Montagna's Epic Potential to Be Canada's Boss (scarpos claim montagna was aligned w the cartels)

[Lupara]

But to say he was illegaly in America and then build a fantasy on that idea is just another way to say "GO TEAM CANADA".

And that's what this is all about, because 'Canada has da best gangsters yo'. They'll continue trying to find reasons to downplay his movements and significance to all these events.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Who's "they"? And who said Canada had the best gangsters? I'm questioning his Ontario connections. And judging from the text messages shared by the Gazette, whatever, whomever he was in NY, acting boss of the Bonannos, that simply didn't seem to matter once he was deported into Montreal and tried his attempt at a takeover. The Desjardins/Mirarchi texts seem to imply that he was considered to be small time, despite the weight he may have carried in NY, he doesn't seem to have mattered in Montreal, which I think validates the question, of if he in fact was able to build on his various trips into Montreal, was he able to make contacts and develop his own relationships with mobsters not only in Ontario, but even within Montreal, or was he simply making these visits on behalf of another, someone like Scascia, or an Arcuri cousin, and was essentially viewed as a messenger prior to his permanent residence? Even a member whom you all value highly, including myself, referred to him as a transplant who imposed and tried to 'improvise' as a mafia chief in another country. And these text messages seem to validate that.

[Chucky]

"They" are guys who were saying, after he was deported, that Montagna was nothing more than a Basciano flunky (as B. put it) and would be a nobody in Montreal. Even after he was killed and there was evidence he had become a bit of a force up there...they doubled down, basically because Bonanno = Dumb and Canada/Rizzuto = Smart.

I wouldn't use texts between Desjardins and Mirarchi to be the end all, be all in terms of how guys viewed Montagna up there. What do you think Montagna and the Arcuri's were saying about Desjardins or Mirarchi? I don't know how someone who became acting boss of a NY family at 36 as well as being a major catalyst for the shit in Montreal can be considered small time.

[Angelo Santino]

"They" are guys who were saying, after he was deported, that Montagna was nothing more than a Basciano flunky (as B. put it) and would be a nobody in Montreal. Even after he was killed and there was evidence he had become a bit of a force up there...they doubled down, basically because Bonanno = Dumb and Canada/Rizzuto = Smart.

I wouldn't use texts between Desjardins and Mirarchi to be the end all, be all in terms of how guys viewed Montagna up there. What do you think Montagna and the Arcuri's were saying about Desjardins or Mirarchi? I don't know how someone who became acting boss of a NY family at 36 as well as being a major catalyst for the shit in Montreal can be considered small time.

I was guilty of that. I didn't think Montagna could rely on NY to seek control. But that didn't stop him from trying and it turns out, he was involved in alot of it. Maybe not as the sole leader, but as someone with connections making the case as to why people should go with him. I was wrong and JoeyCigars was right.

[Lupara]

"They" are guys who were saying, after he was deported, that Montagna was nothing more than a Basciano flunky (as B. put it) and would be a nobody in Montreal. Even after he was killed and there was evidence he had become a bit of a force up there...they doubled down, basically because Bonanno = Dumb and Canada/Rizzuto = Smart.

I wouldn't use texts between Desjardins and Mirarchi to be the end all, be all in terms of how guys viewed Montagna up there. What do you think Montagna and the Arcuri's were saying about Desjardins or Mirarchi?

Exactly. Both groups made derogatory remarks about each other because they hated each other's guts. Ofcourse there's no denying that Desjardins and Mirarchi didn't accept Montagna's rule, which was the reason for their dispute in the first place. The Desjardins-Mirarchi group was independent from both the Rizzutos and the Bonannos. They did indeed consider Montagna a transplant.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

"They" are guys who were saying, after he was deported, that Montagna was nothing more than a Basciano flunky (as B. put it) and would be a nobody in Montreal. Even after he was killed and there was evidence he had become a bit of a force up there...they doubled down, basically because Bonanno = Dumb and Canada/Rizzuto = Smart.

I wouldn't use texts between Desjardins and Mirarchi to be the end all, be all in terms of how guys viewed Montagna up there. What do you think Montagna and the Arcuri's were saying about Desjardins or Mirarchi? I don't know how someone who became acting boss of a NY family at 36 as well as being a major catalyst for the shit in Montreal can be considered small time.

But we don't know in what capacity or exactly how he became a catalyst, that's what I'm saying. The article says right in it what Montagna was saying about Desjardins, he was calling him old, probably someone who was past his prime, and who's time was up, same way he thought of Nicolo in all likelihood. But again, how does him becoming an acting boss of a struggling family actually make him a force in Montreal? Again, I think the questions are very valid when it comes to if his connections within Montreal and Ontario were that strong at all. If they were so strong, how did Desjardins and Mirarchi manage to get Colapelle to if not infiltrate Montagna's group, then turn on him and jump sides and manage to create a way where Desjardins and Mirarchi knew his every move? If they were so strong, then how did it seem to all fall apart after Montagna and Mirarchi withdrew support? If they were that strong, why did he fail at luring Desjardins allies to HIS side? If they were that strong, then why, according to Antonio Nicaso and Peter Edwards, did Montagna attempt to shift blame to Libertina Rizzuto after his attempt on Desjardins failed? That implies greatly that Montagna knew he was in trouble after his plan to kill Desjardins failed, and that he at least tried to draw Desjardins and Mirarchi back into his fold. And you cant simply disregard what Nicaso and Edwards say in the Business and Blood book in regards to this situation, because they mentioned these texts, without mentioning what was actually said in them, and other details in that very same book, long before the publication ban was lifted a few weeks ago. They mentioned the meeting after the attempt on Desjardins , and they also mentioned almost word for word what Di Maulo told the police when they had asked him to use his skill to keep this war from happening.

If Montagna's connections were so strong, why did he become a virtual recluse, after the hit attempt on Desjardins failed? Combine all of this, with Desjardins and Mirarchi's texts, and it shows that its much more than the texts themselves that say Montagna was small time in Canada. If his connections were so strong, then why after he failed to have Desjardins killed, did he even agree long after the fact to come out of seclusion and meet with Desjardins forces in the first place, on the day he was killed? It very much seems like Montagna relied on Desjardins and Mirarchi, believing his bullshit and realigning themselves with him, so they can either continue as originally planned, or that he could attempt to once again cut the head off the snake, and remove Desjardins, then Mirarchi and with that take advantage of the twos connections and only then, firmly establish his own power base. All of this gives the implication , that at the very least, Montagna greatly valued the help of Desjardins and Mirarchi, so he can at least make them feel safe, have them removed and claim their connections and alliances as his own by the simple process of elimination.

Montagna may have carried more weight, than the average soldier in Canada, but all of what's coming out definitely gives off the implication that he simply wasn't on the level of a boss like Desjardins and someone close to him. And for all of Di Maulo's credit , he was a mediator, and a businessman it seems, for its said that he sold off Rizzutos Platinum Sports book to the Siderno group, it seems he had the power to mediate and bring guys together, and to use his business connections to create powerful men in the underworld, but in order for that to work, he needed the support of the men with the power. It just seems like after Vito went away, and everyone else was locked away after Operation Colisee, that the most powerful man in Montreal may have been Raynald Desjardins, and for everything Mirarchi already had, as far as connections go, he benefitted too from his relationship with Desjardins. Its beginning to appear as if Montagna knew that, and thought he could eliminate Desjardins through sneaky shit. And once all that failed, he had nowhere else to turn and practically begged for Desjardins & co to believe him and come back, so he could try it all again.


Again, I'm not saying that's what it was, but from everything Nicaso and Edwards wrote , down to the Gazette article, that's how its appearing to be. Its looking like Montagnas connections weren't that strong or tight at all, and that he at least depended on everything Desjardins built and created for his underworld success and longevity, and thought that for the meantime, he'll allow Desjardins to be the force, the power behind his push, only to eliminate him when Desjardins least expected it, and absorb it all for himself. Long story short, its beginning to look like Montagna may have played third man to Desjardins and Mirarchi, and felt he'd use that to first take over the Sicilian clan, remove Desjardins and Mirarchi and then run the whole thing by himself. Once Desjardins and Mirarchi withdrew support , everything went up in jeopardy, Montagna knew it and tried everything he could to keep that from happening.

[Lupara]

Desjardins was an established and respected individual within the Montreal Mafia and he had the moral support of Di Maulo. The old Bonanno crew had also become disfunctional due to the lack of a new caporegime and the problems the Bonannos faced in New York. Because of this Desjardins had indeed a stronger powerbase than Montagna, who gained a lot of his power and influence from his alliance with Desjardins. But the fact that Montagna was able to gain support from Desjardins in the first place shows that he was definitely not a nobody, as you guys like to see him. Apparantly the Bonanno banner still had meaning in Montreal otherwise Montagna wouldn't have been able to move against Nicolo Rizzuto and been given a slize of the pie.

[Dwalin2014]

What I still don't understand is why did Montagna agree to meet with Desjardins's men AFTER making the attempt on his life? It was like putting your head into the lion's mouth. Unless he thought Desjardins hadn't yet figured out who tried to kill him? On the other hand, could the other theory be correct, that it was the Rizzuto loyalists who tried to kill Desjardins and he mistakingly blamed Montagna? What do you think?

That reminds me: when Desjardins was first arrested for Montagna's murder I thought HE was a Rizzuto loyalist and killed Montagna to avenge all the Rizzuto men killed. Today that point of view seems kind of funny, considering what we know now

[OlBlueEyesClub]

Desjardins was an established and respected individual within the Montreal Mafia and he had the moral support of Di Maulo. The old Bonanno crew had also become disfunctional due to the lack of a new caporegime and the problems the Bonannos faced in New York. Because of this Desjardins had indeed a stronger powerbase than Montagna, who gained a lot of his power and influence from his alliance with Desjardins. But the fact that Montagna was able to gain support from Desjardins in the first place shows that he was definitely not a nobody, as you guys like to see him. Apparantly the Bonanno banner still had meaning in Montreal otherwise Montagna wouldn't have been able to move against Nicolo Rizzuto and been given a slize of the pie.

So basically that just confirms everything I've been saying for the past couple of pages. Montagna relied on Desjardins in a way, and once Desjardins withdrew his support, a lot of Montagna's "power and influence" went up in smoke. And again, I don't know who "you guys" are, as I'm not saying personally that I believed Montagna was a nobody, but that's the picture the evidence seems to be painting. Desjardins and Mirarchi, and according to Nicaso and Edwards, others as well referred to him as "Mickey Mouse", the texts show that Desjardins and Mirarchi knew that Montagna would never be able , on his own, to get support he needed to fulfill his dreams of being a boss in Montreal, let alone taking them out. Clearly, Montagna wasn't taken very seriously once Desjardins and Mirarchi were no longer aligned with him. And because he was able to get Desjardins support in the first place, doesn't necessarily mean Montagna was considered even then to be much of a factor. You already named what I believe to be the key factor to getting Desjardins and Montagna together, and that's Joe Di Maulo, again in "Business Or Blood", Nicaso and Edwards, say that Di Maulo handled the introductions more often than not for Montagna. Again, its just looking like all those trips Montagna took to Montreal prior to being deported, were all for naught and that he never really established strong connections of his own, and relied heavily on others, like Desjardins and Di Maulo, to establish a hopeful powerbase. Like, everything that's come out so far, gives the implication that Montagna wasn't thought of very highly , or that he had such strong connections and alliances before and after his deportation. While at the same time, there hasn't been much that has come out that implies otherwise, or supports the theory that he had established his own connections and alliances and was actually thought of as a potential boss outside of NY.

[Lupara]

It confirms what I've been saying long before you ever came up with it. I've always stated that Desjardins was a very powerful individual in Montreal.

They do not state in the book that Di Maulo was doing the introductions for Montagna. Again, you are making shit up.

[OlBlueEyesClub]

You're right, it wasn't Di Maulo, it was Domenico Arcuri Sr. who was doing introductions for Montagna, as stated on page 154, if you want to go read for yourself. I apologize for my mistake, however I didn't make up anything, I simply made a mistake and confused the two. And that wasn't what I was talking about, I think you know fully well what I meant when I said your comment basically confirmed everything I've been saying, which is that Montagna's connections and alliances may have not been that strong and that he was relying heavily on Desjardin's, not that Desjardins was a powerful individual, thats common knowledge. And just like I've been speculating about Montagna's tactics, the Journal article you posted earlier confirms through Desjardin's texts that Montagna would basically bully his way into extortion rackets and pizzo collections, because with Nicolo Rizzuto Sr gone, and the reluctance of Agostino Cuntrera to take an offensive stance, there probably was no one else around to claim those collections and to protect the construction and various other businesses, so he just claimed what was there as his own. And the more texts that come out, it's just confirming my speculation and making my questions even more valid, why if Montagna didn't need to rely on Desjardins and Mirarchi's support, why did he and his men blame the attempt on Desjardins life on Libertina Rizzuto, claiming that she was now heading the family and actually involving herself in criminal activities and going so far to plan hits? Which Desjardins obviously never believed. And the English translation is rough, but if you or anyone else can read French, I'm assuming that "Old" is actually referring to Desjardins in that one text from Bertolo, and that "her" is actually "him"? Am I correct or am I way wrong? If I'm correct, and I'm not saying I am, but just IF I am, that text also confirms that Montagna's connections and alliances were NOT as strong and tight as some in this thread were insisting earlier on, because if I'm right, then Bertolo is saying that Montagna said right during his meet with Bertolo to relay to Desjardins or his guys, that Desjardins is the "only ally he has in Montreal" and that "there would be no reason to do that to him", as in try to kill him..Now that I think about it, I think I'm pretty much on point, because in the English article first posted by the Gazette, it says that Montagna and his supporters were using the word "old" as a code-name for Desjardins, and apparently even his supporters called him "old" through texts, which at times seems derogatory from Montagna's camp, unless he's begging, but seems like a term of endearment from Desjardin's supporters. So that whole article by Journal confirms that Montagna greatly relied on Desjardins and his support, Montagna was holding Bertolo's hand trying to convince even him, his own supporter, and Arcuri was damn near about to cry, Bertolo says he had "tears in his eyes". So I ask again, if Montagna built such these strong connections and alliances with gangsters in Ontario, all on his own, and during his visits to Montreal prior to deportation he formed such these tight relationships within Montreal, then why was he desperately trying to convince Desjardins that it wasn't them who tried to murder him? Why would he very well beg for Desjardins & Mirarchi to come back into his fold, if he had these strong relationships with various gangsters inside, and outside of Montreal and didn't need to rely on Desjardins' and his support?

These articles are giving the implication that Montagna NEEDED Desjardins and Mirarchi by extension, at least for the time being until he possibly got the chance to kill Desjardins again, and take by force everything Desjardins built, meaning his underworld connections and relationships. It clearly seems like after Desjardins and Mirarchi withdrew support, Montagna honestly thought he could remove him from the picture, and after that failed, he KNEW it was only a matter of time for him. If he was such a force in Montreal, on his own after deportation, why was he acting this way? Why was he so fearful of his future? Read those texts, Desjardins says Montagna was texting him, trying to sell him a story that he wasn't behind the attempt on his life, that he "cries like a baby", do these sound like the actions of a man who had his own stable relationships and alliances with other Canadian gangsters? Does all this sound like the actions of a man whom was a force and was feared by many all because he was an acting boss of a destabilized NY family, whom had to be recognized as a power because he built strong and stable bonds in the milieu during his early visits to Montreal long before he was deported?

I give Montagna credit for this however, on November 16th, Mirarchi included this line as part of his text, "these guys are dangerous". This was after he learned that Moreno Gallo had sent weapons and other things to Montagna, and that Montagna brought in guys from New York to help him. Now I only have to wonder, did Montagna REALLY have guys from NY down in Montreal at that time, or was he blowing hot air like Nicaso & Edwards imply, in Business Or Blood? Because the following months after that text, I don't believe any other attempts were made on Desjardins or Mirarchi, not by NY guys, not by anyone, and then Montagna agrees to meet with Desjardin's group and is murdered. Whatever the case, there was never any mention of Ontario support for Montagna, or any real Montreal support for that matter, other than Gallo. So again, for everything that some were saying earlier in this thread, implying that Montagna had built these stable ties to Southern Ontario and Montreal gangsters all on his own, and didn't have to rely on Desjardins or Mirarchi, so far nothing has come out to support that.


Here's the article Lupara linked in the other thread, that the majority of this post is based on:


http://www.journaldemontreal.com/2016/0 ... n-decrypte

[B.]

I hadn't considered Montagna's legal status in terms of traveling between countries and I don't really know how green cards work, but getting into Canada would have been a non-issue given he was a natural-born citizen. As for getting back into the US, he was a business owner with residence in NY for decades and at that point a fairly unknown mafia member. Whatever his official status, he had some clear advantages that border-hopping Mexicans don't have, and even they're able to get through in large numbers.

Cicale claims that during Basciano's time as acting boss, he sent Montagna to Canada to request tribute money from the Rizzutos. He says Rizzuto was unhappy with the request because it was significantly more money than the tribute they had paid when Tony Green was the acting boss, but he ultimately complied. Since Vito Rizzuto was in prison at this point, I'm not sure who Montagna met with. We can assume that Cicale, who heard this second or third hand via Baldo Amato, did not know the specifics and was simply referring to representatives of Rizzuto who met with Montagna.

[Chucky]

I wonder if tribute payments continued with Mancuso and Montagna when they were acting boss(es)?

[Pogo The Clown]

We can assume that Cicale, who heard this second or third hand via Baldo Amato, did not know the specifics and was simply referring to representatives of Rizzuto who met with Montagna.

Wasn't Amato in prison during this whole period? I think he was in prison from his 1999 bust. He was also indicted for murder in early 2004 before Basciano became Acting Boss. How would Amato have heard about these meetings and tributes and how did he get to tell Cicale?


Pogo

[B.]

We can assume that Cicale, who heard this second or third hand via Baldo Amato, did not know the specifics and was simply referring to representatives of Rizzuto who met with Montagna.

Wasn't Amato in prison during this whole period? I think he was in prison from his 1999 bust. He was also indicted for murder in early 2004 before Basciano became Acting Boss. How would Amato have heard about these meetings and tributes and how did he get to tell Cicale?


Pogo

Yep, Amato and Cicale were both jailed together for a time (at the MCC in early 2005 I believe), which is where Cicale says he was told.

Montagna was close to Amato (Amato being a Castellammarese and another very close friend of Sciascia), so I guess the assumption would be that Montagna told Amato either through a visit or phone call.