication, less potential for money going missing that is supposed to be going to you.

The Gotti admin killed the guy, so what I said above is a moot point in regards to them, but IIRC DiBernardo was a captain under Castellano (or even earlier?? anyone know?) and it wouldn't surprise me if the admin wanting to be more hands on with DiB's money and rackets was the reason for it

Makes a lot of sense, thank you sie

[Pogo The Clown]

Oh well - I still suspect money & greed were at the root of DiBernardo's promotion

According to Gravano, Gotti didn't want to promote DiBernardo. He had to be talked into it by Gravano and DeCicco.


Pogo

[newera_212]

Oh well - I still suspect money & greed were at the root of DiBernardo's promotion

According to Gravano, Gotti didn't want to promote DiBernardo. He had to be talked into it by Gravano and DeCicco.


Pogo

Interesting. Was DeCicco was the closest to DiBernardo out of everyone else involved in the Castellano plot? So the promotion could have been a nominal type of reward for his help apparently

I havent' checked any LCN related Wikipedia articles in years, and all of us know here how out of pocket some of the LCN related info on there has traditionally been - but I just checked and DiBernardo has his own Wiki entry. I found this uncited quote on there lol...

"According to some accounts, Angelo Ruggiero engineered an order from Gotti to kill DiBernardo because he had once told Ruggiero that he was not smart enough to be underboss."

[newera_212]

I've read Underboss twice and both times were ages ago (the first time was when it came out and I was barely a teenager) so I don't recall it exactly, but I remember Sammy talking it in the book and making it sound like he just "went along with it" and reluctantly decided to take Ruggerio's word for whatever reason. Ruggerio was allegedly the one who set everything off.

I would bet heavy that he was a lot more involved with it than he claimed in Underboss, and would also bet heavy that Gotti made a weighed and thorough decision about it, and he wasn't simply bamboozled by Sammy (and Angelo) or backed into a corner (who on earth would back him into a corner and force him to decide anything?)

DB seemed to be a holdover from another era that they had no use for. A Captain with no crew, who has a bunch of money and rackets all to himself. The administration just changed, Sammy almost certainly wanted the Union himself and probably convinced Gotti he could do it better and have it be even more profitable. Others almost certainly wanted his loan book and anything else that they could glom on to. A guy like DB who really wasn't that close with the new admin, was a Castellano era guy, had no crew and no big following, and a ton of money/rackets - seems like a logical "choice" for any new renegade admin to target a guy like that...

Don't want to get into a whole "breaking down the Gotti tapes" thing especially since someone who actually knew Gotti just did that, very well, on YouTube - but when Gotti is ranting about how they lied to him about DB and he went along with it anyway, it seems like he was saving face and placing blame elsewhere. Again, he doesn't seem like the type who'd be forced into anything by anyone - he was probably stewing about Sammy and the state of affairs and was thinking about how he may not have had problems like that and complaints from companies when DB was running that Union. It probably hit him that it wasn't a great decision and he was blaming others instead of saying "I fucked up on that one"

Why are guys captains with no crews?

No idea - If I had to guess it would be money primarily, and maybe a little bit of personal favoritism. If you are an administration member and have a guy like DiBernardo who's making a ton of money and has a lot going on, why keep him as a solider have him under another captain, essentially adding another layer of payouts between you and the direct source of money? Instead, if he's a captain without a crew, he's dealing directly with the administration - no potential for bad messages and miscommunication, less potential for money going missing that is supposed to be going to you.

The Gotti admin killed the guy, so what I said above is a moot point in regards to them, but IIRC DiBernardo was a captain under Castellano (or even earlier?? anyone know?) and it wouldn't surprise me if the admin wanting to be more hands on with DiB's money and rackets was the reason for it

Makes a lot of sense, thank you sie

Makes sense to me in theory too at least, but it looks like I might be off base about why DiBernardo was actually promoted.

Also, mentioned above in another post - but there's another example of a Captain without a Crew in Matthew Madonna. Pennisi said on one of his shows that Madonna was on track for an administration position, but soldiers are unable to be promoted directly to boss (or acting boss in any sort of recent case).

[johnny_scootch]

What about Mike DeSantis? Soldier to Acting Boss.

[Pogo The Clown]

I havent' checked any LCN related Wikipedia articles in years, and all of us know here how out of pocket some of the LCN related info on there has traditionally been - but I just checked and DiBernardo has his own Wiki entry. I found this uncited quote on there lol...

"According to some accounts, Angelo Ruggiero engineered an order from Gotti to kill DiBernardo because he had once told Ruggiero that he was not smart enough to be underboss."

That statement by DB was true. Gravano talked it in his book. After DeCicco was killed Ruggiero was really angling to become the new UbderBoss and mentioned it to DB. As you can expect Ruggiero didn't take kindly to that.


Pogo

[newera_212]

What about Mike DeSantis? Soldier to Acting Boss.

Was wondering the same thing myself. Pennisi might have explained the workaround for DeSantis , maybe even in the same video where he explained why Madonna was a captain with no crew, I just don't remember. He could have been captain temporary of the crew Dello Russo had that broke of from the consolidated Brookyn crew Pennisi was in.

My memory is horrible ...I think Pennisi gave another example of Madonna himself making someone a captain with no crew...it was either his personal friend Gary Medure he mentioned (any verification this guy was even made by the way?) or Joe DeSena before he took over a long island crew from someone.

That statement by DB was true. Gravano talked it in his book. After DeCicco was killed Ruggiero was really angling to become the new UbderBoss and mentioned it to DB. As you can expect Ruggiero didn't take kindly to that.


Pogo

Anyone telling a colleague "you're not smart enough" in any industry is funny... but this is hilarious. DB must have had some balls

[Wiseguy]

What about Mike DeSantis? Soldier to Acting Boss.

Was wondering the same thing myself. Pennisi might have explained the workaround for DeSantis , maybe even in the same video where he explained why Madonna was a captain with no crew, I just don't remember. He could have been captain temporary of the crew Dello Russo had that broke of from the consolidated Brookyn crew Pennisi was in.

My memory is horrible ...I think Pennisi gave another example of Madonna himself making someone a captain with no crew...it was either his personal friend Gary Medure he mentioned (any verification this guy was even made by the way?) or Joe DeSena before he took over a long island crew from someone.

That statement by DB was true. Gravano talked it in his book. After DeCicco was killed Ruggiero was really angling to become the new UbderBoss and mentioned it to DB. As you can expect Ruggiero didn't take kindly to that.


Pogo

Anyone telling a colleague "you're not smart enough" in any industry is funny... but this is hilarious. DB must have had some balls

DiBernardo's exact words to Ruggiero were, "You have the balls to be underboss but not the brains."