Peter Lovaglio Interview

[CabriniGreen]

If you don't think
A) people wouldn't prefer to be made into the Gambinos vs Cleveland/ Colombos/Decav's/insert whatever family you want
And
B) You don't have more connections with the Binos than Cleve...

I don't know what to say.

And don't bother with the strawman garbage

"It's not like a sports team"
"I weighed up my decision based on rational criteria..."
"It's not like you get to choose your rackets..."

Go pick arguments with someone who actually said the above.

If you don't think the Westside carries more weight on the street than Cleveland. "Cuz dey all made guys", more power to you.

Interesting arguments. In their book, they said DeMeo actively sought to be made into the Gambinos over the Luchesses because he perceived them to be the stronger family.

[InCamelot]

If you don't think
A) people wouldn't prefer to be made into the Gambinos vs Cleveland/ Colombos/Decav's/insert whatever family you want
And
B) You don't have more connections with the Binos than Cleve...

I don't know what to say.

And don't bother with the strawman garbage

"It's not like a sports team"
"I weighed up my decision based on rational criteria..."
"It's not like you get to choose your rackets..."

Go pick arguments with someone who actually said the above.

If you don't think the Westside carries more weight on the street than Cleveland. "Cuz dey all made guys", more power to you.

Interesting arguments. In their book, they said DeMeo actively sought to be made into the Gambinos over the Luchesses because he perceived them to be the stronger family.

Johnny and Tony are right in clarifying that associates getting to choose doesn't happen often but its happened at least once before, such as the situation where my criticism of RJ Roger stemmed from (I believe him and Scars were talking about Chris Paciello)

But let's not accidentally mutate the point from:
There are actually other factors that potential members might consider other than simply the 'strength', size or notoriety of a family and its members. A further review of this secret society from a more realistic lens might suggest that. (especially since RJ has said multiple times "I've read everything there is to read about this genre)

to

Guys do not ever ever ever think about the perceived 'strength' of a family

I'm sure wiseguys are human too and can occasionally fantasize about a situation where members show up in full force on the street for a war like they're Triads or something

[Manf]

Was the whole guys who couldn’t get made in New York would go to New Jersey to be with the DeCavalcante’s a weird media narrative or was is something that guys in the street actually talked about?

[johnny_scootch]

Some guy puts a claim on you, puts you under his wing, etc and generally that determines the subsequent paths open to you.

This….100%

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

And this.

[johnny_scootch]

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

Let me add something here, if you’re a big earner and you’re on record with say a member of the Lucchese family and that member dies you are 100% considered property of the Lucchese family and you will be reassigned to another Lucchese member. You don’t become a free agent again, you’re stuck with them unless they decide to release you or trade you.

[gohnjotti]

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

Let me add something here, if you’re a big earner and you’re on record with say a member of the Lucchese family and that member dies you are 100% considered property of the Lucchese family and you will be reassigned to another Lucchese member. You don’t become a free agent again, you’re stuck with them unless they decide to release you or trade you.

Good point, it would likely involve a sit-down if a member from another family wanted to "claim" him.

[gohnjotti]

If you don't think
A) people wouldn't prefer to be made into the Gambinos vs Cleveland/ Colombos/Decav's/insert whatever family you want
And
B) You don't have more connections with the Binos than Cleve...

I don't know what to say.

And don't bother with the strawman garbage

"It's not like a sports team"
"I weighed up my decision based on rational criteria..."
"It's not like you get to choose your rackets..."

Go pick arguments with someone who actually said the above.

If you don't think the Westside carries more weight on the street than Cleveland. "Cuz dey all made guys", more power to you.

Interesting arguments. In their book, they said DeMeo actively sought to be made into the Gambinos over the Luchesses because he perceived them to be the stronger family.

Johnny and Tony are right in clarifying that associates getting to choose doesn't happen often but its happened at least once before, such as the situation where my criticism of RJ Roger stemmed from (I believe him and Scars were talking about Chris Paciello)

But let's not accidentally mutate the point from:
There are actually other factors that potential members might consider other than simply the 'strength', size or notoriety of a family and its members. A further review of this secret society from a more realistic lens might suggest that. (especially since RJ has said multiple times "I've read everything there is to read about this genre)

to

Guys do not ever ever ever think about the perceived 'strength' of a family

I'm sure wiseguys are human too and can occasionally fantasize about a situation where members show up in full force on the street for a war like they're Triads or something

You're right about Paciello, and he's not the first or last person whose had that decision. And yes, I'm sure associates are somewhat aware of the relative strengths of different crime families; we know they read Gang Land and the newspapers like everyone else, after all, and I'm sure there are many gossip-y discussions on the street about whose the boss of X family and how X family is coping after the latest rash of indictments. I guess my argument is simply that associates, especially the generation of associates post-1980, are so far removed from the politicking of Mafia families beyond what they hear through gossip and read in the newspapers. One example, I believe from a wiretap that I read about in the "Five Families" book, had a Lucchese made member confused about who the boss of his family was compared with the boss of another family. I wish I could recall the exact example, but it should highlight how seldom information trickles down to non-made members. Today we live in the digital age of Mafia snitches making podcasts, but a young associate of the '90s likely wouldn't have considered which family has more overall "rackets" and "manpower" because he wouldn't have known either way.

It's like any other criminal gang, an MC club or a Bloods or Crips set. I don't think there is any picking-and-choosing who to join based on macro-factors like overall strength or earning potential, they join whichever gang can successfully indoctrinate them.

And to circle back to one of SonnyBlackstein's original points, I am fairly certain that - to an unmade guy - any "made" member carries a similar level of weight. I understand there is evidence suggesting the DeCavalcantes in particular are viewed as the bastard family of the New York Five (a theme played out in the Sopranos too), and given the DeCavalcantes have no more than a couple of dozens members, it's plausible that associates would seek to align themselves with one of the NY Five instead, if they ever have that opportunity. But again, I don't think a made Colombo member is treated with noticeably less respect or deference at sit-downs than a Genovese member. Rules are rules, and the Mafia's adherence to those rules are part of what guarantees their longevity over other financially-driven criminal enterprises.

[B.]

In the old days it could be even more confusing given the lack of public info. Pre-1960s an associate's perception was that the soldier he was with was under a captain in "Albert's" Family and if he was well-connected and had been around would know Albert succeeded "Don Vincenzino" but things like lineage and Family identity were less obvious to guys who weren't born and bred into it. There was no "we're with the Gambinos" and someone had to really know the relationships to have insight into that. As much as these outsider "brand names" have hurt the mafia and offered convenience to LE investigations and press coverage, it's made it much easier for low-level guys to figure where they fit in.

It isn't always easy today though as I heard a story from someone whose friend was arrested in a big bookmaking bust and until the indictment and newspaper articles didn't know he was an associate of that specific Family. He worked for a bigger associate who had a more direct relationship to the Family in question but they operated in an area outside of the Family's typical area and he just hadn't been told more and there was no reason for him to know anything except that he ran a sports book for a guy who was relatively more important than him.

[CabriniGreen]

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

Let me add something here, if you’re a big earner and you’re on record with say a member of the Lucchese family and that member dies you are 100% considered property of the Lucchese family and you will be reassigned to another Lucchese member. You don’t become a free agent again, you’re stuck with them unless they decide to release you or trade you.

Is this not a contradiction then?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Sonny, what makes you use retarded mafia shorthand like "Binos"? Like, what compels you to do that?

I'm genuinely interested in the psychology of it.

Because it annoys you.

Rule on shorthand I missed. Oh right, It makes me look cool.

Compel, retarded? Dude. We 15 now?

[SonnyBlackstein]

Unless you can elaborate this further, you're saying that an "advantage" to being on-record with the Genovese family over the Colombo family is, in particular, the respect, connections, rackets, manpower, presence that the larger family could ostensibly offer someone. I responded to each of those points explaining why that's not quite accurate.

Thats not accurate?

So being a member of the Westside gives you a zero greater network than the Colombo's? Dude. Really? Once Again "respect, connections, rackets, manpower, presence" is greater in some Borghata's than others. 200 buttons = more than 70.

No ones saying when youre on record or made you get ACCESS to rackets. But in terms of connections (see, my quote).... Yeah, youre a made guy with the Westside, your connections are likely more in priority than a random button from another family.

Your presence is more powerful.Your manpower is more powerful. Your rackets are more powerful.


But I guess its equality time and everyones equal.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Some guy puts a claim on you, puts you under his wing, etc and generally that determines the subsequent paths open to you.

This….100%

Who says you agree? If youre extorted thats one thing. But going on record is your choice.

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

And this.

Pennisi couldve gone with Ernie Grillo (you know he cant do nothing for you), gone with Blaise, probably reached out to anyone in Perrones old crew or gone with Joey Dib.

So much for no choice eh. Only Cleveland didnt get in a bid.

[gohnjotti]

Also, one more thing; Associates don't go "on-record" directly with crime families, they go "on-record" with individual made members. Which is a big reason the hypothetical scenario of picking between two families to go "on-record" with, doesn't translate to reality.

Let me add something here, if you’re a big earner and you’re on record with say a member of the Lucchese family and that member dies you are 100% considered property of the Lucchese family and you will be reassigned to another Lucchese member. You don’t become a free agent again, you’re stuck with them unless they decide to release you or trade you.

Is this not a contradiction then?

Not necessarily, although I see your point. If somebody operates a certain racket (whether it be Joker-Poker machines, a union connection, etc.) and he is 'kicking up' or paying tribute as an associate, he is (typically) paying a specific made member rather than the family itself. It's the responsibility of the made member to tell his family about the money, and give a portion of it to his immediate superior.

Perhaps someone else can field specific examples of someone explicitly paying tribute to a "crime family" rather than an individual who then splits a portion of that money to his superior, but I don't know of any examples like that myself. Even labor unions, usually referred to as being under the control of a specific "family", usually only 'kick up' or deal with one person, a small group of people at most. A made member might grant no-show jobs to other made members within his family, but I don't think it's a 'rule of thumb', considering associates get granted no-show jobs too.

Oftentimes, the leader of a crew (i.e. a soldier leading a crew of associates or a captain leading a crew of made members) will be lending large sums of money to their underlings who then lend it further, at higher interest, on the street. If the lender dies, his loansharking book is typically considered property of the crime family he belonged to. That was the case for William Cutolo, and that's why John DeRoss searched Cutolo's widow's home for his loansharking book. This case is not unique to Cutolo. Larry Mazza wrote in his autobiography that Greg Scarpa had a similar arrangement with his crew, and I'm sure others on the forum can recall similar cases.

[gohnjotti]

Unless you can elaborate this further, you're saying that an "advantage" to being on-record with the Genovese family over the Colombo family is, in particular, the respect, connections, rackets, manpower, presence that the larger family could ostensibly offer someone. I responded to each of those points explaining why that's not quite accurate.

Thats not accurate?

Well, did you read my response?

So being a member of the Westside gives you a zero greater network than the Colombo's? Dude. Really? Once Again "respect, connections, rackets, manpower, presence" is greater in some Borghata's than others. 200 buttons = more than 70.

What does the number of buttons have to do with anything? A Genovese can't necessarily call on Genovese 'manpower' for help. They call on their underlings, their close associates, maybe their immediate superior. A Genovese doesn't interact with all the other Genoveses on a regular basis. They don't have a group chat, or a bi-annual convention where they swap ideas. To your credit SonnyB, the Bonannos have been holding Christmas parties among their captains - that's an example of a family facilitating greater connections within the family but, as a whole, a crime family is not a big fraternity where everyone knows each other. At least not in today's era. Ralph Scopo Jr. (a Colombo) was a regular attendee at Ciro Perrone's (a Genovese) social club during the 2000s. Jimmy Galione (a Lucchese) hung out with mostly Bonanno members/associates on Bath Ave. during the '90s. There are countless examples. Joey Merlino and the whole Philly-New York LCN connection involved members from Philadelphia and most of New York's Five Families. Nicky Rizzo (a Colombo) was arrested at a Bonanno family Christmas party in 2011. That's why "who you know" is more important than the family itself. When you're "sponsored" into a crime family, you're sponsored by a specific made member. Being "sponsored" by Carmine Russo or Elio Albanese of the Genovese family would not offer you as much connections as, for example, being sponsored by Ernie Aiello of the Bonannos or Teddy Persico of the Colombo family. You might call this a strawman argument because it's positing two extremes, but I think it illustrates the point. (Carmine Russo and Elio Albanese were caught on FBI surveillance selling fireworks on street corners in Manhattan during the '90s, then both arrested in 2022 for selling oxycodone and other pills. Both members of the largest crime family, the Genoveses. Ernie Aiello of the Bonannos is, from what I understand, close to the ruling regime, while Teddy Persico of the Colombos is part of the Colombos' 'royal' family, and both would presumably have a greater access to their respective crime families' union interests and other rackets.).

No ones saying when youre on record or made you get ACCESS to rackets. But in terms of connections (see, my quote).... Yeah, youre a made guy with the Westside, your connections are likely more in priority than a random button from another family.

I genuinely don't understand what you mean when you say one's "connections" are "more in priority" in one family compared to another.

Your presence is more powerful.Your manpower is more powerful. Your rackets are more powerful.

How? Please explain how. Give me some sort of an example or scenario. And again, I'm referring to the modern era of LCN (1980s-today), because we're both discussing these scenarios in the present tense. When you say an individual's "rackets are more powerful" with the Genovese/Gambino over a smaller family, I don't understand how you quantify or measure the "power" of a racket - i.e., a Joker-Poker route, a loansharking book, a union scam - aside from the actual dollar amount that the 'racket' is generating. If a 'racket' defines anything illegitimate that generates income for a crime family, then surely the 'dollar amount' of said racket defines its power? I feel like it's a mind-numbingly minute exercise to argue over such abstract things as the "power" of a racket, or the "presence" and "manpower" of a family, but I genuinely would like to see your point. To your credit SonnyBlackstein, CabriniGreen offered the DeMeo example as evidence that certain associates consider the overall 'strength' of a family when deciding whom to side with.

[chin_gigante]

In the old days it could be even more confusing given the lack of public info. Pre-1960s an associate's perception was that the soldier he was with was under a captain in "Albert's" Family and if he was well-connected and had been around would know Albert succeeded "Don Vincenzino" but things like lineage and Family identity were less obvious to guys who weren't born and bred into it.

Well pointed-out, I think one of the best instances of this is Abe Reles and Happy Maione. Based on Reles's description of their arrangement, I think it's almost certain that the Brownsville and Ocean Hill gangs were 'on record' with Anastasia (or perhaps Louis Capone if he was a member, which again seems very likely), but of course law enforcement and the media didn't have enough insider knowledge to accurately describe this, leading to the 'Murder Inc' myths.