Visiting New Orleans

[PolackTony]

Interesting report with all this in mind:



- From April 1968, before they announced to NYC they were making new members.

- Second paragraph about proposed members being as important as made members sheds light on the "suspected members" lists from this era.

Interesting info. Reminds me of the Sicilian usage, “avvicinati”, to describe “associates”. In the Sicilian case, available info suggests that the avvicinati are proposed members who haven’t yet been inducted, at least in many cases. The importance of the avvicinati to a family is suggested by the fact that in most of the families where I’ve seen formal members broken down separately from the avvicinati, the latter are fewer in number than the members. In the Sicilian model, it would seem that what we call “associates” are seen as having already “approached” (literally) the inner circle of trust, without having yet been brought fully in. I could see a family that seemed to have been as traditional as NOLA holding proposed associates as akin to avvicinati.

[B.]

If it's accurate it doesn't help us with older guys who were never confirmed as members (I'm more open about some of them), but it does help clarify that being a well-connected associate in NO was a priveleged place to be even before becoming a member. Inductions may have been rare, but in these one Family cities if you had the blessing of the leadership you were in a good position. Like you said, that seems to be how the avvicinati were treated in Sicily and they were distinct from other associates. The same thing applied in NYC but the sheer number of associates and proposed members among different Families would reduce their status, like it did membership itself in some cases.

It makes me further question if Joe Marcello was made yet. I lean toward yes but if he was a proposed member and brother of the boss I don't know that someone on the outside would be able to judge the difference A mark against him being a member is that despite extensive travel and contact with other Families, no sources ID'd him as a member like they did other well-traveled members like Carollo and Gagliano. I can understand an older or more local NO member going unidentified but Joe Marcello was heavily exposing himself.

Stood out too that the source still used "capo" for boss. Not that common around the country by 1968. If the source was from NO indicates they still used the older term. I know it was still used in SF and Pittsburgh but really doesn't surface much in the US post-1950s.

[Angelo Santino]

Working chart-

Boss: Carlos Marcello
Suspected Member/Underboss: Joseph Marcello
Suspected Member/Consigliere: Vincenzo "Jimmy" Campo

Members (Confirmed):
Sam Tuminello

*Include information from Joe Colombo

Suspected Members:
Frances Paolo Coppola
Anthony S. Corallo
Frank Gagliano
Giuseppe Gagliano

These guys as well as the FBN list-


If any names should be moved to Confirmed, I'm all ears. For instance, is France Paolo Coppola Frankie Fingers? Spent time in Detroit and St Louis? If so, he's amico nos and can be moved to confirmed.

[Angelo Santino]

I was careful to qualify "shelved" with words such as "de facto." In other words, not officially shelved, but effectively. In Chicago the EP crew was allegedly "shut down," but the members of that crew weren't shelved. They were either on their own or could affiliate with another crew, or be direct to whoever's running the show. To reiterate, I was using the word figuratively, not literally.

I fully understand. However, I would take an extreme conservative approach with the word "Shelved." Shelved equates to being expelled from the society, unable to engage in within the network. Someone losing the office of Capodecina and being just a member cannot be compared to being Shelved. This capodecina, whether he owned a restaurant and/or had a bookmaking operation, would likely keep what is his, the biggest difference is that he's no longer representing the members of the decina he is in. In many ways it is probably easier, he can focus on his own affairs without having to act as a union rep. But going into what you said about defacto vs dejure, I could see a captain who loved his position being replaced by the new boss who didn't like him as describing his predicament as being shelved, but that is comparable to an employee saying "he killed me" when describing some situation at work, it's not literal but descriptive.

I wouldn't feel calling LaGaipa a confirmed member either. For me he's a suspected member, likely member, probably member, or even possible member.

I'm with you.

The earlier back we go, the less confirmation we have on who were actual members. If we took a hardline approach to NY in 1900-1920 we'd likely only be able to identify 30 made members, most of them bosses. I get around it by using the term affiliate, it allows me to pin a name to a group without going into the specifics. But when it comes to 1963, I want to present these as a "here's what's known." With Nola, I can list the 30-40 names total, no problem with me, I just want to be very clear who we can confirm as members and those who are suspected. We can list the Joe Colombo excerpt and if there's another document that disagrees with that, list that too.

[B.]

Here is what 1963 looks like to me, feel free to correct. Heritage is listed on the right, some might have been born in US.

Boss - Carlos Marcello 1910-1993 - Ravanusa, Agrigento (via Tunis)
Former Boss - Leoluca Trombatore 1888-1963 - Corleone, Palermo

Confirmed Members:
Anthony Carollo 1923-2007 (Bompensiero believed him to be underboss by 1966) - Terrasini, Palermo
Frank Gagliano 1930-2006 - Porto Empedocle, Agrigento
Salvatore Tumminello 1896-1991? - Cefalu, Palermo

Possible Members / Proposed Members / Key Associates:
Vincenzo Campo 1905-1972 (suspected consigliere later in 1960s) - Siculiana, Agrigento
Joseph Marcello 1924-1999 - Ravanusa, Agrigento (via Tunis)
Mario "Paul Scarcelli" Presta 1899-1968 - Serra Pedace, Calabria?
+ other living names from the FBN and MF lists

Deported Members:
Salvatore Alongi* 1886-1968 (ID'd by FBI source as former underboss) - Sutera, Caltanissetta
Silvestro Carollo 1896-1972 (former boss) - Terrasini, Palermo
Giuseppe Gagliano 1903-1978 (former underboss, moved to NYC) - Porto Empedocle, Agrigento
Francesco Coppola 1899-1982 - Partinico, Palermo
+ Any others?
+ Also did any of them return to live in New Orleans by 1963?

*Alongi was uncle of Genovese leader Dominick Alongi who attended LaStella with NO leaders.

---

As nice as it would be to list some people like Campo etc. as confirmed it's good info on its own that this group was as secretive as they were and neither LE or other Families had a lot of definitive info. The 1985 FBI list only has three confirmed members.

[Angelo Santino]

Stood out too that the source still used "capo" for boss. Not that common around the country by 1968. If the source was from NO indicates they still used the older term. I know it was still used in SF and Pittsburgh but really doesn't surface much in the US post-1950s.

You've made the point several times that in the Families of Tampa, DeCav and Nola that the most well-known member was the Boss while others were more obscure. This idea of "secretive" is the opposite type of what many would equate with such as the Genovese or Chicago administrations remaining obscure. I would argue that the cities where the boss is most known confirms the avugad system: the boss/capo is representing the network in their area, they are not criminal masterminds overseeing an extensive and active criminal cartel with soldiers scratching and scraping to kick up to gang lieutenants who then hand over envelopes to The Boss. In fact it seems kinda like the opposite, the boss or representative is responsible to its members, helping them obtain work, finding an older member a dentist, acting as an arbitrator, legal or financial assistance. It had its perks but it also had its fair share of headaches. These small Families really were more like exclusive golfing clubs if you swap out golfing with an oath to ignore mainstream societal laws up to the point of murder and an acceptance of what society considers criminal behavior. I don't see much evidence for superiors supporting their lifestyles off of the backs of grunt made men. They appear to have been independently wealthy and likely charismatic/politically savvy to be elected as Boss/Capo/Rappresentante/Avugad/The Man.

What we DON'T see is Carlos Marcello trying to implement a "New York System" which entails a large quantity of members and the strong adherence to regular members "touching base" with their capodecina nor any attempt to "take over" all aspects of organized crime in New Orleans. The recruiting pool was open if Marcello was inclined to attempt it but he didn't. It doesn't seem part of the agenda or an internal function of a family.

[Angelo Santino]

Here is what 1963 looks like to me, feel free to correct. Heritage is listed on the right, some might have been born in US.

Boss - Carlos Marcello 1910-1993 - Ravanusa, Agrigento (via Tunis)
Former Boss - Leoluca Trombatore 1888-1963 - Corleone, Palermo

Confirmed Members:
Anthony Carollo 1923-2007 (Bompensiero believed him to be underboss by 1966) - Terrasini, Palermo
Frank Gagliano 1930-2006 - Porto Empedocle, Agrigento
Salvatore Tumminello 1896-1991? - Cefalu, Palermo

Possible Members / Proposed Members / Key Associates:
Vincenzo Campo 1905-1972 (suspected consigliere later in 1960s) - Siculiana, Agrigento
Joseph Marcello 1924-1999 - Ravanusa, Agrigento (via Tunis)
Mario "Paul Scarcelli" Presta 1899-1968 - Serra Pedace, Calabria?
+ other living names from the FBN and MF lists

Deported Members:
Salvatore Alongi* 1886-1968 (ID'd by FBI source as former underboss) - Sutera, Caltanissetta
Silvestro Carollo 1896-1972 (former boss) - Terrasini, Palermo
Giuseppe Gagliano 1903-1978 (former underboss, moved to NYC) - Porto Empedocle, Agrigento
Francesco Coppola 1899-1982 - Partinico, Palermo
+ Any others?
+ Also did any of them return to live in New Orleans by 1963?

*Alongi was uncle of Genovese leader Dominick Alongi who attended LaStella with NO leaders.

---

As nice as it would be to list some people like Campo etc. as confirmed it's good info on its own that this group was as secretive as they were and neither LE or other Families had a lot of definitive info. The 1985 FBI list only has three confirmed members.

I think this works. It sticks to the facts and includes everything. Any disagreements from anyone?

[motorfab]

I know Coppola lived in New Orleans for a while (in the 1940s I believe), but I'm not sure he transferred to the borgata. In any case, I haven't seen anything that lists him as an official member.

I was re-reading a report these days, source says Joe Marcello & Mario Presta were in Apalachin. Presta's FBN sheet also says so, so there's still a good chance they're more than possible members.

In addition, a list from 1963 and one from 1967 (see page 1) indicate that Vincent & Sam Marcello + Rosario & Frank Occhipinti are members.

And as Antiliar said, a guy like Onofrio Pecoraro smells like a mafioso from miles away and he died in 1984.

I respect the fact of being precocious on the membership, but you still have to recognize that this stuff of "over there the southern hicks they are only 5", it just looks like Greg Scarpa who wants to play smart in front of the feds ...

EDIT : I guess that includes me in the disagreements ?

[Angelo Santino]

I know Coppola lived in New Orleans for a while (in the 1940s I believe), but I'm not sure he transferred to the borgata. In any case, I haven't seen anything that lists him as an official member.

I was re-reading a report these days, source says Joe Marcello & Mario Presta were in Apalachin. Presta's FBN sheet also says so, so there's still a good chance they're more than possible members.

In addition, a list from 1963 and one from 1967 (see page 1) indicate that Vincent & Sam Marcello + Rosario & Frank Occhipinti are members.

And as Antiliar said, a guy like Onofrio Pecoraro smells like a mafioso from miles away and he died in 1984.

I respect the fact of being precocious on the membership, but you still have to recognize that this stuff of "over there the southern hicks they are only 5", it just looks like Greg Scarpa who wants to play smart in front of the feds ...

EDIT : I guess that includes me in the disagreements ?

It's appreciated. You've looked at this group and I'm not trying to be a Johnny Come Lately.

When it comes to Colombo, I didn't get the impression that he discounted Nola as hicks, but I am open to the possibility that perhaps Scarpa was busy that day and Colombo said something to the effect of Nola having a declined membership and Scarpa replayed that as "having like two soldiers" and the FBI wrote it down as "two soldiers." There's always the word-in-the-ear-whispher game component to this stuff.

Thank you.

[B.]

Sam Marcello and the Occhipintis should def be on the possible member / key associate section, but the 1963 list just says the FBI received info that those guys were under Marcello's leadership which doesn't really tell us if they were made. Hard to gauge especially with that one CI saying proposed members were basically treated like members and everyone made or not was under Marcello.

There is one list that includes Sam Tumminello as a confirmed member but he's left off another one that otherwise includes the same confirmed names. The source who ID'd him as a member is different from the other two sources so maybe that was a factor. The one who ID'd Marcello, Carollo, and Coppola was Bompensiero. Not sure who ID'd the Gaglianos.



Here's DeCarlo talking about how old school Sicilian they are in October 1961 (Trombatore was still boss). Could interpet the bit about Poretto to mean he was made, though hard to say from this whether he was a member or simply an associate DeCarlo happened to know, especially because he says "Poretto and his kid" but he does bring up Carlos Marcello too. I don't think it's enough to move him to the confirmed category but he would be one of the more likely ones.

Context was talking about making connections to legitimate figures through the Masons. "Frank" is saying New Orleans doesn't allow its people to join the freemasons. We know it was once a rule in Sicily according to Calderone that you couldn't be a freemason, maybe NO had that rule. DeCarlo chalking it up to them being greenhorns plays into that. Also interesting he says "What have they got there?" which would imply they were seen as small time to NYC/NJ.

[motorfab]

You're welcome Chris, and obviously my remark wasn't anything negative against you or anyone here, it's just I always have difficulties with what Scarpa told to the feds (but you already get the idea lol).

Anyway, back to the initial topic, yes I also think Poretto is a strong candidate for membership.

[Angelo Santino]

You're welcome Chris, and obviously my remark wasn't anything negative against you or anyone here, it's just I always have difficulties with what Scarpa told to the feds (but you already get the idea lol).

Anyway, back to the initial topic, yes I also think Poretto is a strong candidate for membership.

Not at all. I learn more when we disagree with each other and challenge beliefs rather than agree all the time. I think it's healthy for all of us to have our perceived notions or facts challenged. The inspiration for doing these charts came from a disagreement Pogo and I had, I didn't set out to prove him wrong (and didn't) but from me asking what the info and stats were. They don't exist so I have to do the research myself and I've learned quite a bit.

[B.]

It would be cool in my opinion if we could disprove Scarpa's info with confirmed members. I want to defend his info because it's rare insight into the NO Family from a high-level source and we don't have anything solid to compare it to, but if it turns out he's wrong then we all learn something.

I brought up margin of error earlier because I see it more in those terms. On one hand we don't have concrete evidence there were more than 5 members in 1968, but if it turned out they had 7 or 8 that would still be close enough to redeem Scarpa's basic info that the Family was down to its bones and needed members. Maybe others feel that would impeach his credibility but to me being off by a couple members would be a pretty minor mistake, if we can actually prove it. I was asking about that too because it's good to know if we're arguing about a discrepancy of a few names or if it's the entire list of 28 suspected members Pogo referred to.

We all seem to agree there's no need to try and label anyone a captain haha. From the FBI logs of his meetings and activities Marcello seemed to be directing most of the members and associates himself.

[Angelo Santino]

It would be cool in my opinion if we could disprove Scarpa's info with confirmed members. I want to defend his info because it's rare insight into the NO Family from a high-level source and we don't have anything solid to compare it to, but if it turns out he's wrong then we all learn something.

I brought up margin of error earlier because I see it more in those terms. On one hand we don't have concrete evidence there were more than 5 members in 1968, but if it turned out they had 7 or 8 that would still be close enough to redeem Scarpa's basic info that the Family was down to its bones and needed members. Maybe others feel that would impeach his credibility but to me being off by a couple members would be a pretty minor mistake, if we can actually prove it. I was asking about that too because it's good to know if we're arguing about a discrepancy of a few names or if it's the entire list of 28 suspect members Pogo referred to.

We all seem to agree there's no need to try and label anyone a captain haha. From the FBI logs of his meetings and actvities Marcello seemed to be directing most of the members and associates himself.

Which points to a lower membership. When these groups were formed I highly doubt the founder looked around and concluded he'd only have a mafia organization with a B, U, C and at least one capo. When each city formed early on, the 4th member wasn't a capo and 5th a soldier. These ranks serve a purpose and with 10 members, you don't need to compartmentalize things as much as a 40-300 membership family.

[B.]

For comparison, by late 1959 Dallas only had three confirmed members. Civello told an informant he and his brother-in-law were the only ones left (third guy was in his 80s) and the Commission denied their request to make new people. They were able to induct new people at some point in the 1960s and it may have been the first induction since the 1920s. Civello listed off the members of the Family circa 1920s to the informant and it was only ten. Don't know if that was everyone but they don't seem to have been much bigger.