Project Otremens Recordings

[TommyNoto]

The commission exists, LA family, Tampa, Buffalo . He’s literally dropped a toaster in the bathtub because they are going to put a contract on him for failing to suppress the truth

I can only assume you're joking. At least I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

The sad part is, there probably are people on here who think the LA or Tampa families still exist. That's when you know people have lost their collective shit and we've gone full circle back to the Real Deal forum circa 2006.

Ok, let's be serious for a second. lets see if I can lay out my thoughts in some form or fashion that makes sense. I been thinking a lot about this.

Let's look at the whole scenario for a second. Obviously there is an International organization of some sort. right? Is it possible this is the new age of "mafia." away from the leave bodies in the street and more business like. you have all these pseudo successful businessmen involved, right? todaro, gambino...but are rich in the traditions of LCN. its in there blood. formalities still are important to them. sure Tampa is "defunct" right? but its still important to them to check in with whomever left when in that area. certain respects and traditions still apply even if its not all about illegal activity. I think we need shift on how we used to think of a typical "mafia" family. I mean you're a smart guy. obviously something is happening up in buffalo, right? is it a traditional structured family like it used to be? probably not but something was for sure going on. porky didn't leave his cozy Staten Island area to go up state cause he was bored. some sort of protocol is still occurring. I don't think that's deniable.
im curious as someone I respect in this realm what you think all this is. to me for sure its an international conspiracy of some sort just not what we used to think lcn is. I think its much more centered around legit activities still using the old traditions.

Well said as I too think a lot of their income today centers around quasi legit business like gambling and weed which is then invested in legit industries (construction, real estate, restaurants, food, check cashing/ collection etc.) where some guys have built a lot of wealth. However Buffalo seems to have more / larger drug operations which kind of aligns with the violence we have seen up north. With how lucrative gambling is , it makes sense to try and expand markets like CA and like Violi said it makes sense for everyone to work together.

The Todaro commission talk is mind blowing . I never would of thought it still exists but I still think the mob is very alive from a $ standpoint (not power) and with Calabrian resources entering the mix , there seems to still be a lot going on from a biz standpoint the in the USA / Canada.

[Wiseguy]

If Violi did beat out 30 other American candidates..

He didn’t say ‘30 American candidates’ he said ‘30 guys’ which sounds like the entirety of the Family not just one side of the border.

So the explanation is no longer that the bulk of those 30 candidates are in Canada, where there's relatively less intelligence, but they were all American?

In other words, 32 members on the U.S. side of the border, plus however many on the Canadian side?

However Buffalo seems to have more / larger drug operations which kind of aligns with the violence we have seen up north.

Buffalo? That's just it. Generally speaking, the drugs and violence are more indicative of Italian (and other) organized crime, of which remnants of the Buffalo LCN are simply in proximity to. Sergi recognizes this. And if you look at the cases that actually do involve the Buffalo LCN over the past 20+ years, the Violi case was very much an outlier.

The Todaro commission talk is mind blowing . I never would of thought it still exists but I still think the mob is very alive from a $ standpoint (not power) and with Calabrian resources entering the mix , there seems to still be a lot going on from a biz standpoint the in the USA / Canada.

The Commission thing actually isn't news. Back in 2016, Selwyn Raab wrote that the Commission in NYC still exists but, more through messengers between leaders than the latter coming together in a group for meetings like in the past.

As for Violi's comment about "New York calling Todaro to come and be part of the Commission," without further confirming/explanatory info, I'd stick that in the same circular file his "beat out 30 guys" statement currently resides.

[TommyNoto]

If Violi did beat out 30 other American candidates..

He didn’t say ‘30 American candidates’ he said ‘30 guys’ which sounds like the entirety of the Family not just one side of the border.

So the explanation is no longer that the bulk of those 30 candidates are in Canada, where there's relatively less intelligence, but they were all American?

In other words, 32 members on the U.S. side of the border, plus however many on the Canadian side?

However Buffalo seems to have more / larger drug operations which kind of aligns with the violence we have seen up north.

Buffalo? That's just it. Generally speaking, the drugs and violence are more indicative of Italian (and other) organized crime, of which remnants of the Buffalo LCN are simply in proximity to. Sergi recognizes this. And if you look at the cases that actually do involve the Buffalo LCN over the past 20+ years, the Violi case was very much an outlier.

The Todaro commission talk is mind blowing . I never would of thought it still exists but I still think the mob is very alive from a $ standpoint (not power) and with Calabrian resources entering the mix , there seems to still be a lot going on from a biz standpoint the in the USA / Canada.

The Commission thing actually isn't news. Back in 2016, Selwyn Raab wrote that the Commission in NYC still exists but, more through messengers between leaders than the latter coming together in a group for meetings like in the past.

As for Violi's comment about "New York calling Todaro to come and be part of the Commission," without further confirming/explanatory info, I'd stick that in the same circular file his "beat out 30 guys" statement currently resides.

A few Buffalo area guys were popped for drugs , Serio , Masechia , and Gerace for bribing the dea agent

[Newyorkempire]

Even if we concede that 30 was an exaggeration you still end up with more than some on this forum have been arguing against. If they are taking some of Violis words as the truth and then saying other parts are lies that means THEY in fact are trying to steer the narrative to benefit their past incorrect statements. And further it by claiming because are members are old they are not active as if that means anything. We all know guys stay active into their 80s. Irrelevant.

[Newyorkempire]

If Violi did beat out 30 other American candidates..

He didn’t say ‘30 American candidates’ he said ‘30 guys’ which sounds like the entirety of the Family not just one side of the border.

So the explanation is no longer that the bulk of those 30 candidates are in Canada, where there's relatively less intelligence, but they were all American?

In other words, 32 members on the U.S. side of the border, plus however many on the Canadian side?

However Buffalo seems to have more / larger drug operations which kind of aligns with the violence we have seen up north.

Buffalo? That's just it. Generally speaking, the drugs and violence are more indicative of Italian (and other) organized crime, of which remnants of the Buffalo LCN are simply in proximity to. Sergi recognizes this. And if you look at the cases that actually do involve the Buffalo LCN over the past 20+ years, the Violi case was very much an outlier.

The Todaro commission talk is mind blowing . I never would of thought it still exists but I still think the mob is very alive from a $ standpoint (not power) and with Calabrian resources entering the mix , there seems to still be a lot going on from a biz standpoint the in the USA / Canada.

The Commission thing actually isn't news. Back in 2016, Selwyn Raab wrote that the Commission in NYC still exists but, more through messengers between leaders than the latter coming together in a group for meetings like in the past.

As for Violi's comment about "New York calling Todaro to come and be part of the Commission," without further confirming/explanatory info, I'd stick that in the same circular file his "beat out 30 guys" statement currently resides.

A few Buffalo area guys were popped for drugs , Serio , Masechia , and Gerace for bribing the dea agent

We've went into great detail about them and their connections already

[Newyorkempire]

B., where'd you go??

[antimafia]

From "Project Windfall".....the "eagle" has landed? Any ideas?

That same summer [antimafia’s note: 1996], the Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police began investigating the illegal gaming activities of the Musitano family. Using information from an informant, the preliminary inquiry blossomed into a joint forces operation dubbed “Project Windfall.” Evidence collected by police indicated that the Musitano group was making $14 million in annual profits from bookmaking, underground lotteries, and the illegal distribution of video lottery terminals. Between February 10 and April 7, 1997, police surveillance caught Vincenzo (Vince) Campanella receiving approximately 1,528 bets worth around $583,799 on sporting events, primarily professional basketball and hockey games. It was determined that Campanella was a bookie working for Pasquale Musitano and he was arrested and charged with gaming offences. In December 1997, the Windfall investigation resulted in criminal charges against another two dozen people in relation to the distribution of illegal gaming machines, most of which were operated out of two bars connected to the Musitanos. Pasquale was charged with illegal bookmaking. In a surprise move, however, the charges were withdrawn when Campanella and seven other accused took the rap and pleaded guilty. Musitano’s cousin Giuseppe Avignone was not so lucky; he pleaded guilty to keeping illegal gambling machines and was fined $3,500.

[Newyorkempire]

From "Project Windfall".....the "eagle" has landed? Any ideas?

That same summer [antimafia’s note: 1996], the Hamilton-Wentworth Regional Police began investigating the illegal gaming activities of the Musitano family. Using information from an informant, the preliminary inquiry blossomed into a joint forces operation dubbed “Project Windfall.” Evidence collected by police indicated that the Musitano group was making $14 million in annual profits from bookmaking, underground lotteries, and the illegal distribution of video lottery terminals. Between February 10 and April 7, 1997, police surveillance caught Vincenzo (Vince) Campanella receiving approximately 1,528 bets worth around $583,799 on sporting events, primarily professional basketball and hockey games. It was determined that Campanella was a bookie working for Pasquale Musitano and he was arrested and charged with gaming offences. In December 1997, the Windfall investigation resulted in criminal charges against another two dozen people in relation to the distribution of illegal gaming machines, most of which were operated out of two bars connected to the Musitanos. Pasquale was charged with illegal bookmaking. In a surprise move, however, the charges were withdrawn when Campanella and seven other accused took the rap and pleaded guilty. Musitano’s cousin Giuseppe Avignone was not so lucky; he pleaded guilty to keeping illegal gambling machines and was fined $3,500.

Thanks Anti. Wonder where Campanella is recently. If Barresi was taken out you would assume Campanella would have been hunted as well.

[antimafia]

More about Project Windfall:

PROJECT WINDFALL

Windfall was a Part VI investigation into illegal sports betting and the distribution of illegal gambling machines. The project targeted the Musitano Organized Crime Family in the Hamilton and Niagara Falls area. At the conclusion of the investigation, officers were able to use information gathered off the lines to lay charges against several well- known TOC figures and several other associates.

All charged parties were convicted of bookmaking. The investigation also lead to 15 illegal gaming house warrants being executed. Forty more individuals were charged with various gambling offences in relation to the gaming houses. Investigators also gathered information that assisted Project "Expiate" investigators and was used to convict members of the family with two homicides related to the Papalias, prominent crime family members from the Hamilton area. Investigators believe the homicides were the result of a turf war related to the gambling trade.

Criminal Intelligence Service Canada (CISC) presented the Ontario Illegal Gaming Enforcement Unit a Mark of Excellence award in recognition of the unit's dedication and leadership in combating organized crime in relation to project "Expiate" at their annual conference in Ottawa in the fall of 1999.

Source: https://prism.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/han ... sequence=1, p. 11.
————-
The first Project Scopa investigation determined that John Papalia was paying tribute, derived from illicit gambling profits, to Vito Rizzuto — was tribute paid by Ontario-based Buffalo Family members even after Papalia’s murder in 1997? in 1996 while Project Windfall was going on? before 1996?

[CabriniGreen]

More about Project Windfall:

PROJECT WINDFALL

Windfall was a Part VI investigation into illegal sports betting and the distribution of illegal gambling machines. The project targeted the Musitano Organized Crime Family in the Hamilton and Niagara Falls area. At the conclusion of the investigation, officers were able to use information gathered off the lines to lay charges against several well- known TOC figures and several other associates.

All charged parties were convicted of bookmaking. The investigation also lead to 15 illegal gaming house warrants being executed. Forty more individuals were charged with various gambling offences in relation to the gaming houses. Investigators also gathered information that assisted Project "Expiate" investigators and was used to convict members of the family with two homicides related to the Papalias, prominent crime family members from the Hamilton area. Investigators believe the homicides were the result of a turf war related to the gambling trade.

Criminal Intelligence Service Canada (CISC) presented the Ontario Illegal Gaming Enforcement Unit a Mark of Excellence award in recognition of the unit's dedication and leadership in combating organized crime in relation to project "Expiate" at their annual conference in Ottawa in the fall of 1999.

Source: https://prism.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/han ... sequence=1, p. 11.
————-
The first Project Scopa investigation determined that John Papalia was paying tribute, derived from illicit gambling profits, to Vito Rizzuto — was tribute paid by Ontario-based Buffalo Family members even after Papalia’s murder in 1997? in 1996 while Project Windfall was going on? before 1996?

Some great post in this thread @Antimafia...

[B.]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

[antimafia]

Thanks Anti. Wonder where Campanella is recently. If Barresi was taken out you would assume Campanella would have been hunted as well.

After being convicted in December 1999 and then being put on probation for 12 months -- all in relation to Project Windfall -- Campanella asked permission 1. to attend Dominic Musitano Jr.'s wedding on June 24, 2000, 2. to have certain problematic guests attend his own (i.e., Campanella's) bachelor party, and 3. to have these same guests attending his wedding three weeks earlier on June 3. Apparently, the guests were the ones who really pushed to be able to be present for the stag and reception. According to a couple of articles, Campanella was a close friend of Musitano Jr. Campanella was employed one time as the operator of the Musitanos' restaurant, The Gathering Spot (which went under a long time ago). Representing Campanella in his request was well-known criminal lawyer Dean Paquette, who has represented the Musitanos and the Violi brothers Domenico and Joey in the past. As far as I can tell, Vince Campanella hasn't been in the news since the year 2000, but he himself wrote the following in support of the application his lawyer submitted in or before May 2000: "Many of my friends have criminal records. I am currently prohibited from associating or communicating with them, but I would like to invite my friends to my stag and my wedding." So who knows what Campanella got up to after his probation ended later that year.

Some great post in this thread @Antimafia...

Thanks, but I haven't contributed much -- yet -- except for an important reminder about Morena's paid role as a state agent (also called "agent provocateur" in Canadian law enforcement), some reference material in the form of screencaps of Stephen Metelsky's Mob Museum presentation about Project OTremens, and in answer to one of Newyorkempire's questions, the background to Project Windfall (which incidentally was never named as such in Canadian newspapers at the time of reporting during the period of 1997 to 2000).

[antimafia]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

Below screenshot is from Mafia inc., ch. 12, "Conquering Ontario." The doubters -- and they have every right to be skeptical of any source -- might be wont to say that hitman Ken Murdock was too low on the totem pole to know about any of this stuff he claims to have knowledge of. I've made sure to include in the screenshot the paragraph about Pat Musitano and Guy Panepinto having met at Casino Niagara (Ontario) to discuss Rizzuto's plans to invest in Ontario -- at this point in the page, Murdock is no longer doing the relating; the co-authors are.



There are a number of ways to get to Paul Manning's reply post below, which I've bolded, but here's one link: viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4122&p=116499&hili ... ks#p116499

I see. A poster on gbb giacomo vacari said last year that they had about 5 made guys and 25-30 associates which matches up with what your saying. No clue how he knows that. Another thing I’m hoping you may help me answer is how do the musitanos “make” guys? Is it done with permission from the rizzutos? Did they do that a while ago and therefore don’t have any recent made members? We’re they made by buffalo and then just remained made, or did they just do it themselves and people recognized them as made as well.

I think it differs from family to family.

As for getting their button. That is NEVER discussed, at least not in front of me. I know as much as you know.

I once asked one of the Papalias to ‘make’ me. It was an interesting, and funny conversation.


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So are the Musitano’s made Buffalo members, how did they get their start with them, through there father or uncle?

Angelo was never made and Pat wasn’t a made guy when he plugged Papalia. He got his button when he got out of jail and that will have come from Montreal I believe. Pat’s old man was a boss, old school Calabrase brought over in the 50s by the Papalias believe it or not.


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Papalia was under Buffalo so how does Montreal have the authority to make them, since they were at the time officially with the Bonannos. Does that make the Musitanos Bonanno members? What about the Luppinos?

Right, this came from a really tight CI, who is still deeply involved in TOC. I’ve also corroborated with police statements and Murdocks account.

Papalia was under Rizzuto, who at the time answered to Buffalo.

Pat and Ang are two smart assed cugines who want to get made. They go to Papalia, cap in hand and ask for spread. (An area where Papalia collects gambling dues).

Papalia still very familiar with their father, gives them an area and they do fantastic. The boys have already got a rep and everyone pays up. They give the money to Papalia, he gives them some back and he pays up the chain to Rizzuto. You all know how this works.

So one day, Pat has an idea. He’ll go directly to Rizzuto and pay him. That way Rizzuto knows exactly where the money is coming from. So he does that. Rizzuto doesn’t give a fuck where it comes from and takes the cash, knowing this will be a problem, but not his problem.

When Papalia finds out he instructs the boys to give him his cash back, the full amount, with juice. (Interest)

Dumb and dumber tell him he’ll get it on the next collection day. They go collect, then head down to the Fallsview Casino to double the money, so they can pay back Papalia.

Well wouldn’t you know it. They lose everything. CBP have them crossing to Buffalo shortly after leaving the casino. Two days later Murdock offs Papalia right in front of my CI.

Then Barillaro starts up, knowing full well who was behind the murder, but not knowing it was authorized. Before Buffalo can tell him to calm it down he starts to make threats against the Musitanos.

The Musitano send Murdock round to his house and he whacks Barillaro. They were 300 meters away in a Waffle House.

Again a couple of days after this CBP have the Musitanos crossing the border and coming back. But I’ll bet Buffalo was pissed. No chance they’re getting made now states side.

Couple of months after that, surveillance catch Musitano at a meeting in Ontario with Vito Rizzuto. Thats when he aligned himself with Montreal. Guys an earner and like I said, Rizzuto doesn’t give a fuck where it comes from. Musitano inherited all Johnny’s book.

Oh, Dom Musitano, Pat’s father answered to Italy. Not to anyone in North America. Pat aligned himself with Montreal out of self preservation.

Now though, I’m starting to believe they all want him dead, like with Papalia. Johnny became such a problem for everyone, he had to go.

In answer to Q in my humble opinion, Pat made in/ by Montreal. Angelo never got his button.

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[CabriniGreen]

Was it tribute or was Vito Rizzuto an investor?

With this subject it's very easy to confuse return on investment for tribute which can appear the same from the outside. I define tribute as receiving money out of respect/status/rank without providing capital or resources of some kind.

What makes it murkier is that often people are secret investors though with an illegal operation that distinction doesn't matter.

The sportsbooks to me are by far the most mysterious development up there.

It's the main thing I find implausible in the Scoppa book. Vito owing Bertolo ( Or was it Gervasi? I confuse the 2 ....) money on a sportsbook.

I can't reconcile Vito being the point man for a massive gambling expansion in Ontario, and owing money to the local Montreal book. I also don't understand why or how the sportsbook for the Montreal organization became consolidated into one ledger. And how are there NO American-Bonnano shareholders? Like there's Bikers in there but no New Yorkers? It's like... what happened?

[johnny_scootch]

If Violi did beat out 30 other American candidates..

He didn’t say ‘30 American candidates’ he said ‘30 guys’ which sounds like the entirety of the Family not just one side of the border.

It says right on the documents above "30 AMERICAN CANDIDATES". Pay attention.

Yes I see that but that’s not what Violi said he said ‘30 guys’ with absolutely no mention of where they’re from. Someone else has added the ‘American’ bit. I’m not saying that’s totally false because I don’t know but we do have that quote from Dom and we know he didn’t say ‘30 American guys’.