Current Cleveland Scene + Carmine Angnello

[phatmatress777]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

Well we've all been Godfathered or lead to believe that a Family consists of The Hierarchy and in that lies it's true power. A civilian goes to Don Vito who gives an order to Clemenza who has two buttonmen handle an order. That's not not true but there's so much more to it. Outside of ranks, there's a mafia subculture that existed of a certain dress style, social clubs, cohesion among family and friends. The Mafia of yesterday was its own criminal cult rather than a gang.

it acted as almost a second government in a lot of different aspects

[DPG]

I couldnt resist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDbgkIkTVUk

[Angelo Santino]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

Well we've all been Godfathered or lead to believe that a Family consists of The Hierarchy and in that lies it's true power. A civilian goes to Don Vito who gives an order to Clemenza who has two buttonmen handle an order. That's not not true but there's so much more to it. Outside of ranks, there's a mafia subculture that existed of a certain dress style, social clubs, cohesion among family and friends. The Mafia of yesterday was its own criminal cult rather than a gang. As the eras wore on it seemed to have taken many ganglike qualities but that was never it's intention. When people say things like a boss should only deal with his underboss and under only with the captains, you're stripping away the cohesion that allowed this group to flourish in America. In fact, one could say Massino tried exactly that and half of his lieutenants flipped on him.

Neighbors, relatives, and even made members who are only marginally involved in crime create that infrastructure you're talking about, and I wouldn't say all of them put crime on a pedestal or anything like that -- they simply have a value system that allows crime to exist alongside everything else they consider "normal". It's why a legitimate doctor could be a member of the Bonanno family and there are talks of priests having been members in old Sicily, not to mention all of the endless conservative businessmen who have filled out the ranks from top to bottom. It's a subculture that allows all of these things to coexist and to those people who are a part of it, there is nothing weird about it.

The most defining part of the subculture that surrounds it is the rejection of outside institutions and a willingness to do anything to benefit themselves, both as individuals and as a group. That last part seems to be a common topic of discussion over the years -- old timers and cooperators say that the organization is supposed to be about helping each other, while the "new school" are greedy and more focused on themselves. You also hear it a lot outside the mob in all walks of life. But it isn't new... people have been making these same complaints in every culture as far back as you can go, especially in the mob. Lately I've been hearing a lot about "Millennials", "etc.

I get what you're saying. But I would argue that what sustained the criminal subculture we call the Mafia or LCN is going away like the cowboys. They didn't just one day all stop and die, but the modernization made them obsolete. The mafia's power has dwindled in every racket, they are hanging on and will for the foreseeable future. But notice how most crime films rarely involve Italians anymore whereas you go back to the 70's it was nothing but. If shit was popping in NY like it did in Montreal you'd probaly see more of an artistic reflection on that. Their modus operandi is exposed to the point of being obvious enough that we can discuss it on a forum. Unheard of 40's years ago.

1)Social clubs have always been a key importance going back to 1890's Palermo (in the form of taverns).
2)The ability to avoid unwanted attention.
3)The safety system of appearing at the tavern as a cover while someone you had an issue with was murdered.

These traits, existed to an extent up until the 1960's and dissipated. During the 90's you've seen families try and close them down and opt for 3am meetings. But take the alleged new social club in Philly, if true shows the reoccurring importance of a tradition dating back as long as the hierarchy itself. But we also know there isn't many of them anymore. This cultural shedding was necessary to avoid law enforcement. But it kinda renders the life unbearable except for the true believers who still see a future for themselves in it. I guess you could argue that the new generation now frequents loud nightclubs, maybe that's why you see so many of them in them.

[Wiseguy]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power. That might be the case in NYC where each family had to deal with 4 other groups and naturally wanted to bring in the best before another group did. Cleveland had to contend with Pittsburgh and Buffalo, both areas being two hours away. (We'll leave out the Youngstown wars over the years). But Cleveland had the entire state of Ohio and didn't need to 'beef' up it's ranks. That's where you had captains and in some cases soldiers acting as representatives over certain areas. Those guys can have people with them, crews if you'd like, but smaller memberships = a larger cut of income.

Mafia groups have always tried to maintain a certain equilibrium with membership. You don't see a boss making 30 new members en masse just to beef up. Allan May delved into this years ago (I don't agree with everything but he makes some good points.):

http://www.americanmafia.com/Allan_May_7-24-00.html

Ray Ferritto, the Mob informant credited with the murder of Cleveland mobster Danny Greene, told British journalist Martin Short during the taping of the “Crime, Inc.” documentaries, that by killing Greene he would then become a made member and share in the profits. At the time of Cleveland boss John Scalish’s death, Cleveland had very few made members left, and most of them were old men. I believe the reason for this is like Ferritto said, you become made and you get to share in the profits. The math goes like this; the fewer made members to share the profits, the bigger the cut. Even when the bombing war broke out in the mid-1970s and the Cleveland Family decided to make new members, did they initiate younger men like Eugene Ciasullo, Allie Calabrese, or Butchie Cisternino? No they initiated John Calandra, who was 60 years old, and Anthony Libertore who was 56.

My point is, I just don’t understand why people feel that the number of initiated mob members is so important. It’s like asking how many members of the Cleveland Indians are Latino. To me it would seem that the overall strength of a gang should include all members – made members, as well as those considered associates. Are we not to consider associates equally important members of the gang? Look at people over the years who have fallen into this category: Jimmy “the Gent” Burke, who Robert DeNiro made famous in “Goodfellas,” Alex “Shondor” Birns in Cleveland, “Fat Herbie” Blitzstein in Las Vegas, Joe Barboza in Boston, and Jesse Stoneking in St. Louis, to name a few.

Even the counting of associates is difficult. What constitutes an associate? How does one become an associate? Do I just have to slap someone around? Do I have to shoot someone? Do I have to do prison time? How long do I have to be associated before I become an associate? Do I have to be an income producer, or can I just murder someone?

Numbers certainly are a factor when it comes to power, albeit not the only one. Otherwise one is essentially saying it makes no difference whether a family has 200 members or 20. It's also a huge factor when it comes to.attrition. it's not a coincidence that there are still hundreds of made guys in New York but only a few in Cleveland.

[B.]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power.

i think some might also get a bit confused seeing how from my limited memory there seem to be a number of small groups/clans/families in italy that might only have a dozen or so made guys but are still considered a viable and ongoing criminal enterprise where as in america by the time a family gets to that point general attrition has assured that things are pretty much over aside from a few guys involved in a few things from time to time, what's left in kc seems to fit this mold pretty well.

Well we've all been Godfathered or lead to believe that a Family consists of The Hierarchy and in that lies it's true power. A civilian goes to Don Vito who gives an order to Clemenza who has two buttonmen handle an order. That's not not true but there's so much more to it. Outside of ranks, there's a mafia subculture that existed of a certain dress style, social clubs, cohesion among family and friends. The Mafia of yesterday was its own criminal cult rather than a gang. As the eras wore on it seemed to have taken many ganglike qualities but that was never it's intention. When people say things like a boss should only deal with his underboss and under only with the captains, you're stripping away the cohesion that allowed this group to flourish in America. In fact, one could say Massino tried exactly that and half of his lieutenants flipped on him.

Neighbors, relatives, and even made members who are only marginally involved in crime create that infrastructure you're talking about, and I wouldn't say all of them put crime on a pedestal or anything like that -- they simply have a value system that allows crime to exist alongside everything else they consider "normal". It's why a legitimate doctor could be a member of the Bonanno family and there are talks of priests having been members in old Sicily, not to mention all of the endless conservative businessmen who have filled out the ranks from top to bottom. It's a subculture that allows all of these things to coexist and to those people who are a part of it, there is nothing weird about it.

The most defining part of the subculture that surrounds it is the rejection of outside institutions and a willingness to do anything to benefit themselves, both as individuals and as a group. That last part seems to be a common topic of discussion over the years -- old timers and cooperators say that the organization is supposed to be about helping each other, while the "new school" are greedy and more focused on themselves. You also hear it a lot outside the mob in all walks of life. But it isn't new... people have been making these same complaints in every culture as far back as you can go, especially in the mob. Lately I've been hearing a lot about "Millennials", "etc.

I get what you're saying. But I would argue that what sustained the criminal subculture we call the Mafia or LCN is going away like the cowboys. They didn't just one day all stop and die, but the modernization made them obsolete. The mafia's power has dwindled in every racket, they are hanging on and will for the foreseeable future. But notice how most crime films rarely involve Italians anymore whereas you go back to the 70's it was nothing but. If shit was popping in NY like it did in Montreal you'd probaly see more of an artistic reflection on that. Their modus operandi is exposed to the point of being obvious enough that we can discuss it on a forum. Unheard of 40's years ago.

1)Social clubs have always been a key importance going back to 1890's Palermo (in the form of taverns).
2)The ability to avoid unwanted attention.
3)The safety system of appearing at the tavern as a cover while someone you had an issue with was murdered.

These traits, existed to an extent up until the 1960's and dissipated. During the 90's you've seen families try and close them down and opt for 3am meetings. But take the alleged new social club in Philly, if true shows the reoccurring importance of a tradition dating back as long as the hierarchy itself. But we also know there isn't many of them anymore. This cultural shedding was necessary to avoid law enforcement. But it kinda renders the life unbearable except for the true believers who still see a future for themselves in it. I guess you could argue that the new generation now frequents loud nightclubs, maybe that's why you see so many of them in them.

Oh yeah, I agree with everything you said 100%. I was talking more historically. Guys are probably still attracted to that life for many of the same reasons they always have been (what's the difference in the grand scheme of things between guys today going to a nightclub and taking molly vs. guys hitting discos in the 70s and doing coke?), but what has changed is the community infrastructure that has supported it for so long. Those sorts of insular neighborhoods and relationships that made the mob "normal" within their communities simply aren't there and a lot of what is keeping it powered is nostalgia and anti-authority attitudes. That's just my take.

Italian-Americans still tend to identify much more strongly with their Italian roots than for example an Irish-American (except on Saint Patrick's day) and especially other European immigrants who are two or more generations removed from their immigrant ancestors. And in my opinion that has helped the mob survive today (among other things), but it's not going to be enough to sustain it forever.

[JCB1977]

Part of the problem or misunderstanding is that people equate numbers to power. That might be the case in NYC where each family had to deal with 4 other groups and naturally wanted to bring in the best before another group did. Cleveland had to contend with Pittsburgh and Buffalo, both areas being two hours away. (We'll leave out the Youngstown wars over the years). But Cleveland had the entire state of Ohio and didn't need to 'beef' up it's ranks. That's where you had captains and in some cases soldiers acting as representatives over certain areas. Those guys can have people with them, crews if you'd like, but smaller memberships = a larger cut of income.

Mafia groups have always tried to maintain a certain equilibrium with membership. You don't see a boss making 30 new members en masse just to beef up. Allan May delved into this years ago (I don't agree with everything but he makes some good points.):

http://www.americanmafia.com/Allan_May_7-24-00.html

Ray Ferritto, the Mob informant credited with the murder of Cleveland mobster Danny Greene, told British journalist Martin Short during the taping of the “Crime, Inc.” documentaries, that by killing Greene he would then become a made member and share in the profits. At the time of Cleveland boss John Scalish’s death, Cleveland had very few made members left, and most of them were old men. I believe the reason for this is like Ferritto said, you become made and you get to share in the profits. The math goes like this; the fewer made members to share the profits, the bigger the cut. Even when the bombing war broke out in the mid-1970s and the Cleveland Family decided to make new members, did they initiate younger men like Eugene Ciasullo, Allie Calabrese, or Butchie Cisternino? No they initiated John Calandra, who was 60 years old, and Anthony Libertore who was 56.

My point is, I just don’t understand why people feel that the number of initiated mob members is so important. It’s like asking how many members of the Cleveland Indians are Latino. To me it would seem that the overall strength of a gang should include all members – made members, as well as those considered associates. Are we not to consider associates equally important members of the gang? Look at people over the years who have fallen into this category: Jimmy “the Gent” Burke, who Robert DeNiro made famous in “Goodfellas,” Alex “Shondor” Birns in Cleveland, “Fat Herbie” Blitzstein in Las Vegas, Joe Barboza in Boston, and Jesse Stoneking in St. Louis, to name a few.

Even the counting of associates is difficult. What constitutes an associate? How does one become an associate? Do I just have to slap someone around? Do I have to shoot someone? Do I have to do prison time? How long do I have to be associated before I become an associate? Do I have to be an income producer, or can I just murder someone?

In regards to Anthony "Lib" Liberatore, I disagree with Allan. Tony Lib was a fucking union thoroughbred and had very tight control over LIUNA 860, the building was named after him. Plus, his brother Chester had tight control of local 310. Tony Lib was a huge earner for Cleveland and he was one tough son of a bitch. That guy could do a life sntence standing on his head.

[JCB1977]

Speaking of Tony Lib, his son is the secretary of local 860 now.

http://www.laborers860.com/about_us.php

[Stroccos]

Speaking of Tony Lib, his son is the secretary of local 860 now.

http://www.laborers860.com/about_us.php

Do you think there is anything to lib being A fbi informant ?

[Pogo The Clown]

Do you think there is anything to lib being A fbi informant ?

Considering how he spent most of his life in prison I would say no.


Pogo

[Stroccos]

Do you think there is anything to lib being A fbi informant ?

Considering how he spent most of his life in prison I would say no.


Pogo

He has been accused Dry snitching to the FBI .

[Pogo The Clown]

I don't know. If he was he certainly didn't get much out of it considering he spent almost 40 years of his life in prison and ended dying there.


Pogo

[Stroccos]

I don't know. If he was he certainly didn't get much out of it considering he spent almost 40 years of his life in prison and ended dying there.


Pogo

When your dry snitching you dont get nothing out of it from the feds . Your trying to jam up A rival, the competion or your envy causes you to dry snitch a freind.

[SonnyBlackstein]

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/fed ... -1.2792773

Feds targeting the idiot sons.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

I know a guy whohad a little oxycodone hustle going not too long ago , It can get lucrative. He stopped though, like completely , the buyers out here are so cheap, it isn't even worth it in most cases . Its something he did on his own, he says you cant trust anyone these days , and seems like the grandson, John Gotti, had his car tapped in which he bragged about it. Dumbass.

[phatmatress777]

I know a guy whohad a little oxycodone hustle going not too long ago , It can get lucrative. He stopped though, like completely , the buyers out here are so cheap, it isn't even worth it in most cases . Its something he did on his own, he says you cant trust anyone these days , and seems like the grandson, John Gotti, had his car tapped in which he bragged about it. Dumbass.

Most true users will just buy a bag of heroin for under ten bucks as opposed to an oxy which goes for about a buck an mg.


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