General Chicago Outfit Info Dumping Ground

[Snakes]

North Side was a lucrative area in the 60s and early 70s. Lots of guys from different crews had interests there.

Yup. We know that guys like Obie Frabotta, Lenny Gianola, Alderisio, and Marshall Caifano were active on the Northside (which was itself a large densely urban territory with a bunch of distinct neighborhoods and lots of economic activity. Not at all equivalent to a suburban town like Stone Park or something), to the point that some CIs in that period thought that Caifano was a Northside member. Also, as we now know that for at least part of that period, Alderisio and Caifano were direct with Mooney, in theory at least the entirety of Chicagoland would’ve been their “territory” (again, it’s a good deal to be a soldier with the boss). Frattiano also stated that Frabotta had been a soldier direct with Accardo when he met him in the 50s, so that could also be part of the context of his interests up North (Lakeview/Town Hall District).

LaPietra had juice customers on the North Side. Red Wemette made payments to Grand Avenue but I believe his shop was on the North Side.

Assuming the North Side was folded into Elmwood Park, Andriacchi would have been capo of that crew at the time.

[PolackTony]

North Side was a lucrative area in the 60s and early 70s. Lots of guys from different crews had interests there.

Yup. We know that guys like Obie Frabotta, Lenny Gianola, Alderisio, and Marshall Caifano were active on the Northside (which was itself a large densely urban territory with a bunch of distinct neighborhoods and lots of economic activity. Not at all equivalent to a suburban town like Stone Park or something), to the point that some CIs in that period thought that Caifano was a Northside member. Also, as we now know that for at least part of that period, Alderisio and Caifano were direct with Mooney, in theory at least the entirety of Chicagoland would’ve been their “territory” (again, it’s a good deal to be a soldier with the boss). Frattiano also stated that Frabotta had been a soldier direct with Accardo when he met him in the 50s, so that could also be part of the context of his interests up North (Lakeview/Town Hall District).

LaPietra had juice customers on the North Side. Red Wemette made payments to Grand Avenue but I believe his shop was on the North Side.

Assuming the North Side was folded into Elmwood Park, Andriacchi would have been capo of that crew at the time.

Red’s shop was on the Near Northside (where a bunch of porn shops and other shady businesses were concentrated) and had been paying tax to Caifano, who as we know was active there. Caifano’s interests in that area IMO predated his affiliation with the Battaglia/Lombardo crew. But, there were overlaps in territory between the Northside and Grand Ave probably going back to like 1900. We don’t really know, for example, how guys like Benevento, DeJohn, and DeGeorge’s crew affiliations functioned vis-a-vis Accardo/Capezio, and all of those guys back in the day were on the same small strip of Grand Ave together.

Nick C also stated that him and Frank and had been collecting protection money from Tony Spavone’a restaurant, but they were told to back off Spavone as he was under Cerone’s protection (don’t know if Nick specified the year, so I don’t know if they were with Cicero or Chinatown then, but either way the money presumably was going to Angelo). This is a clear case of territory not being the issue, but rather personal ties (IMO the Spavones became an asset for the Family’s admin because of their close links to the upper echelons of the Camorra in Naples).

Agreed that the scenario with the Northside being folded into EP would be a plausible one for Andriacchi being Northside capo. Maybe this happened after Matassa, who may have been bumped to the admin at some point. Then, both were possibly folded into Grand Ave. Or not. I’m always questioning these assumptions because we really just don’t know WTF was going on IMO. These things were debated a lot several years ago but I haven’t thought about them much lately and it can be useful to revisit them periodically. I don’t think we’ve learned much of substance since then in terms of the organizational structure, however, so all we can really do is reinterpret or reconsider the info that we already had.

[Snakes]

It was theorized that the Outfit split into three "territories" or "crews" around the mid-90s and the CCC had the chart with the North(Northside/EP/Grand Avenue), West(Cicero/MP/western suburbs), and South (Chinatown/Heights) splits. However, I've seen enough evidence that the Outfit still had four or five crews at this time, with North Side and the Heights more or less defunct, but Cicero/West Side, EP, Chinatown, GAC, and Melrose Park still operating as active crews.

[PolackTony]

I'm sure a big factor also is some of these guys having relatives in certain crews - I've read on this forum that Vena's father "Blind Louie" was a Grand Avenue guy probably under Alderisio who appears to have been Lombardo's boss as well.

The familial and paesani networks are another axis, one that often though not always corresponds to neighborhood/geography.

FWIW, the whole “Blind Louie” thing seems to be mainly speculation. I’ve heard that Louis Vena (Albie’s father) and Louis Panozzo (Bobby P’s father) used to run in a burglary crew in the Patch together, but IIRC it was SolarSolano who said that Louis Vena was called “Blind Louie”. He was booted off this forum for unrelated matters and thus isn’t here to make his argument; I can just say that I’m not aware that either Louis was affiliated with the outfit in any formal sense (beyond the ways that hundreds, thousands, of neighborhood criminals in Chicagoland were peripherally involved in the criminal networks that emanated out from the mafia). Not saying that I know for a fact that they weren’t, but nothing I’ve seen would support this. Louie Panozzo was pinched in ‘63 for holding $20k in stolen goods in his home in Humboldt Park, but beyond that neither guy ever made the papers, was ever mentioned by anyone in any FBI file, or (so far as I recall) ever appeared in any chart (not even the CCC, who practically put the guy behind the corner at the local deli on their charts as a “soldier”). For me, “outfit guy” denotes a formally affiliated “LCN associate” (a guy on record or “with” a made guy, or at least directly reporting to a high-level associate partnered with made guys, like Alex or Patrick), who belongs to an actual outfit crew as an affiliate and answers, directly or indirectly, to that crew’s capo (longtime burglar Ritchie Mara’s 1980s testimony made it clear to me that this understanding was/is shared by guys on the street, as he clearly delimited himself from an “outfit guy” belonging to a crew); Nick C have us a window into how this worked for him and his brother before they were themselves made. I’m not aware that Louie Vena ever had anything remotely like that sort of formal relationship with Alderisio or any other made guy.

The only connected guy I’m aware of who went by “Blind Louie” was a guy named Louie Cavallaro, who was convicted in 1978 for extorting low-level Rush St juice collector Johnny Clemente. Cavallaro — who was actually blind — reportedly threatened to brutally torture Clemente and/or kill his wife if he didn’t cut Cavallaro in on his collections. Cavallaro has hardly ever been discussed.

[NorthBuffalo]

Thanks for the response - I actually saw Vena's father discussed by Fosco on his forums too. Ironically, he also discussed Cavallaro who was working with Armando Fosco. A ton of guys in locals were reading Fosco's website years ago because we all hoped he would talk about the labor scams, but rarely did.

[B.]

The DeCavalcantes were also involved w/ Buffalo through union business and Riggi met with Buffalo members when he was business agent. We know there were strong historic ties between Chicago and the DeCavs, curious if that ever involved union business.

[NorthBuffalo]

The DeCavalcantes were also involved w/ Buffalo through union business and Riggi met with Buffalo members when he was business agent. We know there were strong historic ties between Chicago and the DeCavs, curious if that ever involved union business.

LIUNA included Riggi and Castaldo of that family in their initial complaint, along with Todaro, Aiuppa, Solano and the full cast. It was fairly clear to me that Riggi would have been subservient to Chicago and potentially Buffalo from my view, given they had the larger locals and were calling shots.

https://jimmcgough.tripod.com/ricocomplaint.htm

[PolackTony]

Thanks for the response - I actually saw Vena's father discussed by Fosco on his forums too. Ironically, he also discussed Cavallaro who was working with Armando Fosco. A ton of guys in locals were reading Fosco's website years ago because we all hoped he would talk about the labor scams, but rarely did.

Oh yeah? I don’t recall Fosco talking about Louis Vena, but some of those old ANP posts I haven’t read in years now. I do recall him mentioning Cavallaro as close to his dad, and Cavallaro is a guy that hardly anyone talks about.

Cool to know that there were guys in Buffalo following Fosco’s ANP stuff, as the audience so far as I ever knew was obviously heavily Chicago guys. Have you ever heard if the Foscos had ties to Buffalo guys?

Another one I’d wonder about was Al Pilotto, who was capo of Chicago Heights and head of LIUNA Local 5.

[Snakes]

The DeCavalcantes were also involved w/ Buffalo through union business and Riggi met with Buffalo members when he was business agent. We know there were strong historic ties between Chicago and the DeCavs, curious if that ever involved union business.

There was an alleged meeting in Florida in 1989 or so that was supposed to have involved the Gambinos, DeCavs, and Chicago, with Carlisi there for Chicago -- ostensibly to discuss union business. FBI never nailed down where the meeting was to take place so it isn't certain if it did. Still, they had enough evidence to stake the meeting place out.

[funkster]

Thanks for the response - I actually saw Vena's father discussed by Fosco on his forums too. Ironically, he also discussed Cavallaro who was working with Armando Fosco. A ton of guys in locals were reading Fosco's website years ago because we all hoped he would talk about the labor scams, but rarely did.

Oh yeah? I don’t recall Fosco talking about Louis Vena, but some of those old ANP posts I haven’t read in years now. I do recall him mentioning Cavallaro as close to his dad, and Cavallaro is a guy that hardly anyone talks about.

Cool to know that there were guys in Buffalo following Fosco’s ANP stuff, as the audience so far as I ever knew was obviously heavily Chicago guys. Have you ever heard if the Foscos had ties to Buffalo guys?

Another one I’d wonder about was Al Pilotto, who was capo of Chicago Heights and head of LIUNA Local 5.

I mean, there were threads upon threads upon subthreads on there so theres plenty to have been missed.

[PolackTony]

Thanks for the response - I actually saw Vena's father discussed by Fosco on his forums too. Ironically, he also discussed Cavallaro who was working with Armando Fosco. A ton of guys in locals were reading Fosco's website years ago because we all hoped he would talk about the labor scams, but rarely did.

Oh yeah? I don’t recall Fosco talking about Louis Vena, but some of those old ANP posts I haven’t read in years now. I do recall him mentioning Cavallaro as close to his dad, and Cavallaro is a guy that hardly anyone talks about.

Cool to know that there were guys in Buffalo following Fosco’s ANP stuff, as the audience so far as I ever knew was obviously heavily Chicago guys. Have you ever heard if the Foscos had ties to Buffalo guys?

Another one I’d wonder about was Al Pilotto, who was capo of Chicago Heights and head of LIUNA Local 5.

I mean, there were threads upon threads upon subthreads on there so theres plenty to have been missed.

For sure. If anyone comes across where Fosco mentioned Louie Vena, make sure to post it. I tried looking but didn’t find it.

When I revisit the old ANP stuff something else always jumps out at me and leads me down some rabbit hole following up on it.

[funkster]

Yeah, the format was super wonky and didnt make for easy following thats for sure.

[Patrickgold]

Where did you hear that he was trying to make money on the streets after he got out Patrick? Just stuff you heard in passing?

I heard from a reputable source when he told me he passed away. I didn’t ask him to expand on it but Im going to asked him to expand on what exactly he was trying to get involved in and will post when I get the info.

[funkster]

Sounds like a solid source. Thanks for the info. Also, scott seems to be hearing some similar stuff you've mentioned.

In Scott's recent articles about their dealings with Patty Red, he said that he heard that Jimmy I and Patty met while locked up. Shot over to GangsterBB for a second and someone on there said they didnt think any of them could have crossed paths based on FBOP website timelines. Then again, scott also said they know each through union dealings.

[B.]

The DeCavalcantes were also involved w/ Buffalo through union business and Riggi met with Buffalo members when he was business agent. We know there were strong historic ties between Chicago and the DeCavs, curious if that ever involved union business.

There was an alleged meeting in Florida in 1989 or so that was supposed to have involved the Gambinos, DeCavs, and Chicago, with Carlisi there for Chicago -- ostensibly to discuss union business. FBI never nailed down where the meeting was to take place so it isn't certain if it did. Still, they had enough evidence to stake the meeting place out.

Great info.

National union meetings used to be held at the Diplomat Hotel when it was controlled by the Buffalo Family through their union local. Wouldn't be surprised if union reps from all these Families met there.