Scott article on current state of KC mob

[Pogo The Clown]

It is funny how Scott gets defended and seemingly a pass for his claims. I can just imagine what would happen if some author would come on the forums claiming that the Gambino Syndicate, founded by the Godfather Carlo Gambino, have 500 made members (including a Greek guy as a made member), thousands of Associates, are active in 14 states, control 1/4 of the drug trade in NY/NJ with 'Don' Frank Cali overseeing it. Everyone would be eating his lunch and he would quickly be written off as a hack. It wouldn't matter how nice he was or what sources he claimed he got it from or if he were published. Ah well what are you gonna do.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

It is funny how Scott gets defended and seemingly a pass for his claims. I can just imagine what would happen if some author would come on the forums claiming that the Gambino Syndicate, founded by the Godfather Carlo Gambino, have 500 made members (including a Greek guy as a made member), thousands of Associates, are active in 14 states, control 1/4 of the drug trade in NY/NJ with 'Don' Frank Cali overseeing it. Everyone would be eating his lunch and he would quickly be written off as a hack. It wouldn't matter how nice he was or what sources he claimed he got it from or if he were published. Ah well what are you gonna do.


Pogo

This can't be argued with.

[B.]

One thing I can say for him is he puts his name on everything he does. Some might see it as self-promotion, but the other side of the coin is that he opens himself up to criticism every time he writes something or posts.

He seemed pretty open to feedback and information when he was writing the Leonetti book and overall he did a solid job, though it was clearly not his area of expertise. Could have used some editing given that it talks a lot about the previously unknown mafia rank of "solider", but he basically let Leonetti do the storytelling and added context.

Detroit is another story and I don't know enough to comment. Personally I find the charts for them ridiculous at first glance, but I also know zero about them past or present. It could be that the Detroit family is that delusional and grandiose that they need a Jew named "Hesh" to be their Consigliere of the Chosen People and a panel of old men who meet to decide which sucker is going to coach the Lions.

[Angelo Santino]

I disagree with both of you but we're not going to agree. Scott's going to have to stand on his sources and if the last KC article is anything, I hope you both continue to scrutinize him with your bullshit meter but give him props for the sources that are confirmed. Bats agreed with what Scott mostly laid out. Some credit is deserved for that.

I go back to when I was 16 when I first came on here. I was a "book" historian then, I was influenced by Mafia Dynasty, the Last Testament, Gotti: Rise and Fall, the Valachi Papers and a personally autographed Joe Bonanno book that I had laminated. If my 16 year old self came on here today, my current self would pick his facts apart. I could mock my younger self for "believing in too many books based on books based on incorrect books" or I could have "suggested" things he may want to look up for himself... Scott's not deceptive, lying or in this for money. As imperfect as he is, as I was at 16 and am today, can't we at least agree to respect his attempts but continue to scrutinize his work for accuracy? The guy may improve his work because that's what he's always trying to do. You guys won, he no longer drops a 60 member Detroit list, instead he lists who he can confirm and provides sources. If he was lying in the traditional sense he could have said there's 30 extra members from inside info that only he knows, but what did he do instead? He sourced what he could confirm. You won, he adjusted. We're all out for truth. We'd all rather say we don't know instead of lie and say we do.

That was my main beef with Chicago (apart from his fucking ninny bitch emails) was that he wasn't honest. His story would change to win the argument. A discussion about one Chicago crew comes up he's Lombardi's nephew on one forum and English's son on BB and the son of the mob lawyer on here. Fair enough, enough people play make believe online, one of my twitter handles is WellEndowed but anyway,when he injected himself into the discussion, demanding to be taken seriously about certain facts because his relative is this or that... <----- that type of personality is the kind that deserves to be ridiculed and discounted, whereas Scott is one to be argued with and debated. He's not always accurate but he's an honest guy so why not extend to him people would/should a 16 year old me? I once argued to the moderator of NYMH that I think Luciano was innocent because I read Last Testament and believe his side. The mod sent me a PM telling me I havn't looked at the trial transcripts and other sources. He was right. Look where I am today? An expert on an era very few care about, so suck it!

[Angelo Santino]

And here's a Gotcha example:



I can't confirm 9.5/10s of these guys as being made. And on a personal level, I think there were very few made guys in that era. But all these names existed. If someone where to ask me about anyone of them as to why they are on that list I could explain why. But if you asked me to confirm if he was made- officially went through the ceremony, no I could not. Stella Fraud (I put her on there I think), a broad!? Is Chris Christie advocating that a woman was made in the Mafia in 1890? (!!!!-Fake). Structure, ranks aside, she was part of the mafia bloodline of the early 1890's-1900 bloodline that we know today as the Genovese family. Do I think she was an official made member? The answer is no, but she was prominent, made/nonmade aside, individuals have been instrumental in making this network work be it Henry Hill in Brooklyn . in her role as Salvatore Clemente's wife and the NY Corleonesi counterfeiting rackets in the late 1890's and early 1900's that Cascio Ferro was associated with early on. Member or not, she was associated with the Corleonese society as an active participant since women can't be made. If she's on that list under the title "Sicilian Mafiosi" then I'm a fucking liar based on your methodology. Do you think I am a bullshitter due to some self-serving interest???.... The net question is to zoom in: who we can identify as made (mostly the bosses since wellll, they were bosses) and a few members here and there being called members of the "mafia" or "black hand" which were few and far in between.

One could take the argument that since I, Rick, Lennert can't prove those names as being officially Made Members that our article is bullshit. Or you can look at it from our perspective: apart from the bosses, we went into this with the knowing that we can't confirm who was made and who wasn't. If information surfaced about so-and-so being a prominent figure on James St. who answered to Morello, we weren't quick to call him "caporegime," he went with "described as an 'influential figure.'" We can confirm who "ran" in these networks. But let's say, for example, someone came along one day demanding that I/we explain why each of these members were Made Sicilian Mafiosi, we would get an - - - - F and my counter would be: Morello was the boss of bosses, how could he not be made? There's no official documentation of him ever going through a mafia ceremony. Law enforcement was too adolescent in its approach to OC on both sides of the Atlantic. You get the idea: we, as researchers and as educators run into some very serious dilemmas in how to explain this stuff. Creative criticism works better than discounting. Scott doesn't deserve to be discounted. His work should evaluated and questioned with a ? not a !.

[B.]

"Mustache Pete" Morello couldn't have been made, we all know that. They didn't start having inductions until La Cosa Nostra was invented in 1931, bro.

[Angelo Santino]

"Mustache Pete" Morello couldn't have been made, we all know that. They didn't start having inductions until La Cosa Nostra was invented in 1931, bro.

Damn, dawg, that's right. Thank god for Luciano, the George Washington of This Thing Of Ours for anyone who really knows.

[B.]

He thought he was "Little Caesar" Maranzano, but he was really "Fat Joe" Masseria.

[Angelo Santino]

He thought he was "Little Caesar" Maranzano, but he was really "Fat Joe" Masseria.

Who Piddu? He was a chronic masterbater. He wore a blanket to cover his deformed right hand but his left hand was fuckin boss. He'd use the blanket to cover his dexterr as a rag for wiping loads with his sinister, especially after commission meets with Lupo and Orlando. He was an early John D'Amato, take it from me because I am Joe Bonanno's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate! And speaking of Uncle Joe, he and Little Ceasar used to dock. Now you know why he's called Little Ceasar, Don Peppino was circularized on Marcy in 1906 and was sporting a WW2 helmet while Sal had a Mustache Pete uncircumsized ant eater. Who you think won out? And that's why Charley Lucky had "No quarrel" with Don Peppino. Fact

[HairyKnuckles]

Chris, when your, Rick´s and Lennert´s article came out, you presented it as an alternative theory. It was clear from the very start that the article should not be regarded as fact but a work out of extensive research presenting a theory. The article was a result of that. At front page of the issue of Informer where your article can be found, it says "Sicilian hometown allegiance and kinship ties MAY have played larger roles in early Mafia development than previously thought." How can anyone argue against an article when it´s put like that? And that´s the difference between your guys´ excellent work and the work of somebody who states everything as a fact, providing no sources. And on top of that, works by Scott for example are very often going against established facts based on sources of considerable importance. Authors of those kind of work, should be open for and prepared for criticism.