New York's Commission voted for admitting new members in 1976

[HairyKnuckles]

Not related to this topic but...in the file Antiliar posted up, there´s some info on Sonny Franzese´s father Carmine "The Lion". He is described as a former "don".

Franzese.png

I wonder what Family Carmine belonged to. Considering his neigborhood being Williamsburg (home address 346 Leonard Street, Brooklyn), is it possible Carmine was with the Bonanno Family? He must have been made early and wasn´t Sicilian but a mainlander which puts him more likely with the Genovese Family. Has anybody more info on what Family he belonged to?
Another possibility of course, is that Carmine could have been an early camorista and not part of Cosa Nostra at all. Any thoughts on this?

[DPG]

Not related to this topic but...in the file Antiliar posted up, there´s some info on Sonny Franzese´s father Carmine "The Lion". He is described as a former "don".

Franzese.png

I wonder what Family Carmine belonged to. Considering his neigborhood being Williamsburg (home address 346 Leonard Street, Brooklyn), is it possible Carmine was with the Bonanno Family? He must have been made early and wasn´t Sicilian but a mainlander which puts him more likely with the Genovese Family. Has anybody more info on what Family he belonged to?
Another possibility of course, is that Carmine could have been an early camorista and not part of Cosa Nostra at all. Any thoughts on this?

This stood out to me as well.

To be even more off subject....I’d rather read FBI files then a story in a paper any day.

[B.]

Not related to this topic but...in the file Antiliar posted up, there´s some info on Sonny Franzese´s father Carmine "The Lion". He is described as a former "don".

Franzese.png

I wonder what Family Carmine belonged to. Considering his neigborhood being Williamsburg (home address 346 Leonard Street, Brooklyn), is it possible Carmine was with the Bonanno Family? He must have been made early and wasn´t Sicilian but a mainlander which puts him more likely with the Genovese Family. Has anybody more info on what Family he belonged to?
Another possibility of course, is that Carmine could have been an early camorista and not part of Cosa Nostra at all. Any thoughts on this?

The Colombo Long Island / Queens element that included the Franzeses had roots in Williamsburg. The Alois were also from there originally. They followed the same pattern as many Bonannos, moving from Williamsburg to Queens. It does stand out given the limited Colombo presence there.

Carmine Franzese was involved in crime for sure, as evidenced by arrests and newspaper reports, but I've never seen him confirmed as a member though if he was made it was probably with the Colombos like his son, grandsons, and the Alois. Antonio Colombo is another possible early Profaci member of mainland heritage, being Calabrese.

The term "don" is a casual term of respect that could refer to anyone from a neighborhood civilian, to a non-member associate, soldier, etc. Not a mafia term necessarily, though of course it is often used as a sign of respect for certain mafia figures.

[HairyKnuckles]

Not related to this topic but...in the file Antiliar posted up, there´s some info on Sonny Franzese´s father Carmine "The Lion". He is described as a former "don".

Franzese.png

I wonder what Family Carmine belonged to. Considering his neigborhood being Williamsburg (home address 346 Leonard Street, Brooklyn), is it possible Carmine was with the Bonanno Family? He must have been made early and wasn´t Sicilian but a mainlander which puts him more likely with the Genovese Family. Has anybody more info on what Family he belonged to?
Another possibility of course, is that Carmine could have been an early camorista and not part of Cosa Nostra at all. Any thoughts on this?

The Colombo Long Island / Queens element that included the Franzeses had roots in Williamsburg. The Alois were also from there originally. They followed the same pattern as many Bonannos, moving from Williamsburg to Queens. It does stand out given the limited Colombo presence there.

Carmine Franzese was involved in crime for sure, as evidenced by arrests and newspaper reports, but I've never seen him confirmed as a member though if he was made it was probably with the Colombos like his son, grandsons, and the Alois. Antonio Colombo is another possible early Profaci member of mainland heritage, being Calabrese.

The term "don" is a casual term of respect that could refer to anyone from a neighborhood civilian, to a non-member associate, soldier, etc. Not a mafia term necessarily, though of course it is often used as a sign of respect for certain mafia figures.

Thanks. It would make sense that Carmine "The Lion" could have been an early member of the Profaci Family considering his son became part of that Family later on.

Yeah I know about the don term but how it is being described in the snippet above (how it´s worded) in connection to Franzese, implies he was an important figure with the Mafia (or with the Italian criminal underworld) more than anything else.

[gohnjotti]

Not related to this topic but...in the file Antiliar posted up, there´s some info on Sonny Franzese´s father Carmine "The Lion". He is described as a former "don".

Franzese.png

I wonder what Family Carmine belonged to. Considering his neigborhood being Williamsburg (home address 346 Leonard Street, Brooklyn), is it possible Carmine was with the Bonanno Family? He must have been made early and wasn´t Sicilian but a mainlander which puts him more likely with the Genovese Family. Has anybody more info on what Family he belonged to?
Another possibility of course, is that Carmine could have been an early camorista and not part of Cosa Nostra at all. Any thoughts on this?

The Colombo Long Island / Queens element that included the Franzeses had roots in Williamsburg. The Alois were also from there originally. They followed the same pattern as many Bonannos, moving from Williamsburg to Queens. It does stand out given the limited Colombo presence there.

Carmine Franzese was involved in crime for sure, as evidenced by arrests and newspaper reports, but I've never seen him confirmed as a member though if he was made it was probably with the Colombos like his son, grandsons, and the Alois. Antonio Colombo is another possible early Profaci member of mainland heritage, being Calabrese.

The term "don" is a casual term of respect that could refer to anyone from a neighborhood civilian, to a non-member associate, soldier, etc. Not a mafia term necessarily, though of course it is often used as a sign of respect for certain mafia figures.

What I find interesting is that even in Franzese’s final trial, an FBI agent referred to his current-day crew (I.e., the members charged in the investigation during the 2000s), as the Greenpoint crew, despite the crew being almost entirely based out of Long Island.

[B.]

Thanks. It would make sense that Carmine "The Lion" could have been an early member of the Profaci Family considering his son became part of that Family later on.

Yeah I know about the don term but how it is being described in the snippet above (how it´s worded) in connection to Franzese, implies he was an important figure with the Mafia (or with the Italian criminal underworld) more than anything else.

Sorry, didn't mean to try and school you on that! That snippet is a great find.

Sonny's brother (I believe his name was Michael, like Sonny's son) was listed by the NYPD as a member on their infamous photo chart but doesn't appear to have been an actual member. Interesting given his brother, son Carmine, nephew Michael, and possibly father were all members.

What I find interesting is that even in Franzese’s final trial, an FBI agent referred to his current-day crew (I.e., the members charged in the investigation during the 2000s), as the Greenpoint crew, despite the crew being almost entirely based out of Long Island.

Didn't know they used that. Would be very interesting to know how the elder Carmine Franzese got hooked up with the Colombos. Maybe through the Alois, but I have no idea. The Alois were Sicilian at least.

Antonio Colombo we know was married into the Musacchios, so that explains his involvement despite being Calabrese.

[MightyDR]

In an article about Vito Genovese's early days in Informer Magazine, it says Carmine Franzese asked Ferdinand Boccia to attend a meeting with Mike Miranda.

He was also on the visitor's list of Antonio Paretti, "a leading member of a Neapolitan Camorra-type organization based in Coney Island, Brooklyn, and bossed by Pellegrino Morano", while Paretti was locked up. Genovese was on the list too.

[Wiseguy]

Commission functions outlined in the "Commission case":


Promoting and carrying out joint ventures between and among LCN families to obtain money through illegal activities

Resolving actual and potential disputes among LCN families regarding the operation, conduct and control of illegal activities including interference with interstate commerce through extortionate extensions of credit and the collection of debts by extortionate means, commonly referred to as "loansharking," infiltration and control of labor unions and labor organizations, illegal gambling, money laundering, fraud and narcotics trafficking

Sharing information regarding government witnesses and potential or perceived government witnesses

Taking steps to preserve order in, between and among the LCN families, including authorizing acts of murder

Approving or disapproving the initiation of new members or soldiers in LCN families

Controlling relations between LCN and members of the "Sicilian Mafia," an enterprise distinct from LCN in the United States

Establishing certain rules governing the families, officers and members of LCN

Keeping persons inside and outside LCN in fear of LCN by identifying LCN with threats, violence and murder

Extending formal recognition to newly-elected bosses of LCN families, and, from time to time, resolving leadership disputes within LCN families

[Charlie]

- Precedent. We know the families closed the books between 1931 and 1944, then between 1957 and 1976. I can't think of any sources who were "shocked" by these decisions, which suggests the trend goes back further and that "closing the books" for extended periods was not uncommon in the overall history of the mafia. The more we study the mafia, we know that it mostly stays the same and rarely revolutionizes itself. Like we talked about in the other thread, the Commission wasn't even as revolutionary as we once thought. Given the NYC books were closed for significant periods in the 1930s-40s, then in the 1950s-1970s, it gives some credence to Valachi's idea that the books had been closed for an extended period earlier... even if he didn't get the details right.

We also have evidence, I think it was the DeCarlo tapes, of guys getting made between 1931 and 1944. So were the books really closed during that timeframe?
If I remember correctly he says Funzi Tieri, Lorenzo Brescio and Peter DeFeo were all made by Luciano in 1933.

[B.]

I saw that transcript not too long ago and it seemed like they were guessing on the exact year those three got made, but that it was in the early 1930s. I think it's more likely 1931.

Wouldn't rule out the possibility of guys getting in after 1931, but guys like Boiardo, Catena, and Delmore had to wait until 1944 which is evidence there wasn't an earlier opportunity to make them, at least in NJ.

[PolackTony]

I wish we knew more about what Chicago and Detroit were doing across these time periods. While the general consensus has been that Chicago was not subject to NYC closing the books, it’s still very interesting that we have CI intel that Northside capo Joey DiVarco stated that a making ceremony would be held in ‘76 with Accardo presiding, specifically stating that the books had been closed for a “long time”. We know that guys were made in the 60s in Chicago, of course, but it still stands out that DiVarco said this in ‘76. Suggests to me that Chicago was at least somewhat responsive to the Commission edicts on the books being opened in that year. Too much that we don’t know to make a firm statement on this question, but it’s something to think about.

What is known about the books in Philly, Buffalo, or NE during these extended periods that the books were closed in NYC?

[Pogo The Clown]

What is known about the books in Philly, Buffalo, or NE during these extended periods that the books were closed in NYC?

It was only for NY and NJ. After Valachi flipped Philly had their books closed for a brief period but then they were opened again by the early/mid 1960s. NE and Buffalo might have had their closed for a while as well but if they were it was not for the full period like NY and NJ.


Pogo

[RamshackleMan]

Perhaps Gambino's idea was indeed for the mob, as a large criminal organization, to die out and some of the more well connected to become more or less legitimate.

I think this is close to the truth if not unmitigated fact. I don’t ascribe any notions of nobility to his aims, but I believe Gambino saw La Cosa Nostra as a way for “his people” to make inroads into American business and culture, not as a multi-generational crime empire. Assimilation was the ultimate goal.

[MightyDR]

The New York Times actually broke this story just a few weeks after it happened.
https://www.nytimes.com/1976/03/21/arch ... Position=5

Tutti Franzese's FBI file mentions a Genovese soldier being inducted and their name is redacted. Turns out it was John Russo. Looks like Benny Eggs was made in the first wave too.

[Pogo The Clown]

Good find on that article. Interesting how such info was released to the public way back then.


Pogo