That was during his initial cooperation and based on general estimates. As I mentioned above, when he was told information from other sources, like Joe Colombo, his information tended to be more accurate. The above information was him being asked by the FBI to give estimates during his initial cooperation, not him passing along information he was told by a reliable source (a Commission member)
Interestingly, while he got the DeCavalcante boss's name wrong (which might have been told to him wrong, to his credit), his membership number for them closely matches Sam DeCavalcante's own membership numbers he mentioned on tape. Like with the Joe Colombo situation, it appears he was told the DeCavalcante membership size and his info was accurate. He wasn't just estimating the DeCavalcantes' size blindly, but as with the Colombo info, he was repeating info he was specifically told.
So it's important to make a distinction between his wildly inaccurate estimates that came off the top of his head, opposed to the membership numbers given to him by Joe Colombo and other firsthand sources. We can see the difference in his estimate for the Profaci family, which was the ridiculous 400 member estimate, opposed to what Joe Colombo later told him when he took over: 114 members, which fits perfectly with other reliable info on them during this period.
New Orleans.
Moderator: Capos
Re: New Orleans.
Last edited by B. on Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Angelo Santino
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Re: New Orleans.
Any era of NO is up for discussion. This is a group we know quite little on compared to the east coast. DiLeonardo speculated they were likely all mostly related. We have Cavita here who believes he may have been related to several NOLA members. And I'm also enjoying the 60's discussion between you and Pogo. This is a new area to me, you guys are contributing to my knowledge. I don't have an opinion on the 1960's so I'm enjoying the debate.
Me, myself, I got nothing to really contribute except for who really ran the manure rackets. In 1909, Vincenzo Moreci was written to Morello from NY as a boss, members as per the letter were
Vincenzo Antinoro
Giovanni Gulotta
FNU
Constantino
Trombone
Zito,
Piro,
Sunsseri,
Benanti
Vito Di Giorgi.
Also Morello said this: "In regard to being able to reorganize the family, for me I advise you all to do it because it seems it is not just to stay without a king nor country, but I authorize you to convey to all my humble prayer and my weak opinion, but well understood, that those that are worthy and those that wish to belong, those that do not wish to belong let them go."
--
Vito Di Giorgio went to LA, Antiliar wrote an article on him.
Sunseri is a name I see in Pennslyvania
Trombone could be a mispelling for the other T-name.
Benanti, I seen that name in NY.
With the exception of Di Giorgio, the other surnames in other areas would need to be confirmed.
Me, myself, I got nothing to really contribute except for who really ran the manure rackets. In 1909, Vincenzo Moreci was written to Morello from NY as a boss, members as per the letter were
Vincenzo Antinoro
Giovanni Gulotta
FNU
Constantino
Trombone
Zito,
Piro,
Sunsseri,
Benanti
Vito Di Giorgi.
Also Morello said this: "In regard to being able to reorganize the family, for me I advise you all to do it because it seems it is not just to stay without a king nor country, but I authorize you to convey to all my humble prayer and my weak opinion, but well understood, that those that are worthy and those that wish to belong, those that do not wish to belong let them go."
--
Vito Di Giorgio went to LA, Antiliar wrote an article on him.
Sunseri is a name I see in Pennslyvania
Trombone could be a mispelling for the other T-name.
Benanti, I seen that name in NY.
With the exception of Di Giorgio, the other surnames in other areas would need to be confirmed.
Re: New Orleans.
I have seen the Sunseri/Sunzeri name in the San Giuseppe Iato records quite often and we all know that SGI was a Mafia stronghold.Chris Christie wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 3:52 pm Any era of NO is up for discussion. This is a group we know quite little on compared to the east coast. DiLeonardo speculated they were likely all mostly related. We have Cavita here who believes he may have been related to several NOLA members. And I'm also enjoying the 60's discussion between you and Pogo. This is a new area to me, you guys are contributing to my knowledge. I don't have an opinion on the 1960's so I'm enjoying the debate.
Me, myself, I got nothing to really contribute except for who really ran the manure rackets. In 1909, Vincenzo Moreci was written to Morello from NY as a boss, members as per the letter were
Vincenzo Antinoro
Giovanni Gulotta
FNU
Constantino
Trombone
Zito,
Piro,
Sunsseri,
Benanti
Vito Di Giorgi.
Also Morello said this: "In regard to being able to reorganize the family, for me I advise you all to do it because it seems it is not just to stay without a king nor country, but I authorize you to convey to all my humble prayer and my weak opinion, but well understood, that those that are worthy and those that wish to belong, those that do not wish to belong let them go."
--
Vito Di Giorgio went to LA, Antiliar wrote an article on him.
Sunseri is a name I see in Pennslyvania
Trombone could be a mispelling for the other T-name.
Benanti, I seen that name in NY.
With the exception of Di Giorgio, the other surnames in other areas would need to be confirmed.
Re: New Orleans.
We can look at Scarpa's info the same way the FBI looks at their own intel:
Suspected = Estimation
- Scarpa's blind estimates for family sizes were inaccurate. The FBI's suspected member lists are similarly prone to inaccuracy.
Confirmed = Told Explicitly
When Scarpa was told the size of the DeCavalcante and Colombo families by other members, his numbers tended to be more accurate.
- Scarpa was told by Joe Colombo that the New Orleans family had five remaining members and was on the verge of dying out, which falls in the latter category and tends to be more accurate. Is it an absolute fact that can't be contested? No way, and I'm glad you are offering pushback because it tightens up the discussion and forces us to really look at the evidence.
--
Let's also look at something else Joe Colombo told Scarpa about New Orleans:
- New Orleans was the first mafia family in the US and as a result did not have to report to the Commission, but informed them of the desire to induct new members out of respect.
The evidence is strong for this. New Orleans was the port city for Sicilian immigrants and it is the location of the first widely publicized mafia activity in the US. Bill Bonanno said the same, which he may have heard from his father, another Commission member like Colombo.
- But we have Al D'Arco, an acting boss of an NYC family, saying New Jersey had the first family. Anthony Rotondo made similar statements in his testimony, and Charlie Stango's rambling phone call is along these lines.
- As for not reporting to the Commission, it is hard to dispute this and we don't have any known examples of the Commission forcing their hand on the New Orleans family or presiding over issues in New Orleans like we have for other families. Not much reason to challenge this.
Where do we go from there? Do three later member sources (all captains or higher) outweigh one earlier member source (a boss / Commission member)? Maybe, but we also have to look at the hierarchy of sources:
- Colombo was a Commission member in the 1960s who was arrested with the New Orleans leadership two years before he made his statement to Scarpa. A Commission member who knew Carlos Marcello personally has weight, especially because his account is backed up by other accounts of early New Orleans mafia acitivity.
- Scarpa, who reported Colombo's info, was a confidant of Colombo and reported directly to him. Colombo met constantly with Scarpa and discussed organizational matters with him.
- Al D'Arco was made in the 1980s, apparently had no contact with New Orleans members, and was recalling his info on NJ as a senior citizen during a book interview years after he was on the street.
- Anthony Rotondo and Stango are New Jersey captains, but may have been biased toward their own group's history. It's possible that the small NJ family inflated its own importance by attaching itself to a mafia origin myth, who knows.
Does that mean we throw out D'Arco, Rotondo, and Stango's statements? No way. They are still part of the conversation. If those guys were random associates, I'd probably toss the info aside. We can't do that, though, so we can include them in the discussion and maybe try to understand it:
- Maybe NJ was somehow the first mafia family in the NYC/NJ area, the NJ family split off from the first NYC family, or the NJ family was started by members who first lived in New Orleans. Given that NJ has ties to both Corleone and Agrigento and NO was the port city where the first members likely came from, including Corleonesi and Agrigentini, maybe the first NJ mafia figures either came via New Orleans or had been members there first and this was misinterpreted over the generations.
- Maybe a rural colony in NJ was established around the same time as New Orleans and was simply overshadowed given its small size and lack of attention. Probably not, but one possibility.
When we're talking about the origins of the US mafia, we should heavily emphasize New Orleans but say that there is some kind of origin story repeated about NJ among some high-ranking NYC/NJ members. It has to be a conversation. Like most mafia history, the biggest mistake we can make is to try to say that something is an absolute fact when we don't have definitive evidence.
--
Back to New Orleans circa 1968.
This might be the best way to sum it up right now:
- The New Orleans family had as few as five remaining members in 1968 and wanted to induct more to avoid dying out. The FBI suspected they had more members, but did not have qualified sources to confirm it at this time.
Maybe New Orleans had six members. Seven members. Thirty-three members. We can't say for certain given we don't have a Scarpa inside of the New Orleans family in 1968 who was told by Marcello that he had done a member census and the family totaled five or thirty-three. The real Scarpa did hear from Joe Colombo that the New Orleans family had as few as five members, though.
Scarpa's info via Joe Colombo is filled with highly-specific info on New Orleans that came following a confirmed meeting between Colombo and Carlos Marcello. Colombo was a Commission member holding a formal Christmas party with his captains and top members where he discussed changes in the Gambino family administration, changes in organizational policy, and other details about formal mafia matters, including the state of the New Orleans family, their historical significance, and their need to induct new members to avoid dying out. He stated the age of the youngest member and the size of their organization.
In the hierarchy of sources, I place info Scarpa received from Joe Colombo extremely high. With a margin of error, but still high. It would be great if we could find another source that is as high in the hierarchy of sources when it comes to New Orleans circa 1960s.
Suspected = Estimation
- Scarpa's blind estimates for family sizes were inaccurate. The FBI's suspected member lists are similarly prone to inaccuracy.
Confirmed = Told Explicitly
When Scarpa was told the size of the DeCavalcante and Colombo families by other members, his numbers tended to be more accurate.
- Scarpa was told by Joe Colombo that the New Orleans family had five remaining members and was on the verge of dying out, which falls in the latter category and tends to be more accurate. Is it an absolute fact that can't be contested? No way, and I'm glad you are offering pushback because it tightens up the discussion and forces us to really look at the evidence.
--
Let's also look at something else Joe Colombo told Scarpa about New Orleans:
- New Orleans was the first mafia family in the US and as a result did not have to report to the Commission, but informed them of the desire to induct new members out of respect.
The evidence is strong for this. New Orleans was the port city for Sicilian immigrants and it is the location of the first widely publicized mafia activity in the US. Bill Bonanno said the same, which he may have heard from his father, another Commission member like Colombo.
- But we have Al D'Arco, an acting boss of an NYC family, saying New Jersey had the first family. Anthony Rotondo made similar statements in his testimony, and Charlie Stango's rambling phone call is along these lines.
- As for not reporting to the Commission, it is hard to dispute this and we don't have any known examples of the Commission forcing their hand on the New Orleans family or presiding over issues in New Orleans like we have for other families. Not much reason to challenge this.
Where do we go from there? Do three later member sources (all captains or higher) outweigh one earlier member source (a boss / Commission member)? Maybe, but we also have to look at the hierarchy of sources:
- Colombo was a Commission member in the 1960s who was arrested with the New Orleans leadership two years before he made his statement to Scarpa. A Commission member who knew Carlos Marcello personally has weight, especially because his account is backed up by other accounts of early New Orleans mafia acitivity.
- Scarpa, who reported Colombo's info, was a confidant of Colombo and reported directly to him. Colombo met constantly with Scarpa and discussed organizational matters with him.
- Al D'Arco was made in the 1980s, apparently had no contact with New Orleans members, and was recalling his info on NJ as a senior citizen during a book interview years after he was on the street.
- Anthony Rotondo and Stango are New Jersey captains, but may have been biased toward their own group's history. It's possible that the small NJ family inflated its own importance by attaching itself to a mafia origin myth, who knows.
Does that mean we throw out D'Arco, Rotondo, and Stango's statements? No way. They are still part of the conversation. If those guys were random associates, I'd probably toss the info aside. We can't do that, though, so we can include them in the discussion and maybe try to understand it:
- Maybe NJ was somehow the first mafia family in the NYC/NJ area, the NJ family split off from the first NYC family, or the NJ family was started by members who first lived in New Orleans. Given that NJ has ties to both Corleone and Agrigento and NO was the port city where the first members likely came from, including Corleonesi and Agrigentini, maybe the first NJ mafia figures either came via New Orleans or had been members there first and this was misinterpreted over the generations.
- Maybe a rural colony in NJ was established around the same time as New Orleans and was simply overshadowed given its small size and lack of attention. Probably not, but one possibility.
When we're talking about the origins of the US mafia, we should heavily emphasize New Orleans but say that there is some kind of origin story repeated about NJ among some high-ranking NYC/NJ members. It has to be a conversation. Like most mafia history, the biggest mistake we can make is to try to say that something is an absolute fact when we don't have definitive evidence.
--
Back to New Orleans circa 1968.
This might be the best way to sum it up right now:
- The New Orleans family had as few as five remaining members in 1968 and wanted to induct more to avoid dying out. The FBI suspected they had more members, but did not have qualified sources to confirm it at this time.
Maybe New Orleans had six members. Seven members. Thirty-three members. We can't say for certain given we don't have a Scarpa inside of the New Orleans family in 1968 who was told by Marcello that he had done a member census and the family totaled five or thirty-three. The real Scarpa did hear from Joe Colombo that the New Orleans family had as few as five members, though.
Scarpa's info via Joe Colombo is filled with highly-specific info on New Orleans that came following a confirmed meeting between Colombo and Carlos Marcello. Colombo was a Commission member holding a formal Christmas party with his captains and top members where he discussed changes in the Gambino family administration, changes in organizational policy, and other details about formal mafia matters, including the state of the New Orleans family, their historical significance, and their need to induct new members to avoid dying out. He stated the age of the youngest member and the size of their organization.
In the hierarchy of sources, I place info Scarpa received from Joe Colombo extremely high. With a margin of error, but still high. It would be great if we could find another source that is as high in the hierarchy of sources when it comes to New Orleans circa 1960s.
Re: New Orleans.
Folks, what we also have to remember is that the LCN guys left no written record but passed along stories, info, etc. orally through the years. We all know that when we tell a story to one person and they in turn tell someone and so forth, pretty soon ten people later, you get a somewhat true but convoluted story. And that's just in a short time span.
Re: New Orleans.
Absolutely. It's rare when we can trace the grapevine which makes possibility of mistakes exponential. Fortunately we have a good look into the grapevine for the Scarpa info on NO:
- Scarpa said Colombo produced notes from his pocket before he began his formal speech at the Christmas Party.
- During this speech, produced from notes, he discussed the info about New Orleans membership and history.
- Colombo was a Commission member who had met personally with Carlos Marcello at least once prior to this.
- Scarpa reported this information to his contact agent as soon as possible after attending the meeting.
That's a pretty direct chain of information that we can potentially trace directly back to the New Orleans family. Colombo's use of notes indicates it was important for him to hit the right beats and share accurate info as he remembered it. Scarpa also attended meetings knowing he would have to recount the info back to the FBI, so he would have been paying closer attention than a member who didn't have another motivation. Still, details could have been mixed up in the chain of communication but we at least know how the info traveled and that it was documented ASAP after Scarpa heard it.
With Al D'Arco and the NJ sources, we have little to no idea what the chain of communication was in that grapevine.
- I believe D'Arco was told about NJ from his sponsor Joe Schiavo, an old time member but we have no clue who Schiavo heard it from or when he told it to D'Arco, but it must have been between 1983 and 1987, when D'Arco was inducted and before Schiavo died.
- D'Arco's book was published in 2013, so he was recalling something he was told up to 30 years earlier when he didn't know he was going to be a witness / author recalling a random anecdote that only freaks would analyze.
- We don't know how age and time might have affected D'Arco's memory recalling a random story he was told.
With the NJ guys I have no clue where to begin. If you asked Stango what the grapevine is, he'd tell you it was what the Elizabeth family was before the Gambinos took them over.
- Scarpa said Colombo produced notes from his pocket before he began his formal speech at the Christmas Party.
- During this speech, produced from notes, he discussed the info about New Orleans membership and history.
- Colombo was a Commission member who had met personally with Carlos Marcello at least once prior to this.
- Scarpa reported this information to his contact agent as soon as possible after attending the meeting.
That's a pretty direct chain of information that we can potentially trace directly back to the New Orleans family. Colombo's use of notes indicates it was important for him to hit the right beats and share accurate info as he remembered it. Scarpa also attended meetings knowing he would have to recount the info back to the FBI, so he would have been paying closer attention than a member who didn't have another motivation. Still, details could have been mixed up in the chain of communication but we at least know how the info traveled and that it was documented ASAP after Scarpa heard it.
With Al D'Arco and the NJ sources, we have little to no idea what the chain of communication was in that grapevine.
- I believe D'Arco was told about NJ from his sponsor Joe Schiavo, an old time member but we have no clue who Schiavo heard it from or when he told it to D'Arco, but it must have been between 1983 and 1987, when D'Arco was inducted and before Schiavo died.
- D'Arco's book was published in 2013, so he was recalling something he was told up to 30 years earlier when he didn't know he was going to be a witness / author recalling a random anecdote that only freaks would analyze.
- We don't know how age and time might have affected D'Arco's memory recalling a random story he was told.
With the NJ guys I have no clue where to begin. If you asked Stango what the grapevine is, he'd tell you it was what the Elizabeth family was before the Gambinos took them over.
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Pogo The Clown
- Men Of Mayhem
- Posts: 14158
- Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:02 am
Re: New Orleans.
Sorry I don't. It was from MF and I just copied down the info. I do have in my notes that it was on page 217 but from what batch of documents I have no idea.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Re: New Orleans.
Thanks, man.Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:32 pm
Sorry I don't. It was from MF and I just copied down the info. I do have in my notes that it was on page 217 but from what batch of documents I have no idea.
Pogo
This is on page 217 of an MF file containing a report from the New Orleans FBI office in August 1968:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... PageId=217
It has the same handful of confirmed members posted by Nash and the rest are suspected members. So as of August 1968, the FBI hadn't received confirmation that those were made members.
They did make some lists ~1963 that included eight men that they believed "logically could be considered members", but that statement and other details show that this was based only on activities and association with the Marcellos, not any direct evidence of membership.
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: New Orleans.
Hmmm maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I believe it was a different report that I saw. The one I saw listed Joe Marcello and Campo as UnderBoss and Consigliere. And I'm sure I would have included the "suspected" category as well as I did in this 1972 chart that I also have in my files.
Here is the 1972 chart which includes 35 names. It is basically the same as the 1968 list. I put an (N) next to the names that weren't on the 1968 list.
Administration:
Boss: Carlos Marcello
UnderBoss: Joseph Marcello
Consigliere: Vincenzo “Jimmy” Campo (D/1972)
Members:
Anthony Carollla
Francesco Paolo Coppola (Italy)
Frank “Fat Frank” Gagliano
Giuseppe Gaglaino (Former UnderBoss)
Antonio “Anthony” Pansi (D/1972)
Sam Tumminello (N)
Suspected Members:
Chris Albano
Anthony Barlotta
Salvador Anthony Boemia
Frank Caracci
Joseph Chimento
Angelo Conforto
Jerome Conforto
James L. Culotta
Samuel Domino
Leonard Franzone (N)
Nino LoScalzo (N)
Peter Marcello
Salvatore “Sammy” Marcello
Vincent “Vinny” Marcello
Anthony P. Marullo (N)
Joseph Anthony Matassa
Carlo Montalbano
Frank Occhipinti
Rosario Frank Occhipinti
Onorfio “Norfio” Pecora
Joseph Albert Poretto
Joseph Robert Provenzano (N)
Philip “Phil” Rizzuto
Victor Emile Saladino
Frank Vincent Timphony
Frank Vuci
Pogo
Here is the 1972 chart which includes 35 names. It is basically the same as the 1968 list. I put an (N) next to the names that weren't on the 1968 list.
Administration:
Boss: Carlos Marcello
UnderBoss: Joseph Marcello
Consigliere: Vincenzo “Jimmy” Campo (D/1972)
Members:
Anthony Carollla
Francesco Paolo Coppola (Italy)
Frank “Fat Frank” Gagliano
Giuseppe Gaglaino (Former UnderBoss)
Antonio “Anthony” Pansi (D/1972)
Sam Tumminello (N)
Suspected Members:
Chris Albano
Anthony Barlotta
Salvador Anthony Boemia
Frank Caracci
Joseph Chimento
Angelo Conforto
Jerome Conforto
James L. Culotta
Samuel Domino
Leonard Franzone (N)
Nino LoScalzo (N)
Peter Marcello
Salvatore “Sammy” Marcello
Vincent “Vinny” Marcello
Anthony P. Marullo (N)
Joseph Anthony Matassa
Carlo Montalbano
Frank Occhipinti
Rosario Frank Occhipinti
Onorfio “Norfio” Pecora
Joseph Albert Poretto
Joseph Robert Provenzano (N)
Philip “Phil” Rizzuto
Victor Emile Saladino
Frank Vincent Timphony
Frank Vuci
Pogo
Last edited by Pogo The Clown on Mon Aug 10, 2020 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Re: New Orleans.
Awesome, thank you.
So in 1972 they still hadn't received confirmation for most of the suspected members on the earlier lists. They would have updated it otherwise given they made other additions.
Interesting there are two new names in the confirmed list. By 1972 they might well have had more members given Colombo said they would be inducting them as of late 1968 if they hadn't started already. I wonder who ID'd the new names.
- Anthony Panci's real name was Antonio Messina and he may have been a made member in Palermo. He entered the US illegally after committing a mafia murder in Sicily and there were attempts to deport him in 1967 but I'm not sure if it happened.
- Scott mentioned Nino LoScalzo was the brother of the Tampa member(s) and there were early Provenzanos in the NO mafia. Salvatore Falcone married a Provenzano from NO who I think was related. There would be bloodlines at least for those two which seems to have been important for membership in NO.
Too bad DiLeonardo didn't go to that 2002 meeting. Maybe he would have discovered they had a boss, underboss, and consigliere and zero soldiers by then.
So in 1972 they still hadn't received confirmation for most of the suspected members on the earlier lists. They would have updated it otherwise given they made other additions.
Interesting there are two new names in the confirmed list. By 1972 they might well have had more members given Colombo said they would be inducting them as of late 1968 if they hadn't started already. I wonder who ID'd the new names.
- Anthony Panci's real name was Antonio Messina and he may have been a made member in Palermo. He entered the US illegally after committing a mafia murder in Sicily and there were attempts to deport him in 1967 but I'm not sure if it happened.
- Scott mentioned Nino LoScalzo was the brother of the Tampa member(s) and there were early Provenzanos in the NO mafia. Salvatore Falcone married a Provenzano from NO who I think was related. There would be bloodlines at least for those two which seems to have been important for membership in NO.
Too bad DiLeonardo didn't go to that 2002 meeting. Maybe he would have discovered they had a boss, underboss, and consigliere and zero soldiers by then.
Re: New Orleans.
How was Carlos Marcello so powerful but only had 5 soldiers?
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Grouchy Sinatra
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Re: New Orleans.
Close with Costello, who had plenty of soldiers.
Glick told author Nicholas Pileggi that he expected to meet a banker-type individual, but instead, he found Alvin Baron to be a gruff, tough-talking cigar-chomping Teamster who greeted him with, “What the fuck do you want?”
Re: New Orleans.
Bosses are equal regardless of family size. The major northern cities were an exception as far as pumped up membership numbers go.
When Angelo Bruno returned from his trip to Sicily, he was recorded joking how his cousin Calogero Sinatra, boss of Vallelunga, could be boss, underboss, consigliere, capodecina, and soldier all in one in most Sicilian towns because they were so small. Reminded me of New Orleans allegedly having only a boss, underboss, consigliere, and two soldiers. Based on Bruno's joke, might not have been that rare in Sicily to see tiny families with a full admin. We know small US families like New Orleans remained heavily Sicilian so might not have been as strange to them to keep their numbers low while keeping an admin, like we also saw in Dallas.
When Angelo Bruno returned from his trip to Sicily, he was recorded joking how his cousin Calogero Sinatra, boss of Vallelunga, could be boss, underboss, consigliere, capodecina, and soldier all in one in most Sicilian towns because they were so small. Reminded me of New Orleans allegedly having only a boss, underboss, consigliere, and two soldiers. Based on Bruno's joke, might not have been that rare in Sicily to see tiny families with a full admin. We know small US families like New Orleans remained heavily Sicilian so might not have been as strange to them to keep their numbers low while keeping an admin, like we also saw in Dallas.
Last edited by B. on Mon Aug 10, 2020 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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motorfab
- Full Patched
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Re: New Orleans.
You have also this one if you want. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... 1&tab=pageB. wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:55 pmThanks, man.Pogo The Clown wrote: ↑Mon Aug 10, 2020 5:32 pm
Sorry I don't. It was from MF and I just copied down the info. I do have in my notes that it was on page 217 but from what batch of documents I have no idea.
Pogo
This is on page 217 of an MF file containing a report from the New Orleans FBI office in August 1968:
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.htm ... PageId=217
It has the same handful of confirmed members posted by Nash and the rest are suspected members. So as of August 1968, the FBI hadn't received confirmation that those were made members.
They did make some lists ~1963 that included eight men that they believed "logically could be considered members", but that statement and other details show that this was based only on activities and association with the Marcellos, not any direct evidence of membership.
Re: New Orleans.
Awesome -- thank you for sharing that one.
- It proves that the member source they used to confirm some NO members was Bompensiero. The contact agent they list for that informant was SA John Armstrong, who was a San Diego FBI agent that handled Bompensiero. An unredacted version of that doc shows it was Bompensiero's informant symbol, too.
- The reason the FBI went from identifying one confirmed member pre-1968 (Carlos Marcello) to identifying four confirmed members (including two deported members) is because Bompensiero was cooperating by 1968. Bompensiero was a well-traveled mafia member who was close to Tampa, so his only being able to identify two current NO members shows that little was known about the NO membership -- or as Colombo implies, there was little to know.
- Bompensiero also gave them good info on the La Stella meeting. Along with confirming that the dinner was not the actual meeting, but held afterward, Bompensiero says he believes Anthony Carolla was Marcello's underboss. This is why we can't rely on non-member informants who "suspect" ranks / membership -- we have a non-member who "suspected" that Joseph Marcello was the underboss, while we have Frank Bompensiero suspecting Anthony Carolla was underboss at the same time. The FBI continued to list Marcello as the suspected underboss, so Bompensiero's suspicion must not have been enough for the FBI to list Carolla despite coming from a member.
- The member source who ID'd the Gaglianos as members was an NYC member who was close to Salvatore Granello of the Genovese family and Frank Mari of the Bonannos. He apparently was going to Puerto Rico with Frank Mari. He also appears to have had an interest in the Bonanza in Las Vegas, which Angelo Bruno contacted him about purchasing, and he had ties to Miami. He had been cooperating since 1964 but admitted to the FBI that he was a member by August 1967. I wonder if he we can figure out who this is?
- It proves that the member source they used to confirm some NO members was Bompensiero. The contact agent they list for that informant was SA John Armstrong, who was a San Diego FBI agent that handled Bompensiero. An unredacted version of that doc shows it was Bompensiero's informant symbol, too.
- The reason the FBI went from identifying one confirmed member pre-1968 (Carlos Marcello) to identifying four confirmed members (including two deported members) is because Bompensiero was cooperating by 1968. Bompensiero was a well-traveled mafia member who was close to Tampa, so his only being able to identify two current NO members shows that little was known about the NO membership -- or as Colombo implies, there was little to know.
- Bompensiero also gave them good info on the La Stella meeting. Along with confirming that the dinner was not the actual meeting, but held afterward, Bompensiero says he believes Anthony Carolla was Marcello's underboss. This is why we can't rely on non-member informants who "suspect" ranks / membership -- we have a non-member who "suspected" that Joseph Marcello was the underboss, while we have Frank Bompensiero suspecting Anthony Carolla was underboss at the same time. The FBI continued to list Marcello as the suspected underboss, so Bompensiero's suspicion must not have been enough for the FBI to list Carolla despite coming from a member.
- The member source who ID'd the Gaglianos as members was an NYC member who was close to Salvatore Granello of the Genovese family and Frank Mari of the Bonannos. He apparently was going to Puerto Rico with Frank Mari. He also appears to have had an interest in the Bonanza in Las Vegas, which Angelo Bruno contacted him about purchasing, and he had ties to Miami. He had been cooperating since 1964 but admitted to the FBI that he was a member by August 1967. I wonder if he we can figure out who this is?