Number of murdered members per family

[toto]

I don't think members of families before 1931 should be referred to being members of the current families. The families were re-organized about then and so if it would be more correct to refer to the members being members of the families of that time. I don't know if anybody else agrees to that.

[Ed]

Genovese

Anthony "Little Pussy" Russo (1979)

[B.]

I don't think members of families before 1931 should be referred to being members of the current families. The families were re-organized about then and so if it would be more correct to refer to the members being members of the families of that time. I don't know if anybody else agrees to that.

I know where you're coming from but I strongly disagree. The families weren't really re-organized, just the hierarchies changed and the leaders of the families had some "heart to heart" discussions about the collective direction they wanted to go in. The majority of members stayed with the families they were with pre-1931

[Pogo The Clown]

Genovese

Anthony "Little Pussy" Russo (1979)

Yeah Little Pussy. You think he is gonna fuck with Big Pussy? My Pussy?


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Luccheses:
Fortunato “Charley” Lo Monte (1914)
Nicolo "Nick Terranova" Morello (1916)
Salvatore Loiacano (1922)

I am not saying that you are wrong. But I am hesitant to cement this as fact despite B. making some very good points that made me reevaluate some things.

From what we know through informants, intel reports from that time, Loicano was killed because Morello did not approve of his handling of things. From the intel the SS gained, Loiacano's murder split "the gang" into two factions. Those loyal to Loiacano and those loyal to Morello. Zoom out you have, at the same time according to Gentile, a death warrant put on Morello from BOB D'aquila. Months prior when Morello had been released, there was a large banquet held for him and money sent. When Lupo was released later, a similar shindig was held for him in Brooklyn. These revealings kinda serve where they stood in the mafia atmosphere. But then actions were taken on the behalf of Morello which caused friction. And given that D'Aquila and Loiacano lived blocks apart on Elizabeth, he was the first boss, following the murders of Lo Monte, to toe the D'Aquila line. Evidently Morello did not approve of his "handling of affairs."

Both families lineage come from the interior of Sicily, from Corleone to Villafrati (Loiacano's hometown is Marimeo which is a city in between.) But the Lo Monte's where Morello allies, as was verified by Clemente in their proximity to the Terranovas.

In short, if put Giuseppe "Don Piddu" Morello on a pedestal and give him some dap, he is the Godfather of the Genovese family with Masseria as his linebacker. Prior to that, he was Boss of one of the three Families in the 1900' and served as capo dei capi of NYC and the American Mafia with his influence extending to Chicago, New Orleans, most like San Fran as well. But if we go with stone cold mafia politics, then technically, Don Toto D'Aquila, capo dei capi, decreed Morello and anyone associated with him an outcast in 1921. Those willing to toe the line would welcome longtime member Reina as their new boss. Reina took over remnants of the Corleonesi network (interior Sicily) from Harlem/Bronx, but so did Morello-Masseria in Harlem/Lower Manhattan/Brooklyn (there were probably members in each area, it wasn't a regional breakoff so members like Cecala, Clemente, Cina and who went with who is lost to history. We know that in 1922 Angelo Reina was hiding out from D'Aquila hitmen.

Again, not saying you are wrong. It's just I feel partly responsible for that becoming almost a fact and I feel it's very grey and up for discussion.

[bronx]

Chris..you know your history, it is so hard to figure out all the splits among these men, there was a story in one of the n.y. papers i believe mid seventies, called the two hundred..it was about daquila and his crew, a lot of them in his rein got killed..bensonhurst at the time was called bath beach,,so many murders it was called bloody bath beach.. i wish i kept that story. daquila lived on 17th ave and 84th 85th st . then moved back to the bronx.who was a major player through all those years and after toto's death was traina, don piduutz.he was consiglieri, he also attended the cleveland meet dec 28, toto d. was very close to those guys, traina ,was sent to many cities around the country to keep peace after toto was killed. he lived to 100 if i remember..

[rayray]

Would suicide count?

Nicholas Stefanelli Jr. (Gambino) 2012

Frank Nitti (Chicago) 1943

[Angelo Santino]

Chris..you know your history, it is so hard to figure out all the splits among these men, there was a story in one of the n.y. papers i believe mid seventies, called the two hundred..it was about daquila and his crew, a lot of them in his rein got killed..bensonhurst at the time was called bath beach,,so many murders it was called bloody bath beach.. i wish i kept that story. daquila lived on 17th ave and 84th 85th st . then moved back to the bronx.who was a major player through all those years and after toto's death was traina, don piduutz.he was consiglieri, he also attended the cleveland meet dec 28, toto d. was very close to those guys, traina ,was sent to many cities around the country to keep peace after toto was killed. he lived to 100 if i remember..

Interesting article sounds like. But we really don't know what Traina's official position was or how many times that's changed. Gentile attended a national meeting regarding the Scaglia brothers of CO and at that particular meeting D'Aquila could not attend so Traina acted as his substitute. It doesn't say Traina was The Substitute in a permanent capacity. Which would indicate he was The Under. Given his close proximity we can surmise that he was very high up. But I've seen nothing that officially has Traina as underboss or consigliere. He could just as easily have been only a capodecina during D'Aquila's tenure.

[bronx]

Chris..you know your history, it is so hard to figure out all the splits among these men, there was a story in one of the n.y. papers i believe mid seventies, called the two hundred..it was about daquila and his crew, a lot of them in his rein got killed..bensonhurst at the time was called bath beach,,so many murders it was called bloody bath beach.. i wish i kept that story. daquila lived on 17th ave and 84th 85th st . then moved back to the bronx.who was a major player through all those years and after toto's death was traina, don piduutz.he was consiglieri, he also attended the cleveland meet dec 28, toto d. was very close to those guys, traina ,was sent to many cities around the country to keep peace after toto was killed. he lived to 100 if i remember..

Interesting article sounds like. But we really don't know what Traina's official position was or how many times that's changed. Gentile attended a national meeting regarding the Scaglia brothers of CO and at that particular meeting D'Aquila could not attend so Traina acted as his substitute. It doesn't say Traina was The Substitute in a permanent capacity. Which would indicate he was The Under. Given his close proximity we can surmise that he was very high up. But I've seen nothing that officially has Traina as underboss or consigliere. He could just as easily have been only a capodecina during D'Aquila's tenure.

Hello Chris he wa consiglieri.ill fill that whole in ,he had a club in that era on elizabeth street, even after toto's death guys like lucky went there.

[Angelo Santino]

Chris..you know your history, it is so hard to figure out all the splits among these men, there was a story in one of the n.y. papers i believe mid seventies, called the two hundred..it was about daquila and his crew, a lot of them in his rein got killed..bensonhurst at the time was called bath beach,,so many murders it was called bloody bath beach.. i wish i kept that story. daquila lived on 17th ave and 84th 85th st . then moved back to the bronx.who was a major player through all those years and after toto's death was traina, don piduutz.he was consiglieri, he also attended the cleveland meet dec 28, toto d. was very close to those guys, traina ,was sent to many cities around the country to keep peace after toto was killed. he lived to 100 if i remember..

Interesting article sounds like. But we really don't know what Traina's official position was or how many times that's changed. Gentile attended a national meeting regarding the Scaglia brothers of CO and at that particular meeting D'Aquila could not attend so Traina acted as his substitute. It doesn't say Traina was The Substitute in a permanent capacity. Which would indicate he was The Under. Given his close proximity we can surmise that he was very high up. But I've seen nothing that officially has Traina as underboss or consigliere. He could just as easily have been only a capodecina during D'Aquila's tenure.

Hello Chris he wa consiglieri.ill fill that whole in ,he had a club in that era on elizabeth street, even after toto's death guys like lucky went there.

Do you have a source confirming that?

[Angelo Santino]

I don't think members of families before 1931 should be referred to being members of the current families. The families were re-organized about then and so if it would be more correct to refer to the members being members of the families of that time. I don't know if anybody else agrees to that.

I know where you're coming from but I strongly disagree. The families weren't really re-organized, just the hierarchies changed and the leaders of the families had some "heart to heart" discussions about the collective direction they wanted to go in. The majority of members stayed with the families they were with pre-1931

The only thing that changed was the political position of Capo dei capi, who before 1931 presided over the national "general assembly" which were meetings of national leaders (official bosses as well as members), above that was the Grand Council which we know very little of. It might have consisted of the most supreme bosses nationally, but this group existed by 1908, when transportation was just starting to become more efficient. Mafia interstate business largely was dealt through coded letters, some of which the SS confiscated as "Black Hand" letters. 30 years later, following the murder of D'Aquila in a power grab by Masseria, and Maranzano's challenge two years later, might fit into Hollywood's version, but to the average member, those events were cutting into their profits. It made sense to take away that coveted position and form a national committee of leaders who met regularly, and held national meetings (a continuation of the general assembly which existed since the 1900's) ever five years.

But in the day the day, on the street, things changed very little. Everyone affiliated was out to make a living, with bootlegging this made certain members millionaires, something unheard of a decade prior! Despite family affiliations which take precedent, members who were on homogeneous 13th St or Elizabeth St in Manhatten bumped elbows with members of the other families (Gambino, Gen/Luc, Bonanno). Members like to congregate. The Cast War was not a "one side kill the other" war. Most murders were strategic hits of top/influential members. Bonanno even admitted they didn't know who killed Morello or Pinzola and later found out it was the Reina family and they joined forced after ironing that out. It wasn't like the movie 300. Lucania came up associated with Gambinos, he ended up a Genovese, Joe Masseria was more associated with the Bonannos in his early criminal tenure but also ended up a Genovese. Both guys operated in areas where multiple families had members.

[B.]

I was doing some reading this morning, and this must have come from Nick Gentile, but the source claimed that the six member Commission (what we know now as the same Commission that was busted in the mid-1980s) was proposed immediately following Masseria's death but Maranzano raised a fuss and instead they opted to promote him to boss of bosses. When he was killed, they revisited the idea and put the previously discussed Commission into place.

What I also didn't know/realize is that despite being Maranzano's chief ally and one of his spies in the Mineo family, Scalise had turned on Maranzano and was instrumental in Maranzano's downfall. It sounds like Scalise was not deposed as boss for his loyalty to Maranzano after all. Maybe some of you were aware of that but I must have missed it before.

Another interesting thing is the FBI's notes on the 1928 Cleveland meeting. They clearly acknowledge that the post-1931 "cosa nostra" is identical with "l'onorata societa". Doesn't appear the FBI (or at least certain well-informed parts of it) believed in the 1931 creation myth.

Random other bits I found interesting...
- One source says that the organization included Sicilians, Calabrians, and Neapolitans, and only later did it allow Italians from other provinces.

- A source says that members in America who travel to Sicily cannot be automatically accepted into local organizations (i.e. with written letters and recommendations), but CAN be accepted if they prove themselves to the local organization.

[Angelo Santino]

I was doing some reading this morning, and this must have come from Nick Gentile, but the source claimed that the six member Commission (what we know now as the same Commission that was busted in the mid-1980s) was proposed immediately following Masseria's death but Maranzano raised a fuss and instead they opted to promote him to boss of bosses. When he was killed, they revisited the idea and put the previously discussed Commission into place.

My take away too.

What I also didn't know/realize is that despite being Maranzano's chief ally and one of his spies in the Mineo family, Scalise had turned on Maranzano and was instrumental in Maranzano's downfall. It sounds like Scalise was not deposed as boss for his loyalty to Maranzano after all. Maybe some of you were aware of that but I must have missed it before.

Same takeaway. But being moderate about it: Gentile is one source told from a rival faction Bonanno is another source as a Maranzano underling. They are sources and we can argue their validity, but beyond that I would not, neither would you most likely, feel comfortable standing by this or that as more information becomes available and things we thought true in 2000 were obsolete by 2010 and so forth. There is always more info to be ganined. Sometimes from new sources, other times a reevaluation of primary sources (my takeaway may be totally different from yours.) We as researchers, put aside our egos and go for the "truth." We as educators need to be able to source shit.

Another interesting thing is the FBI's notes on the 1928 Cleveland meeting. They clearly acknowledge that the post-1931 "cosa nostra" is identical with "l'onorata societa". Doesn't appear the FBI (or at least certain well-informed parts of it) believed in the 1931 creation myth.

Things were altered from the top, but for the day to day: "there was a war and then one day there wasn't" and that's a quote. No one was pulled aside and told: "Okay, all the old Mustaches are dead, we are forming a new National Crime Syndicate and we will call it Cosa Nostra and carry on with the initiation ceremony. From now on, Italians not from Sicily will be admitted. There'll be a boss, underboss, consig, capidecina and soldati. Now everyone line up to find out your place in this thing of ours." This didn't happen. There were periods of integration (my next project which I'm going to be vague on) but by 1931, there was a mafia, it had ranks, what changed is it's infusion of mainlanders. But similar to the legalization of gay marriage and how the "gay movement" existed long prior to 2013, the same was such as A) non-Sicilians being admitted into the mafia, B) a national governing body and C) the mafiosi as an individual is required to bring in capital as opposed to serving as a labor force for a captain, although that has occurred and much more so in the 70's.

Random other bits I found interesting...
- One source says that the organization included Sicilians, Calabrians, and Neapolitans, and only later did it allow Italians from other provinces.

From what I found, the mafia graduated from Sicilian to Italian as the general society did, perhaps slower than the general Italian pop. But the 1920's with bootlegging was a gamechanger. It turned scrapping and scraping down on their luck Italo-gangsters into millionaires. What does the Mafia bring in? Established local criminal entrepreneurs, family and loyal associates. The criminal element of Sicilians (Mafia) flowed with the mainstream Italian society and survived because they adjusted to the new world. Had they kept it Sicilian-only the Genoveses and, arguably, the Luccheses would have died out like the Quakers and eventually so would have the other 3. Or at the very least, be at 1/4 of their power and influence, same with Philly.

- A source says that members in America who travel to Sicily cannot be automatically accepted into local organizations (i.e. with written letters and recommendations), but CAN be accepted if they prove themselves to the local organization.

True again, but what time period are we speaking of? Based off Gentile and his recollection of events, members in America and Sicily were recognized on an ad hoc basis. Letters of recommendation has to be sent (Back then, the Mafia DID write things down to be mailed!) for one member to be validated from one city to another. If someone moved from NY to Buffalo and said he was So&So and knew Benny Gallo personally, whoever was who in Buffalo at the time would have contacted through emissary or mail to Nick Schiro to ask Benny Gallo to confirm So&So as Member. if the ok came back, he was accepted, if not then no. It was based on a boss'/reppresentante's decision. We know that in 1908, Morello refused to recognize someone from Corleone who had made a name for himself in New Orleans and wished to be recognized in Chicago, Morello refused to validate him, reason being no one who was anyone (the letter was signed "All of Corleone" members who did not know this individual but only knew of his background was that he came from "a good family" which at the time (1900's) would have been a term for law abiding family and not a code-word for mafia family.

After 1931. things stabilized and Italian migration settled except for Ohio River Valley Italo-Americans relocating to California which occurred from the 1910's to the 1960's and beyond. We know that relatives followed relatives but that early one, it appears to have been a question of economics. But that makes sense as the Mafiosi as an individual person is out to make a living.

[Bontade]

Steve Ferrigno previously consisted Neapolitan Camorra crime family led by Pellegrino "Don Grino" Morano?

[Eld]

For the Gambinos:

Ralph Broccoli, 1978.

And Ralph Broccoli was waiting for a companion in a nearly empty restaurant when three gunmen cut him down...

The 35-year-old Mr. Broccoli is listed in city and Federal law‐enforcement files as a soldier” in the Gambino organization.

http://www.nytimes.com/1978/02/14/archi ... .html?_r=0