Chicago and the Camorra

[PolackTony]

In addition, heres one interesting example regarding Accardos "consigliere" role....same as Ricca, we are again obviously looking at a top boss...

Yes that's a good example. But this is after the shakeup and Accardo stepping forward "out of retirement" in the wake of the crisis of leadership in the late 60s. So at this point he was not no longer a "boss emeritus" but again had assumed the position of actual, active boss. What were Accardo and Ricca's roles and operational, day to day responsibilities and authority in the years following Mooney's appointment as boss?

And it's an actual question that I'm posing -- are there examples of those with advisor or consigliere roles in other families who stepped in and took charge or appointed new bosses during crises of leadership or power vacuums? And to be sure, I'm not posing this question to argue that Ricca and Accardo held an office or position exactly corresponding to a "consigliere" necessarily, but rather to be more fine-tuned in understanding the senior advisor or "boss emeritus" role in Chicago vs. other advisory-type roles or formal positions in other families.

[Villain]

In addition, heres one interesting example regarding Accardos "consigliere" role....same as Ricca, we are again obviously looking at a top boss...

Yes that's a good example. But this is after the shakeup and Accardo stepping forward "out of retirement" in the wake of the crisis of leadership in the late 60s. So at this point he was not no longer a "boss emeritus" but again had assumed the position of actual, active boss. What were Accardo and Ricca's roles and operational, day to day responsibilities and authority in the years following Mooney's appointment as boss?

And it's an actual question that I'm posing -- are there examples of those with advisor or consigliere roles in other families who stepped in and took charge or appointed new bosses during crises of leadership or power vacuums? And to be sure, I'm not posing this question to argue that Ricca and Accardo held an office or position exactly corresponding to a "consigliere" necessarily, but rather to be more fine-tuned in understanding the senior advisor or "boss emeritus" role in Chicago vs. other advisory-type roles or formal positions in other families.

Accardo was the top boss, Alex was the advisor and Aiuppa was the day-to-day chief executive. Also my previous post regarding the top boss and the semi- retired guys explains everything

As for other families....maybe the Genoveses during certain time period...i dunno

[Antiliar]

I think "The Man" and "The Boss" being like a CEO and a president, respectively, is a good description of the top leaders of the Outfit. I'm not sure that "The Man" was an official title or just jargon that some members and associates used. In my opinion, Roemer and other agents used the term "consigliere" for Ricca and Accardo because they didn't know what else to use. It was a square peg in a round hole. What labels are used aren't used consistently. Frank Calabrese Jr called Accardo "the boss" and Aiuppa the underboss, but then what was Cerone? I don't think he was being exact with his words, which is why context matters when we interpret what they say. In Fred Pascente's book he tells us that when he was young he entered a restaurant and was about to greet Accardo, but Accardo told him to greet the boss (Ricca) first. In reports about those July 4th parties it's noted that guests greeted Ricca first there too. Getting back to consigliere, I have to return to what Mike Mags said, that Gus Alex was the consigliere. In my opinion he meant adviser and not consigliere as an official title.

[Villain]

I think "The Man" and "The Boss" being like a CEO and a president, respectively, is a good description of the top leaders of the Outfit. I'm not sure that "The Man" was an official title or just jargon that some members and associates used. In my opinion, Roemer and other agents used the term "consigliere" for Ricca and Accardo because they didn't know what else to use. It was a square peg in a round hole. What labels are used aren't used consistently. Frank Calabrese Jr called Accardo "the boss" and Aiuppa the underboss, but then what was Cerone? I don't think he was being exact with his words, which is why context matters when we interpret what they say. In Fred Pascente's book he tells us that when he was young he entered a restaurant and was about to greet Accardo, but Accardo told him to greet the boss (Ricca) first. In reports about those July 4th parties it's noted that guests greeted Ricca first there too. Getting back to consigliere, I have to return to what Mike Mags said, that Gus Alex was the consigliere. In my opinion he meant adviser and not consigliere as an official title.

Thanks and i agree

[PolackTony]

In what specific ways has the American CN as a whole "resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian mafia"? Sure, Cotello and Genovese were not Sicilians (and Luciano before them was himself far from being a Mustache Pete traditionalist) but in what ways did the formal or functional workings of the Genovese family, for example, reflect Camorra influences over those derived or adapted from the Sicilian Mafia?

Putting business above tradition. Camorra was about business and corruption from the start. They formed in prison. Their origins were literally in organized crime. The Sicilian mafia traditions are based in village feuds. Corruption came later.

The Luciano/Genovese family wrote the book on putting business above tradition, much to the chagrin of the more Sicilian-centric bosses like Bonanno and Profaci. Many among the hard core Sicilian faction didn't even believe non Sicilians should be made.

Just making sure that I'm understanding your argument here correctly. The American Mafia "resembled the Camorra" because the American Mafia was a primarily urban phenomenon and because their primary goal/activity was control of revenue generating rackets as opposed to mediating social conflicts in rural areas? It would seem to me by that same token, the Mafia in Palermo has resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian Mafia, if that's how we're defining these organizations.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Just making sure that I'm understanding your argument here correctly. The American Mafia "resembled the Camorra" because the American Mafia was a primarily urban phenomenon and because their primary goal/activity was control of revenue generating rackets as opposed to mediating social conflicts in rural areas? It would seem to me by that same token, the Mafia in Palermo has resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian Mafia, if that's how we're defining these organizations.

If you want to split hairs about it, sure. Thought it was pretty obvious that I meant the mafia culture in Sicily, in general, as compared to organized crime in Naples.

[PolackTony]

I think "The Man" and "The Boss" being like a CEO and a president, respectively, is a good description of the top leaders of the Outfit. I'm not sure that "The Man" was an official title or just jargon that some members and associates used. In my opinion, Roemer and other agents used the term "consigliere" for Ricca and Accardo because they didn't know what else to use. It was a square peg in a round hole. What labels are used aren't used consistently. Frank Calabrese Jr called Accardo "the boss" and Aiuppa the underboss, but then what was Cerone? I don't think he was being exact with his words, which is why context matters when we interpret what they say. In Fred Pascente's book he tells us that when he was young he entered a restaurant and was about to greet Accardo, but Accardo told him to greet the boss (Ricca) first. In reports about those July 4th parties it's noted that guests greeted Ricca first there too. Getting back to consigliere, I have to return to what Mike Mags said, that Gus Alex was the consigliere. In my opinion he meant adviser and not consigliere as an official title.

Yes, Mikey Mags referring to Alex as a "consigliere" is a great example. The title itself is a misnomer, and the senior advisor role in Chicago was not exactly the same as a consigliere, but it still can be useful to think through some of the similarities and differences that advisory roles played in different families. I still think that terms like boss emeritus or "elder statesman" seem to best capture the place of Accardo or Ricca in the family, regardless of whether at the moment they were exercising direct leadership responsibilities as the official or de facto boss or were operating on a day to day basis as a senior advisor to the person tasked with the primary executive position.

[Villain]

Chicagos top hierarchy

Top boss

Senior Advisor (sometimes two since during one period, besides Accardo, Humphreys held a similar role)

Boss

Underboss

[PolackTony]

Just making sure that I'm understanding your argument here correctly. The American Mafia "resembled the Camorra" because the American Mafia was a primarily urban phenomenon and because their primary goal/activity was control of revenue generating rackets as opposed to mediating social conflicts in rural areas? It would seem to me by that same token, the Mafia in Palermo has resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian Mafia, if that's how we're defining these organizations.

If you want to split hairs about it, sure. Thought it was pretty obvious that I meant the mafia culture in Sicily, in general, as compared to organized crime in Naples.

Not trying to be a dick about it, but a statement like "the American mafia resembled the Camorra" because the "Camorra are about business" is pretty vague. So I thought it might be sensible to lay out my reading of your line of argument and one of its implications (if my reading were indeed fair).

[Grouchy Sinatra]

Not trying to be a dick about it, but a statement like "the American mafia resembled the Camorra" because the "Camorra are about business" is pretty vague. So I thought it might be sensible to lay out my reading of your line of argument and one of its implications (if my reading were indeed fair).

Except that's not what I said. You're cherry picking and not quoting me completely and you're taking my words out of context. I was making a comparison. I said that the Camorra is more about business and less about blood or regional feud than Sicily's mafia clans, and for that reason since the form of the commission the American mafia has resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian mafia. Want to split hairs over that with outlier examples go ahead but that's what I said.

[Confederate]

Getting back to consigliere, I have to return to what Mike Mags said, that Gus Alex was the consigliere. In my opinion he meant adviser and not consigliere as an official title.

This also can apply to Murry Humphreys & Jake Guzik.

[PolackTony]

Not trying to be a dick about it, but a statement like "the American mafia resembled the Camorra" because the "Camorra are about business" is pretty vague. So I thought it might be sensible to lay out my reading of your line of argument and one of its implications (if my reading were indeed fair).

Except that's not what I said. You're cherry picking and not quoting me completely and you're taking my words out of context. I was making a comparison. I said that the Camorra is more about business and less about blood or regional feud than Sicily's mafia clans, and for that reason since the form of the commission the American mafia has resembled the Camorra more than the Sicilian mafia. Want to split hairs over that with outlier examples go ahead but that's what I said.

Again, I'm just trying to understand your argument, which could be fleshed out more clearly. No need to get "grouchy" about it.

Also, how sure are you that your characterization of the Camorra is accurate? And what period are you comparing the Sicilian Mafia to the Camorra? The urban Bella Società Riformata of the 19th century, the rural Camorra groups of the same era in Campania, or the later 20th century Camorra clans in Napoli? If it is the latter, from what I do understand the modern Camorra has had a strong basis of blood ties and has engaged in significant territorial feuding. If it's the Bella Società Riformata, then while blood ties may have been less important but they seem to certainly have had their own set of esoteric ceremonial type traditions that were lost over time by the modern Camorra. If my characterization of these distinct permutations of the "Camorra" is immaculate, I hope to be corrected. The entire point of this thread was originally to draw out specific and well defined areas of potential influence or continuity between 19th and early 20th century Camorra groups and the Chicago Outfit.

[PolackTony]

If my characterization of the "Camorra"'is * innacurate

Phone autocorrect

[Confederate]

Its quite interesting that whenever the Chi boys referred to other families, especially around the east coast, they usually only talked about the boss or the underboss of some specific family, they almost never mentioned any other high level statures but the most interesting thing was that they rarely knew on who was the boss or underboss in other families.

In some previous talks between Accardo and Giancana, the former boss or Joe B describes to Momo the whole commission and who was on it, besides Giancana being the underboss for almost 9 years....it seems that the Outfits top admin rarely cared about who was who in other families, except for their accomplices the Genoveses since Giancana was aware only about Vito and maybe Tommy Brown.

Another example is when Cerone (capo) explained to Ferraro (underboss) about who were the top guys in the Rockford family....i mean they were in their own state and both families were closely connected in numerous ventures, but still it seems that the Outfits top admin didnt care much about it.

And my last and best example is one convo that occurred in 1972 or right before Ricca was hospitalized and later died, that was between him and Accardo during a lunch in some Northwest Side restaurant, possibly on Grand Av. During their lunch, they mostly talked about and were disgusted by the Tommy Eboli murder and they also mentioned the Colombo problem, and by the end of the meeting both oldtimers closed their dialog with Accardo stating "Better them than us," followed by Ricca "You're right, Joe, better them than us." With these last statements, they definitely showed that they really didnt care much about the national organization at the time.

This is another proof that the Chicago Outfit always had their own closed circle and was always different than the rest.

I have never seen one example from all the stuff you have sent me & read (which is volumes) lol, where a Boss from Chicago spoke to a Boss in New York about "Titles" in the Chicago Outfit. Again, to be clear (so nobody gets upset), I have NEVER seen it. So therefore, IMO, New York didn't care what titles or even how the Chicago Outfit was structured. All the Genovese Family cared about was how they were going to make money with Chicago & that Chicago would "vote their way" on the Commission.

[Grouchy Sinatra]

If my characterization of these distinct permutations of the "Camorra" is immaculate, I hope to be corrected.

I would say your characterizations are irrelevant, considering I already accounted for outliers and exceptions. I said at first my argument was in general. But hair split away.