In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[InCamelot]

I think some people were arguing whether "its a criminal organization" vs "its NOT a criminal organization".

And then it became "its MORE than a criminal organization". Different arguments.

[Angelo Santino]

Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.

If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.

[Cheech]

Reminds me of philly for some reason, chris

[Angelo Santino]

Reminds me of philly for some reason, chris

Philly is a great example because they follow the same operandi and I doubt many of them even know it. If you were to round everyone up and say you were related to this guy and you guys to related to them through this guy. You all follow the same subculture and have your own thing going that is similar to how members conducted themselves in the 1950's and the 1920's before that. Gaetan Lucibello would look at me in his FUBU suit wearing his pierced earing and Steven Mazzone would be giving me the malocchiu like I'm a conspiracy theorist. When I spoke to Gravano and informed him of his being Sciaccatani, his marrying one as well as being in a Sciaccatani crew and asked him if that was a conscious thing, he didn't know how to answer. He was a gang member who joined the mob and was busy making money rather than looking at this stuff. But it's still there.

They are following a tradition even if they themselves aren't fully aware of it. Even back in the 1920's when Gentile spoke about his time he didn't make these connections because he took them for granted, they were so in-his-face that he didn't see them.

B. can elaborate on this better than I can but yes, Philly is a great example. It's organic, not preplanned organized.

-

I will admit that what Steve Mazzone said when he ordered the newly minted members to target AC kinda counters the points I'm arguing. Doesn't matter. What he, or anyone else says, doesn't undo 200 years of tradition in this criminal freemasonry that is Mafia.

[bronx]

Chris, its amazing how gravano speaks about cosa rostra but has not clue where his family was from or the politics from each town that came to u.s.a. you said it perfect he was just a gang member joining another gang in his mind..history ,tradition, relationships non exinsistant

[CabriniGreen]

Reminds me of philly for some reason, chris

Philly is a great example because they follow the same operandi and I doubt many of them even know it. If you were to round everyone up and say you were related to this guy and you guys to related to them through this guy. You all follow the same subculture and have your own thing going that is similar to how members conducted themselves in the 1950's and the 1920's before that. Gaetan Lucibello would look at me in his FUBU suit wearing his pierced earing and Steven Mazzone would be giving me the malocchiu like I'm a conspiracy theorist. When I spoke to Gravano and informed him of his being Sciaccatani, his marrying one as well as being in a Sciaccatani crew and asked him if that was a conscious thing, he didn't know how to answer. He was a gang member who joined the mob and was busy making money rather than looking at this stuff. But it's still there.

They are following a tradition even if they themselves aren't fully aware of it. Even back in the 1920's when Gentile spoke about his time he didn't make these connections because he took them for granted, they were so in-his-face that he didn't see them.

B. can elaborate on this better than I can but yes, Philly is a great example. It's organic, not preplanned organized.

-

I will admit that what Steve Mazzone said when he ordered the newly minted members to target AC kinda counters the points I'm arguing. Doesn't matter. What he, or anyone else says, doesn't undo 200 years of tradition in this criminal freemasonry that is Mafia.

As long as we are on the same page, lol..

Also, the Philly guys arnt criminals because they are buddies? Or, rather....... related buddies?

I think that argument only really holds in Italy where the line IS actually blurred. In the States..... ok Chris, this is your area. We are always told Black Hand and Bootlegging. So how did the mob start HERE? Did they resort to crime immediately? Or no?

Like, to me, theres no ambiguity like in Italy, in the States, the mob is a criminal organization. Is this in dispute,...... really?

The mafia is " More"? More what, exactly? More adept at criminality? More adept at submerging within society? More institutional knowledge passed down through the ranks, and through the generations? How does any of this erase the crime part?

[Villain]

Albanian and Montenegrin clans also have their own long time traditions, bloodlines, networking and worldwide connections. Their traditions have nothing to do with the criminal brotherhood or clan they represent, but instead they simply inherited it from the area or country they live in, meaning they didnt invent their traditions out of nowhere and they obviously keep their bloodline connections mainly because of trust. They are thieves and killers.

[Wiseguy]

Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.

If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.

I would agree there is a certain criminal tradition the Mafia has, which has enabled it to continue for as long as it has. A tradition the Irish and Jewish groups of the past, or the black and Hispanic groups of today, don't have.

[Villain]

Thats right and the same can be said about the Triads.

I also want to add that thing like vendetta or blood fued wasnt invented by the Mafia but instead, it was already there way before the Mafias birth.

[CabriniGreen]

Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.

If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.

I would agree there is a certain criminal tradition the Mafia has, which has enabled it to continue for as long as it has. A tradition the Irish and Jewish groups of the past, or the black and Hispanic groups of today, don't have.

The Irish formed SOME kinda tradition in the POLITICAL sphere...City Hall, Police, Fire Dept,...... like in Illinois with the Daleys and Madigans, and jobs within the system, while the Jewish gangsters gravitated toward finance and law, and high professions in general. Not to sound fucked up or stereotypical, but I believe they never really went " straight", more, they took thier criminality political, in case of the Irish, and corporate for the Jewish.

It's funny to think, but I think this influence is readily apparent when you look at the legacies of the clans that make up the Genovese and Chicago families. Thier kids went into like finance, professions business, ect.....

[Nick Prango]

Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.

If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.

You are right. Even in 2021 Dominican, Mexican, Russian, Chinese, Albanian, African American, Puerto Rican etc criminal organizations do not demonstrate the established criminal sophistication of traditional La Cosa Nostra (LCN) organisations. There is no single criminal organization in United States structured hierarchically like the traditional LCN. Most of these other criminal organizations are not clearly defined or organised and are instead grouped around a central leader or leaders.

Personally i think that even in 2021 most of these other criminal organizations are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob in the United States. LCN is definitely still more sophisticated and well-connected than MS13, The Trinitarios, Crips etc which are essentially loose knit collections of small street gangs. A street gang, as the definition implies, runs the street. They have guns, but they're local. Quite terrifying, but nothing compared to the mafia. Even UBN and Latin Kings are brands/umbrellas not a single organization. You can only compare a clique of Latin King to a mafia family which is way bigger. I have never heard any gang clique with hundreds or thousands of associates like the five families. Black and Hispanic gang sets are normally either independent or loosely affiliated with each other, that's why a Italian mafia family still yields more weight than a gang set even though in total number black/hispanic gangsters outnumber mobsters. LCN family crews very very rarely fight each other, unless during a family feud which happened a few times in the Colombos but never happened in Gambino or Genovese families. Your average street gang sets kill each other on a daily basis.

Russian/Albanian/Chinese etc groups do have hierarchies, but the division between them isn’t as formal as for the Mafia. There’s more access to the high ranks than there is with the Mafia, where a soldier may never meet the boss except when he’s initiated. Plus the Mafia structure is pretty much the same everywhere.

Other crime groups have a more democratic structure compared to the Mafia. Even in 2021 the Mafia in United States has a defined hierarchy. It’s a tree-like hierarchy that could be compared to the military or to a corporation.

Boss

Underboss Consigliere

Captain Captain Captain Captain Captain

Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers).

[Angelo Santino]

I woke up to 4 responses here and took a deep breath... but no, seems were all coming to an agreement.

1 "Also, the Philly guys arnt criminals because they are buddies? Or, rather....... related buddies?" Cabrini, where did I say or imply this? I am not trying to marginalize the criminal aspect. They ARE criminals, tradition or not.
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The other ethnic examples of traditional criminality are sound ones.
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Chris, its amazing how gravano speaks about cosa rostra but has not clue where his family was from or the politics from each town that came to u.s.a. you said it perfect he was just a gang member joining another gang in his mind..history ,tradition, relationships non exinsistant

Yes, it's a trait you see with the Fratiannos, Gottis and even the Sicilian Gravanos of that world. To them, there is no other purpose than to be a criminal. That's what La Cosa Nostra is to them. They also all had to show they could hold the position before being given it unlike say the sons of Dragna, Gambino or even Castellano who they all regard as weak/soft/non-gangster. Ironically though, it's those latter members that keep the organization alive. The Fratiannos, Gravanos, Gottis, Lucianos, Capones were one-offs, the Gambinos and other Mafia aristocratic families were affiliated 100 years ago and likely will be 100 years from now due to their bloodlines, not their criminality.

[CabriniGreen]

I woke up to 4 responses here and took a deep breath... but no, seems were all coming to an agreement.

1 "Also, the Philly guys arnt criminals because they are buddies? Or, rather....... related buddies?" Cabrini, where did I say or imply this? I am not trying to marginalize the criminal aspect. They ARE criminals, tradition or not.

Then I think we are basically in agreement. I was only really giving some, friendly, BENEVOLENT, pushback to the idea that they wernt really criminals. Criminals of a higher caliber for sure, but criminals still. I would agree on them not necessarily being criminal EXCLUSIVELY, but I also think that's more likely inside Italy.



You mentioned Philly, think about it this way. The Zitos can, FROM PHILLY, PICK the mayor of Torreta. That's the ambiguity of legitimacy that exist in Italy. Nicolo Pidone from Calamatifimi paid 80k Euros to rig an election.

Now a Sicilian mafiosi, or American for that matter, CANT reach out and PICK the mayor of Philly. There is no mechanism in place for that type of corruption. The political climate in America isnt conducive to that level of corruption by the mafia any longer. Here, they can run rackets, and run legit business, but the government and courts? Not anymore, they dont have the Italian population centers for local votes, no Unions. They cant compete with corporate money to win favor from politicians, and Guliani firmly established a monopoly on violence. Here, it's all business....

[Villain]

I understand CC's statement and the Mafia being still alive today proves it but....when oldtimer like Paul Ricca says something like "better them than us" (reffering to the NY families, meaning the whole brotherhood thing goes down the toilet) or a "new era" guy like John Gotti says "this is Cosa Nostra" (member who was far away from an old school CN boss)...than all statements about something "more" are wrong. Maybe the difference is between the US and Italian mobs? I never heard for a "Lansky" or even "Alex" being a top figure for many members in the Italian Mafia, but we obviously saw that in the US mob.

For example, is there a difference between Mafia bosses Tony D'Andrea (intellectual individual) and John Gotti (simple street guy)? The time difference between them was 60 or 70 years.....

[CabriniGreen]

Yes, and criminality is an important part in Mafia. But what makes it MORE than a criminal organization is the tradition, kinship, bloodlines, networking and connections. It's a criminal subculture and the ranks manage that subculture, not specific crimes. There is no Hitman Capo, no Finance Capo, etc. People have occupied these roles informally but there is no official capacity. It's similar to the rule that members dont get paid for hits and there are no open contracts.

If this were just a criminal gang that only recruits Italians to commit crime and kick up I would have lost interest a very long time ago.

You are right. Even in 2021 Dominican, Mexican, Russian, Chinese, Albanian, African American, Puerto Rican etc criminal organizations do not demonstrate the established criminal sophistication of traditional La Cosa Nostra (LCN) organisations. There is no single criminal organization in United States structured hierarchically like the traditional LCN. Most of these other criminal organizations are not clearly defined or organised and are instead grouped around a central leader or leaders.

Personally i think that even in 2021 most of these other criminal organizations are not serious competition for what the F.B.I. calls traditional organized crime, the Italian mob in the United States. LCN is definitely still more sophisticated and well-connected than MS13, The Trinitarios, Crips etc which are essentially loose knit collections of small street gangs. A street gang, as the definition implies, runs the street. They have guns, but they're local. Quite terrifying, but nothing compared to the mafia. Even UBN and Latin Kings are brands/umbrellas not a single organization. You can only compare a clique of Latin King to a mafia family which is way bigger. I have never heard any gang clique with hundreds or thousands of associates like the five families. Black and Hispanic gang sets are normally either independent or loosely affiliated with each other, that's why a Italian mafia family still yields more weight than a gang set even though in total number black/hispanic gangsters outnumber mobsters. LCN family crews very very rarely fight each other, unless during a family feud which happened a few times in the Colombos but never happened in Gambino or Genovese families. Your average street gang sets kill each other on a daily basis.

Russian/Albanian/Chinese etc groups do have hierarchies, but the division between them isn’t as formal as for the Mafia. There’s more access to the high ranks than there is with the Mafia, where a soldier may never meet the boss except when he’s initiated. Plus the Mafia structure is pretty much the same everywhere.

Other crime groups have a more democratic structure compared to the Mafia. Even in 2021 the Mafia in United States has a defined hierarchy. It’s a tree-like hierarchy that could be compared to the military or to a corporation.

Boss

Underboss Consigliere

Captain Captain Captain Captain Captain

Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers) Crew (soldiers).

The GDs always had a hierarchy