Targenmantarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:04 pm
People talk a lot of shit on Scarfo, Gotti, Amuso etc.
But when it came time to step up and walk their talk they all did or are still doing so.
May be evil or foolish. But they aren't cowards. They paid the Piper.
And re Scarfo.
Remember he was painted to be Hitler. And I'm sure he was awful. But the three people who wrote the books about him that essentially sourced his life story are Leonetti, Caramandi, and Delgiorno. All rats. The truth prolly lies somewhere in between.
Amuso too. He's described largely by D Arco and Casso and Defede etc.
. I don’t think they deserve praise lol. To be fair they were all bosses so unless they ratted on themselves there was no much to do lol.
Untrue.
Look at Massino, D'Arco, Defede, Casso, Natale, Lonardo, Palermo, Frattiano, Gravano etc.
Plenty of rats were Bosses acting bosses or underbosses.
You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was who cares if they didn’t rat or did. They are all pieces of shit
And I'd say that they are largely pieces of shit.
But you can't discount the selflessness of people who decide to sit in jail when they could trade their friends.
Cause plenty of other people took that easier option.
But the guys who didn't definitely made a conscious decision to endure a lotta pain so that their friends didn't have to.
So no they aren't all bad. If they were the. They'd just rat. That's the true amoral operator. Aka Scarpa.
its called integrity!...... an integrity for what many might call a dark cause, but an integrity nonetheless. Because even a lot of "so-called" legitimate people would fold like accordions under pressure. be it jail, death, money or any number of other reasons. ALL of which they "validate". but in truth are full of shit and self serving 99% of the time. (yes, there are the occasional guys who were "forced" into going "bad").
So to be a "stand up" guy, under any circumstances, is certainly an admirable thing! whether they are morally good, immoral or amoral is secondary to this conversation other than they had they "stuff" (balls, integrity, honor - or all of the above), or whatever you wanna call it, to at least not buy their freedom with the lives and misery of others; friends, foes, family, etc.
Targenmantarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:04 pm
People talk a lot of shit on Scarfo, Gotti, Amuso etc.
But when it came time to step up and walk their talk they all did or are still doing so.
May be evil or foolish. But they aren't cowards. They paid the Piper.
And re Scarfo.
Remember he was painted to be Hitler. And I'm sure he was awful. But the three people who wrote the books about him that essentially sourced his life story are Leonetti, Caramandi, and Delgiorno. All rats. The truth prolly lies somewhere in between.
Amuso too. He's described largely by D Arco and Casso and Defede etc.
. I don’t think they deserve praise lol. To be fair they were all bosses so unless they ratted on themselves there was no much to do lol.
Untrue.
Look at Massino, D'Arco, Defede, Casso, Natale, Lonardo, Palermo, Frattiano, Gravano etc.
Plenty of rats were Bosses acting bosses or underbosses.
You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was who cares if they didn’t rat or did. They are all pieces of shit
And I'd say that they are largely pieces of shit.
But you can't discount the selflessness of people who decide to sit in jail when they could trade their friends.
Cause plenty of other people took that easier option.
But the guys who didn't definitely made a conscious decision to endure a lotta pain so that their friends didn't have to.
So no they aren't all bad. If they were the. They'd just rat. That's the true amoral operator. Aka Scarpa.
its called integrity!...... an integrity for what many might call a dark cause, but an integrity nonetheless. Because even a lot of "so-called" legitimate people would fold like accordions under pressure. be it jail, death, money or any number of other reasons. ALL of which they "validate". but in truth are full of shit and self serving 99% of the time. (yes, there are the occasional guys who were "forced" into going "bad").
So to be a "stand up" guy, under any circumstances, is certainly an admirable thing! whether they are morally good, immoral or amoral is secondary to this conversation other than they had they "stuff" (balls, integrity, honor - or all of the above), or whatever you wanna call it, to at least not buy their freedom with the lives and misery of others; friends, foes, family, etc.
Not sure how they have integrity lol. I doubt they say “I’m gonna spend my time in jail because I love my fellow killers/criminals so much”. They do it for themselves mostly.
Targenmantarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:04 pm
People talk a lot of shit on Scarfo, Gotti, Amuso etc.
But when it came time to step up and walk their talk they all did or are still doing so.
May be evil or foolish. But they aren't cowards. They paid the Piper.
And re Scarfo.
Remember he was painted to be Hitler. And I'm sure he was awful. But the three people who wrote the books about him that essentially sourced his life story are Leonetti, Caramandi, and Delgiorno. All rats. The truth prolly lies somewhere in between.
Amuso too. He's described largely by D Arco and Casso and Defede etc.
. I don’t think they deserve praise lol. To be fair they were all bosses so unless they ratted on themselves there was no much to do lol.
Untrue.
Look at Massino, D'Arco, Defede, Casso, Natale, Lonardo, Palermo, Frattiano, Gravano etc.
Plenty of rats were Bosses acting bosses or underbosses.
You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was who cares if they didn’t rat or did. They are all pieces of shit
And I'd say that they are largely pieces of shit.
But you can't discount the selflessness of people who decide to sit in jail when they could trade their friends.
Cause plenty of other people took that easier option.
But the guys who didn't definitely made a conscious decision to endure a lotta pain so that their friends didn't have to.
So no they aren't all bad. If they were the. They'd just rat. That's the true amoral operator. Aka Scarpa.
I don’t call that “selfless”. Honestly I don’t think there is any difference in ratting or not they are ALL scum. Now one thing I do agree with you is that people who rat should still get heaven sentences even if there is a reduction, they should still spend a good chunk of their time in jail. However I don’t buy that people who sit in jail are “selfless”. My father and uncle were NY cops during the 70s and 80s when the mob was powerful and destroyed a lot of innocent people’s lives. These guys get what they deserved are aren’t “selfless”
They aren't good people. They are definitely harmful to society.
But again if they literally had no consideration for their fellow criminals then they'd all just rat and not take responsibility for their actions. And yet many of them choose to do hard time rather than evade it by tossing ithwrs under the bus. That is a selfless decision. Their other bad acts don't negate that good. Anymore than the good negates the bad. Lotta times the only good thing about a stand-up guy is that he stood up.
Standup guys know what it is and accept what they did and sit down for the time they are given.
And yes. They have zero consideration for civilians. That's not how their rules are written. They are only really responsible for being good to other crooks.
They aren’t “good” to other Crooks lol. Let me give you an example Gotti was fucking the wife of another member of his own family and eventually knocked her up, so how good is that? Both Amuso AND Scarfo killed their own guys who were actually loyal to them. So again how is that being “good” to other crooks. I’m not trying to sound like an asshole but I don’t see it lol
for every one of those disgusting things you read about (and I agree with you on that).... there are 5 good things done that are never known or spoken about. Nice, normal things people (friends) do for one another.... what you're reading about are the sensational things that sell papers. the more mundane things nobody wants to read about , its boring. and mostly don't even get bandied around publicly
Targenmantarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:04 pm
People talk a lot of shit on Scarfo, Gotti, Amuso etc.
But when it came time to step up and walk their talk they all did or are still doing so.
May be evil or foolish. But they aren't cowards. They paid the Piper.
And re Scarfo.
Remember he was painted to be Hitler. And I'm sure he was awful. But the three people who wrote the books about him that essentially sourced his life story are Leonetti, Caramandi, and Delgiorno. All rats. The truth prolly lies somewhere in between.
Amuso too. He's described largely by D Arco and Casso and Defede etc.
. I don’t think they deserve praise lol. To be fair they were all bosses so unless they ratted on themselves there was no much to do lol.
Untrue.
Look at Massino, D'Arco, Defede, Casso, Natale, Lonardo, Palermo, Frattiano, Gravano etc.
Plenty of rats were Bosses acting bosses or underbosses.
You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was who cares if they didn’t rat or did. They are all pieces of shit
And I'd say that they are largely pieces of shit.
But you can't discount the selflessness of people who decide to sit in jail when they could trade their friends.
Cause plenty of other people took that easier option.
But the guys who didn't definitely made a conscious decision to endure a lotta pain so that their friends didn't have to.
So no they aren't all bad. If they were the. They'd just rat. That's the true amoral operator. Aka Scarpa.
I don’t call that “selfless”. Honestly I don’t think there is any difference in ratting or not they are ALL scum. Now one thing I do agree with you is that people who rat should still get heaven sentences even if there is a reduction, they should still spend a good chunk of their time in jail. However I don’t buy that people who sit in jail are “selfless”. My father and uncle were NY cops during the 70s and 80s when the mob was powerful and destroyed a lot of innocent people’s lives. These guys get what they deserved are aren’t “selfless”
They aren't good people. They are definitely harmful to society.
But again if they literally had no consideration for their fellow criminals then they'd all just rat and not take responsibility for their actions. And yet many of them choose to do hard time rather than evade it by tossing ithwrs under the bus. That is a selfless decision. Their other bad acts don't negate that good. Anymore than the good negates the bad. Lotta times the only good thing about a stand-up guy is that he stood up.
Standup guys know what it is and accept what they did and sit down for the time they are given.
And yes. They have zero consideration for civilians. That's not how their rules are written. They are only really responsible for being good to other crooks.
They aren’t “good” to other Crooks lol. Let me give you an example Gotti was fucking the wife of another member of his own family and eventually knocked her up, so how good is that? Both Amuso AND Scarfo killed their own guys who were actually loyal to them. So again how is that being “good” to other crooks. I’m not trying to sound like an asshole but I don’t see it lol
for every one of those disgusting things you read about (and I agree with you on that).... there are 5 good things done that are never known or spoken about. Nice, normal things people (friends) do for one another.... what you're reading about are the sensational things that sell papers. the more mundane things nobody wants to read about , its boring. and mostly don't even get bandied around publicly
Come on man you can’t justify that. You cant just say “They killed a tons of people and robbed a bunch of people but it’s ok because they helped an old lady cross the street once” lol. Doesn’t work that way.
JMan723, you either have no clue or just want to preach. There are many who help others in and not in the life, and some who fit the image you are going out of your way to make everyone accept. Gotti was loyal to Ruggerio, who in turn was loyal to the guys on the tapes he would not turn over. There was a member of a New York family who was going to be killed, got chased instead, and was living miserable life out west. As he got older the guys who were his friends got him back, after they were turned down by the bosses several times. 25 years after he was allowed back, and taken care of by the wise guys who were his friends. Then we have the double crossers (mostly rats) who fit your profile of what the mob is like. You just want to say they all suck, are all no good, and for some strange reason add "lol" each time, like a giggling idiot.
If they wanted to do something for themselves purely then they'd just all rat.
No one gets killed for it.
Do they also stand up because they have an ego? Sure. There's self interest in that. But it doesn't negate the fact they saved a lotta guys they could have just tossed inside for their own benefit.
Leonetti likes to come off like he's a humanitarian. And I'm not gonna EVER say Scarfo wasn't evil.
But you better believe Scarfo would have eaten 5 life sentences if his nephew was free and would have cut his own throat before he turned him in.
Gotti was a bad person in many ways. But he sure as fuck would never have done to his brothers or Gravano what Sammy did to him.
Sometimes you go in for people you love. Sometimes for people you hate. But honor is what it is. In the words of Laryy Zannino "Don't underrate it."
Targenmantarian wrote: ↑Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:17 pm
If they wanted to do something for themselves purely then they'd just all rat.
No one gets killed for it.
Do they also stand up because they have an ego? Sure. There's self interest in that. But it doesn't negate the fact they saved a lotta guys they could have just tossed inside for their own benefit.
Leonetti likes to come off like he's a humanitarian. And I'm not gonna EVER say Scarfo wasn't evil.
But you better believe Scarfo would have eaten 5 life sentences if his nephew was free and would have cut his own throat before he turned him in.
Gotti was a bad person in many ways. But he sure as fuck would never have done to his brothers or Gravano what Sammy did to him.
Sometimes you go in for people you love. Sometimes for people you hate. But honor is what it is. In the words of Laryy Zannino "Don't underrate it."
I respectfully disagree. When you do so many horrific things it does matter IMO
Like I said. Oftentimes the ONLY redeeming aspect of a stand-up guy is that he's a stand-up guy.
Which is what makes people like that so fascinating. They'll break any law with a smile and fuck people over left and right and then go do years for someone they hate.
Absolutely. We both know what type of people they are. Look despite my feelings I know a good amount of mob history. I’m born in New York, Italian, my father was a cop, and my grandfather knew a bunch of these types of guys. I just don’t see the need to praise them for doing time for crimes they committed. That’s life and consequences of your actions
I think it's praiseworthy in the context of so many other people seeking to evade responsibility for their actions.
Back in the day yes. It was automatic.
Now it requires a lot of mental fortitude to endure that kind of suffering knowing you can escape it.
But I think there's something fundamentally unAmerucan about diming people out to lessen your culpability when you were the one who got jammed. And that's in any aspect of life.
I respect a good or bad person for their toughness if they refuse to bend and accept their punishment for their actions. As opposed to tossing other people in harm's way.
I’m not trying to convince you otherwise but I honestly don’t think they do it to “protect” the other guys. I think they do it mostly to pump up their own reputation. As we know looking at the Gotti jail tapes he had a very high opinion of himself. By the way speaking of Gotti his brother Gene had a chance to take a plea back in the 80s but his brother ordered him not to. Taking a plea isn’t ratting yet Gene has to do more time because his brother refused him taking a plea.
Some honor. Most honest dudes I know are street guys. And the least harmful. They just sell weed and book bets.
They don't go after anyone. And when they go to jail they just go.
Now are they the tiny minority amongst a million scumbags? Yes.
But then again they don't take from people so their mindset is prolly different than a predator who smacks people around and shoots at them etc. They just provide a niche and live their lives.
