Chicago Outfit-Related Murders 1970's

[Villain]

Regarding the DeLegge Jr hit....On January 20, 1976, only a year as he was paroled from prison, Frank DeLegge Jr. vanished from the face of the earth. Two days later, his frozen throat-slashed body was found in a ditch in Elmhurst. Story goes that he was killed because of the money that he allegedly stole from the Franklyn Park job because the Outfit never forgets. There’s also another version of the story and that is DeLegge Sr.’s huge gambling debts. Story goes that Junior vouched for his father but the problem was that Sr. never managed to payback and so in the world of the Mafia, the one who vouch for another individual is responsible for the actions of that same individual. There’s even a third version regarding the reason for DeLegge Jr.’s slaying, and that was his violent style towards his wife who in fact was Nick Palermo’s daughter. After the murder of DeLegge Jr., Palermo immediately sold the DeLegge house and bought his daughter a new apartment.

[Confederate]

Antiliar, you have wrong information. Snakes is correct.
Reference: United States versus International Brotherhood of Teamsters dated 7/12/1990
On page 40 of said Government Complaint against Senese, Talarico & Cozzo: Jimmy Cozzo is listed as a "made member" of Chicago La Cosa Nostra and is Joey Lombardo's right hand man and was the acting Boss of the Grand Avenue Crew when Lombardo was away.

Not all government docs are accurate, and to blindly accept everything in them is to have blind faith that's contradicted by reality. How many gov docs claimed that Ferriola was the top boss of the Outfit, only to be corrected later that he wasn't? In the Commission case, Fat Tony Salerno was the Genovese boss, then in a later case he wasn't in the same time period. The feds relied on people like Red Wemette, Frank Rosenthal and others for their information. I believe Red in this case since he knew first hand.

Well, okay. You believe Red Wemette and I'll believe the Government Complaint. Some of these informants have conflicting OPINIONS.
Also, you don't know for sure if Joe Ferriola WASN'T the top Boss FOR A VERY SHORT WHILE before Carlisi took over that duty.
He could have been the top boss for maybe 1 year before he got sick. Don't tell me that is impossible.

[Antiliar]

Not impossible does not mean likely. It's theoretically possible that a black hole will eat up Chicago tomorrow, but it's not likely. Yes, there are many different informants, but not all of them are of the same quality, and not all have first-hand information. Generally speaking, a made guy is going to have better info than one who isn't, and a high-ranking associate will also have better info compared to a low-ranking one. The motivation and integrity of the informant also has to be considered. Is the information self-serving or not? In Red's case, he not only has first-hand knowledge, but often made recordings of his meetings. Regarding Ferriola, the quality of information improved when Gerald Scarpelli gave detailed info on the hierarchy that the FBI didn't have before. Scarpelli was a made guy and had better access to inside information than he had before he was made, and he made it clear that Ferriola was not a boss. Lenny Patrick later confirmed some of what Scarpelli said. So I'll go with them, but you, Confederate, are free to believe who you want.

[Frank]

Antiliar, you have wrong information. Snakes is correct.
Reference: United States versus International Brotherhood of Teamsters dated 7/12/1990
On page 40 of said Government Complaint against Senese, Talarico & Cozzo: Jimmy Cozzo is listed as a "made member" of Chicago La Cosa Nostra and is Joey Lombardo's right hand man and was the acting Boss of the Grand Avenue Crew when Lombardo was away.

Not all government docs are accurate, and to blindly accept everything in them is to have blind faith that's contradicted by reality. How many gov docs claimed that Ferriola was the top boss of the Outfit, only to be corrected later that he wasn't? In the Commission case, Fat Tony Salerno was the Genovese boss, then in a later case he wasn't in the same time period. The feds relied on people like Red Wemette, Frank Rosenthal and others for their information. I believe Red in this case since he knew first hand.

Well, okay. You believe Red Wemette and I'll believe the Government Complaint. Some of these informants have conflicting OPINIONS.
Also, you don't know for sure if Joe Ferriola WASN'T the top Boss FOR A VERY SHORT WHILE before Carlisi took over that duty.
He could have been the top boss for maybe 1 year before he got sick. Don't tell me that is impossible.

With Scarpelli also stating that Ferriola wasn't boss, that is another person that says he wasn't boss. That makes it highly unlikely that he ever was boss. Scarpelli was from Ferriolas crew. It's easy if you look at it this way. Carlisi was an Aiuppa protege and was picked by Aiuppa to succeed him. DiFronzo came up under Cerone and Cerone picked him to succeed him. All with Accardo's approval.

[Snakes]

Ferriola's probably played a big part in him not being higher than what he was. He was barely active for the last couple years of his life.

[Confederate]

Not impossible does not mean likely. It's theoretically possible that a black hole will eat up Chicago tomorrow, but it's not likely. Yes, there are many different informants, but not all of them are of the same quality, and not all have first-hand information. Generally speaking, a made guy is going to have better info than one who isn't, and a high-ranking associate will also have better info compared to a low-ranking one. The motivation and integrity of the informant also has to be considered. Is the information self-serving or not? In Red's case, he not only has first-hand knowledge, but often made recordings of his meetings. Regarding Ferriola, the quality of information improved when Gerald Scarpelli gave detailed info on the hierarchy that the FBI didn't have before. Scarpelli was a made guy and had better access to inside information than he had before he was made, and he made it clear that Ferriola was not a boss. Lenny Patrick later confirmed some of what Scarpelli said. So I'll go with them, but you, Confederate, are free to believe who you want.

Regarding Ferriola, I'm just amazed that the F.B.I. could be COMPLETELY wrong about it especially when they had listening devices along with informants. Even Roemer, the Chicago F.B.I. agent said Ferriola was the Boss so I thought maybe he was the top boss for less than a year before he got sick. That's all.
As far ar Cozzo, are you saying he was NEVER MADE? He had to be AT LEAST made in 1987 AFTER Eboli was gone. LOL

[Snakes]

Roemer wasn't in the Chicago field office at the time. He was just a consultant. Calabrese says pretty definitively that Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa, too.

Antilliar never said that he wasn't ever made, only that Red (who is a windbag, but has some good intel) said he wasn't made when he knew him.

[Confederate]

Roemer wasn't in the Chicago field office at the time. He was just a consultant. Calabrese says pretty definitively that Carlisi succeeded Aiuppa, too.

Antilliar never said that he wasn't ever made, only that Red (who is a windbag, but has some good intel) said he wasn't made when he knew him.

Okay. Thanks for the clarification.

[Antiliar]

Confederate,

What you have to understand is that gathering intel is a very difficult task. Go to Mary Ferrell and read the ELSURs, the transcriptions of the recordings. Rarely do the Cosa Nostra members ever come out and state someone's rank. They make references to past events using nicknames and shorthand, almost speaking in code. It takes a great deal of knowledge to decipher what they said, and sometimes it takes years for agents to figure what was said, if they can figure it out at all. It's similar with informants. Some are better than others, some have mixed motives, some give false information. Agents also don't question informants in the same way historians do. They are more interested in crimes and getting convictions. So it's not that difficult for them to make mistakes, but they usually correct them later. It's like a scientific hypothesis. As more data comes in, the hypothesis is tightened up, sharpened, and improved.

[Pete]

Antiliar, you have wrong information. Snakes is correct.
Reference: United States versus International Brotherhood of Teamsters dated 7/12/1990
On page 40 of said Government Complaint against Senese, Talarico & Cozzo: Jimmy Cozzo is listed as a "made member" of Chicago La Cosa Nostra and is Joey Lombardo's right hand man and was the acting Boss of the Grand Avenue Crew when Lombardo was away.

Not all government docs are accurate, and to blindly accept everything in them is to have blind faith that's contradicted by reality. How many gov docs claimed that Ferriola was the top boss of the Outfit, only to be corrected later that he wasn't? In the Commission case, Fat Tony Salerno was the Genovese boss, then in a later case he wasn't in the same time period. The feds relied on people like Red Wemette, Frank Rosenthal and others for their information. I believe Red in this case since he knew first hand.

Well, okay. You believe Red Wemette and I'll believe the Government Complaint. Some of these informants have conflicting OPINIONS.
Also, you don't know for sure if Joe Ferriola WASN'T the top Boss FOR A VERY SHORT WHILE before Carlisi took over that duty.
He could have been the top boss for maybe 1 year before he got sick. Don't tell me that is impossible.

I would say we know for sure ferriola wasn't boss. Both calabrese and scarpelli said carlisi took over for aiuppa. Calabrese was very clear that ferriola wasn't even a capo. No ones word has more weight than two made guys. Doesn't get much more clear than that does it?

[Pete]

The Feds have been wrong about many things. The only time you don't defer though to the Feds is if a made guy has testified otherwise in my opinion which happened in this case

[Confederate]

Confederate,

What you have to understand is that gathering intel is a very difficult task. Go to Mary Ferrell and read the ELSURs, the transcriptions of the recordings. Rarely do the Cosa Nostra members ever come out and state someone's rank. They make references to past events using nicknames and shorthand, almost speaking in code. It takes a great deal of knowledge to decipher what they said, and sometimes it takes years for agents to figure what was said, if they can figure it out at all. It's similar with informants. Some are better than others, some have mixed motives, some give false information. Agents also don't question informants in the same way historians do. They are more interested in crimes and getting convictions. So it's not that difficult for them to make mistakes, but they usually correct them later. It's like a scientific hypothesis. As more data comes in, the hypothesis is tightened up, sharpened, and improved.

Very good explanation. I apologize if i questioned it too much. This is what made me drift towards Chicago in the first place because it is really convoluted at times. I read Roemer's book and since he was an F.B.I agent who placed that bug in that Taylor shop in 1959, I put a lot of stock in what he said but I do understand your point very clearly. It's like a work always in progress based upon several forms of information.

[Confederate]

The Feds have been wrong about many things. The only time you don't defer though to the Feds is if a made guy has testified otherwise in my opinion which happened in this case

Yes, I see your point. Good explanation.
Based upon that other document that we talked about on the PM. wouldn't you agree that Cozzo was made at some point?

[Pete]

The Feds have been wrong about many things. The only time you don't defer though to the Feds is if a made guy has testified otherwise in my opinion which happened in this case

Yes, I see your point. Good explanation.
Based upon that other document that we talked about on the PM. wouldn't you agree that Cozzo was made at some point?

Even not considering the document I would say he was made but the document confirms it. Usually to be identied as made in a gov document they have to have very strong intelligence that says that someone is. I also would have trouble believing he was running grand Ave if he wasn't made. He certainly could have been made after Red was in the picture but either way I wouldn't change my whole thinking on if someone was made or not based on the word of a non Italian associate

[Antiliar]

I agree that Cozzo could have been made later. I know some people I can ask. By the way, here's another source who says Cozzo wasn't made, at least during that time period: https://books.google.com/books?id=ey3FC ... 22&f=false