Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

Here’s the thing, Wiseguy. You can’t present that argument that “Hey, maybe the Canadian press got a little overexcited.” WG, I’d like you to read this article, if you haven’t already; https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/national ... -mafia/amp

The article uses RCMP court papers AND wiretaps to establish that the Buffalo Mafia appeared to begin rebuilding in 2014, inducted Violi in 2015, etc.
This is not speculation or theory on behalf of the journalists. For example;
“ It was in October 2017, at a meeting in Florida, that Joseph Todaro Jr., the alleged Buffalo boss, told Violi he had hand-picked him, according to wiretap transcripts and summaries entered as exhibits in pre-trial proceedings.
After Violi recounted story to his friend, the New York mobster leaned in and kissed Violi in a traditional show of respect, the Crown’s evidence claimed. ”

“ Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.” ”

“ The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave. ”

I was talking about Candian journalists and the Mafia in their country overall, not necessarily about this case. None of what you posted above is being disputed. Once again (for at least the 20th time), it's about what this really means into relation to the overall state of the family.

Its the size of the drug operation that is very interesting IMO. The Buffalo / Hamilton family seems to be major wholesalers ( likely to Bonnano NY ). How man NY crews are moving 250 kilos of coke, 20K of opiates, 260k pills not to mention the 1000lbs weed. NY is still big into weed but who is arranging 200 kilo shipments today ? And this was just to 1 customer. Factor in the corrupt & ongoing DEA investigation which is still ongoing and tied to IOC in Buffalo and it seems Buffalo has become a major narcotics supplier for NY.

At the conclusion of the investigation the police had seized 6 kilograms of fentanyl, 40 kilograms of cocaine, plus a conspiracy to import over 200 kilograms, 13 kilograms of heroin, 260,000 MDMA & Methamphetamine pills, 3 kilograms of MDA and 3 handguns.

You're jumping to conclusions. First, it was one operation that was investigated from 2013 until the bust in 2017. If we were to see ongoing cases like this, that would be one thing. But you can't base your statments on an "ongoing DEA investigation." Second, you frame it as if the Buffalo LCN family is has been a major supplier to the NY families. When you read the reports put out by both the PPSC in Canada and the FBI in the U.S., this was an operation that involved members and associates of the Bonanno, Gambino and Buffalo families. And considering the NY families have been moving drugs from Canada to NY for a long time without any participation from Buffalo, one could be forgiven for assuming they were the major players in this more than Buffalo was.

[gohnjotti]

@Wiseguy, if you’re not disputing anything that has been included in RCMP court papers, then it looks like you’re on the same page as the rest of us. We are not at different conclusions on where the Buffalo Mafia is. We have both received the facts from LE, and we can both infer a few things;
1. There was an effort to re-organise the family in 2014. Is that in dispute?
2. Violi claims he was was inducted in 2015. Is that in dispute?
3. From Violi’s tapes to Morena, it’s inferred that Joseph Todaro authorises promotions, is in complete control of the family, and is actively exerting control within the organisation. Wayward members were given an ultimatum to leave or rejoin the family. In many ways it’s no different to the Colombos, and how Andy Russo reintroduced people into the family in 2011 after almost 20 years of these guys operating on their own. Is that in dispute?


Wiseguy, I don’t want to argue over the definition of viable or the definition of active. I want to know where you separate fact from fiction in regards to the RCMP’s evidence.

Regarding the National Post thing, I coulda sworn it was you or Pogo who disparaged it and compared it to the Daily Mail. I know it wasn’t me, coz I had never heard of the National Post. I don’t have the patience to look into the threads and find out, so whatever

[Wiseguy]

1. There was an effort to re-organise the family in 2014. Is that in dispute?

Depends on what you mean by "reorganize." That term gives the impression it was some big overall that brought the family back to life. What we actually saw involved a few individuals.

2. Violi claims he was was inducted in 2015. Is that in dispute?

No. Though, again, him getting made in 2015 and being upped to underboss not long after should tell you something.

3. From Violi’s tapes to Morena, it’s inferred that Joseph Todaro authorises promotions, is in complete control of the family, and is actively exerting control within the organisation. Wayward members were given an ultimatum to leave or rejoin the family. In many ways it’s no different to the Colombos, and how Andy Russo reintroduced people into the family in 2011 after almost 20 years of these guys operating on their own. Is that in dispute?

If you're saying Todaro is the boss of a basically defunct family (with some recent activity by some Canadian members), no, that is not in disupte either. And there's a world of difference between the Colombos and what's left in Buffalo.

[gohnjotti]

1. There was an effort to re-organise the family in 2014. Is that in dispute?

Depends on what you mean by "reorganize." That term gives the impression it was some big overall that brought the family back to life. What we actually saw involved a few individuals.

2. Violi claims he was was inducted in 2015. Is that in dispute?

No. Though, again, him getting made in 2015 and being upped to underboss not long after should tell you something.

3. From Violi’s tapes to Morena, it’s inferred that Joseph Todaro authorises promotions, is in complete control of the family, and is actively exerting control within the organisation. Wayward members were given an ultimatum to leave or rejoin the family. In many ways it’s no different to the Colombos, and how Andy Russo reintroduced people into the family in 2011 after almost 20 years of these guys operating on their own. Is that in dispute?

If you're saying Todaro is the boss of a basically defunct family (with some recent activity by some Canadian members), no, that is not in disupte either. And there's a world of difference between the Colombos and what's left in Buffalo.

Basically defunct = enough cash, even if it’s from drug trafficking alone, to incentivise two former Buffalo bosses (Falzone and Todaro) to come back into the fold.

Basically defunct = enough potential for aspiring members, like Violi’s brother, to debate whether to join the Bonannos or Buffalo.

Basically defunct = enough prestige for a powerful Canadian drug lord and second-generation monster to decide to join them, and accept a promotion to underboss. Remember Violi isn’t some Joe Schmo. He has been under investigation since the 1990s, with links to police corruption and Mafia warfare.

[gohnjotti]

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

[TommyNoto]

Here’s the thing, Wiseguy. You can’t present that argument that “Hey, maybe the Canadian press got a little overexcited.” WG, I’d like you to read this article, if you haven’t already; https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/national ... -mafia/amp

The article uses RCMP court papers AND wiretaps to establish that the Buffalo Mafia appeared to begin rebuilding in 2014, inducted Violi in 2015, etc.
This is not speculation or theory on behalf of the journalists. For example;
“ It was in October 2017, at a meeting in Florida, that Joseph Todaro Jr., the alleged Buffalo boss, told Violi he had hand-picked him, according to wiretap transcripts and summaries entered as exhibits in pre-trial proceedings.
After Violi recounted story to his friend, the New York mobster leaned in and kissed Violi in a traditional show of respect, the Crown’s evidence claimed. ”

“ Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.” ”

“ The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave. ”

I was talking about Candian journalists and the Mafia in their country overall, not necessarily about this case. None of what you posted above is being disputed. Once again (for at least the 20th time), it's about what this really means into relation to the overall state of the family.

Its the size of the drug operation that is very interesting IMO. The Buffalo / Hamilton family seems to be major wholesalers ( likely to Bonnano NY ). How man NY crews are moving 250 kilos of coke, 20K of opiates, 260k pills not to mention the 1000lbs weed. NY is still big into weed but who is arranging 200 kilo shipments today ? And this was just to 1 customer. Factor in the corrupt & ongoing DEA investigation which is still ongoing and tied to IOC in Buffalo and it seems Buffalo has become a major narcotics supplier for NY.

At the conclusion of the investigation the police had seized 6 kilograms of fentanyl, 40 kilograms of cocaine, plus a conspiracy to import over 200 kilograms, 13 kilograms of heroin, 260,000 MDMA & Methamphetamine pills, 3 kilograms of MDA and 3 handguns.

You're jumping to conclusions. First, it was one operation that was investigated from 2013 until the bust in 2017. If we were to see ongoing cases like this, that would be one thing. But you can't base your statments on an "ongoing DEA investigation." Second, you frame it as if the Buffalo LCN family is has been a major supplier to the NY families. When you read the reports put out by both the PPSC in Canada and the FBI in the U.S., this was an operation that involved members and associates of the Bonanno, Gambino and Buffalo families. And considering the NY families have been moving drugs from Canada to NY for a long time without any participation from Buffalo, one could be forgiven for assuming they were the major players in this more than Buffalo was.

The weed, coke / pills and DEA were 3 separate incidents and I said “ likely “ about the Bonanno

I don’t assume , just follow the facts, the figures were from the joint RCMP / FBI project Otremens.

These figures were only from the informant / undercover buy(s) so its likely their volume is materially higher.

What’s interesting IMO is RCMP kept the task force from the Hamilton police insinuating that the Todaro family possibly had LE on the payroll which Giuseppe alluded to on the wiretap. Based on all the recent busts it seems the family has some reach / funds

I thought the below was interesting too , that Giuseppe has a crew , that he kicks up to Dominic and they have plenty of loyal guys that will do time for cash. Does anyone know who he was referring to about another guy in his crew getting popped
For coke / fentanyl ?

On another occasion, he bragged to the police agent about how he had paid for a lawyer for one of his crew members who was arrested last year on cocaine, guns and fentanyl charges. He was going to arrange for a fall guy to take responsibility for the crimes, he told the agent. When the police agent suggested that the fall guy would have to be someone very loyal, Joey replied, "We have a lot of people like that.” He said it would probably cost $150,000.

[thesociety 89]

Would anyone argue that buffalo might be more active than detroit at this point?

[TommyNoto]

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

I agree and great Stago comparison , the Todaro family are certainly no mickie mouse drug dealer . Who on NY today is selling 250 kilos or 250,000 pills to basically 1-2 customers to. They guys are doing million dollar deals and moving serious weight we haven’t seen NY handle in a long time

[gohnjotti]

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

I agree and great Stago comparison , the Todaro family are certainly no mickie mouse drug dealer . Who on NY today is selling 250 kilos or 250,000 pills to basically 1-2 customers to. They guys are doing million dollar deals and moving serious weight we haven’t seen NY handle in a long time

Exactly, we have seen far more disorganization and petty crimes than this. Colombo family acting boss Ralph DeLeo was moving only a couple of kilograms of coke at a time, and coordinating it all through his cell phone. Violi's organization was far larger.

[Angelo Santino]

I imagine some would argue retirement means no longer involved in committing crimes but what about those who fall into that description yet remain affiliated with the criminal organization? What would we call someone like Faffy Innarella who's in every current mob photo out of Philly yet is probably not active on the street?

A made member (I don't know his leve of activity) of a family still considered viable by the FBI (and other mob families).

But what do we label someone like that? Who remains connected but inactive from daily activity? Do we take them off the chart or leave them on? If we see this through the prism of a criminal gang its easier to just call him inactive but if we view it as a criminal freemasonry we'd consider him.

The closest example would be John Tronolone who was inching into semi-retirement mostly in Florida by the 1960's. He was recognized as boss of Cleveland in 85 despite living in Florida for the last 25 years. "Under" him in CL were 1-3 remaining mebmers and an active criminal network of gamblers, bookmakers and drug dealers. Today there's Iacobacci, so called "Acting Boss" and sole member. D'Elia's another example. San Francesco in the 60's etc. All of these examples are groups without an intact hierarchy and instead of managing a structure serve as representatives of an area and as a point man to be contacted in the event something related to Cleveland arises. If someone can't understand the idea of rappresentante and what it entails, then Peanut Tronolone being boss of Cleveland while living in Florida makes little sense.

I would think having an intact hierarchy would be a part of the very definition of a viable family but that's me (and apparently the FBI). And other mob families still recognizing the position and general mob membership of a guy (or handful of guys) doesn't necessarily shed light on their view of a family as a whole.

I thought so too, it remains a vital part of it, but there's more to what makes the mafia the mafia than the hierarchy. There's marriages, hometown affiliations transplanted nationally, it's just as much a social organization than it is a criminal one, even after a century.

Now see, 300 pages ago he was describing it as inactive and extinct and now it's not at that point. Good job, gentlemen! Maybe once this thread gets to 600 we'll get him to agree that maybe Violi was an underboss and 900 that Violi stated 30 made guys. All things in time! Salut.

Whoa, back up. All I said was that Buffalo was not far off from having a dozen old guys to being down to 2 old guys. Nobody has disagreed that Violi is underboss. The dispute is over how significant that is in relation to the family as a whole. And nobody is arguing that he didn't say what he said about 30 made guys. The disupte is whether to take that comment at face value given what other information we have.

Like I said, that's a move for you and makes me think there's still hope for Detroit.

[Wiseguy]

Basically defunct = enough cash, even if it’s from drug trafficking alone, to incentivise two former Buffalo bosses (Falzone and Todaro) to come back into the fold.

Basically defunct = enough potential for aspiring members, like Violi’s brother, to debate whether to join the Bonannos or Buffalo.

Basically defunct = enough prestige for a powerful Canadian drug lord and second-generation monster to decide to join them, and accept a promotion to underboss. Remember Violi isn’t some Joe Schmo. He has been under investigation since the 1990s, with links to police corruption and Mafia warfare.

I realize you and some others here are very impressed with some of the recent news come out of Buffalo. It reminds me of posters years ago after the 2006 gambling bust in Detroit. I wonder what you all will say a decade from now when little or nothing or else has happened with Buffalo? I'm guessing much the same as those who talked about Detroit back then. Crickets.

My advice is to enjoy the ambiguity while it lasts.

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

No, I'm not being loose with the term. It's the position of the FBI.

I haven't seen the incoming receipts of either the DeCavalcante family or mobsters in Buffalo. I do know the FBI still considers New Jersey viable. And, even though it is small and weak, looking at the last 20 years, it looks like a powerhouse compared to Buffalo.

Philadelphia has never ceased to be a viable family and has had ongoing activity. Not so with Buffalo. And both New Jersey and Philadelphia are considerably larger than what's left in Buffalo.

I'm surprised you're trying to draw parallels with the Colombos, New Jerey, and Philadelphia.

I agree and great Stago comparison , the Todaro family are certainly no mickie mouse drug dealer . Who on NY today is selling 250 kilos or 250,000 pills to basically 1-2 customers to. They guys are doing million dollar deals and moving serious weight we haven’t seen NY handle in a long time

There you go again with the hype and horseshit. Show me something beyond the OTremens case. So far, this was a one off joint operation that involved Buffalo guys and two NY families.

And are you really going to try and argue that Buffalo has larger drug operations than the NY families? If so, you're credibility just went to shit.

Exactly, we have seen far more disorganization and petty crimes than this. Colombo family acting boss Ralph DeLeo was moving only a couple of kilograms of coke at a time, and coordinating it all through his cell phone. Violi's organization was far larger.

Based on what? Once again, you can't talk about "Violi's organization" when it was a joint operation with two NY families.

The Colombo family has far more members and associates than what's left in Buffalo. Compare the indictments against the Colombos over the past 20 years to those in Buffalo.

Would anyone argue that buffalo might be more active than detroit at this point?

Not necessarily. Buffalo has simply had some more recent residual activity from what's left there.

But what do we label someone like that? Who remains connected but inactive from daily activity? Do we take them off the chart or leave them on? If we see this through the prism of a criminal gang its easier to just call him inactive but if we view it as a criminal freemasonry we'd consider him.

As long as he's a made member who hasn't flipped or died, he would be on the chart. Individual membership isn't the question here but rather the state of the overall family.

I thought so too, it remains a vital part of it, but there's more to what makes the mafia the mafia than the hierarchy. There's marriages, hometown affiliations transplanted nationally, it's just as much a social organization than it is a criminal one, even after a century.

And if you want to consider a handful of old members playing shuffelboard in Tampa all day a family, be my guest. But that doesn't really reflect reality.

Like I said, that's a move for you and makes me think there's still hope for Detroit.

On the contrary, as I said above, Detroit should be a cautionary tale to all who are currently on the Buffalo bandwagon.

[TommyNoto]

Basically defunct = enough cash, even if it’s from drug trafficking alone, to incentivise two former Buffalo bosses (Falzone and Todaro) to come back into the fold.

Basically defunct = enough potential for aspiring members, like Violi’s brother, to debate whether to join the Bonannos or Buffalo.

Basically defunct = enough prestige for a powerful Canadian drug lord and second-generation monster to decide to join them, and accept a promotion to underboss. Remember Violi isn’t some Joe Schmo. He has been under investigation since the 1990s, with links to police corruption and Mafia warfare.

I realize you and some others here are very impressed with some of the recent news come out of Buffalo. It reminds me of posters years ago after the 2006 gambling bust in Detroit. I wonder what you all will say a decade from now when little or nothing or else has happened with Buffalo? I'm guessing much the same as those who talked about Detroit back then. Crickets.

My advice is to enjoy the ambiguity while it lasts.

Couldn’t you admit that you are being a bit loose with the term “basically defunct?” I mean, don’t you think the Buffalo mob in 2017 was making more money than the DeCavalcante family in 2010, whose acting boss walked into a pizzeria in a hamfisted attempt to collect weekly protection? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 had a bit more formality and adherence to LCN rules compared to Philly in the 1990s, who were promoting guys directly from associate to boss? Don’t you think the Buffalo Mafia in 2017 were operating at a larger, more sophisticated scale than the DeCavalcante family with Stango in 2015?

No, I'm not being loose with the term. It's the position of the FBI.

I haven't seen the incoming receipts of either the DeCavalcante family or mobsters in Buffalo. I do know the FBI still considers New Jersey viable. And, even though it is small and weak, looking at the last 20 years, it looks like a powerhouse compared to Buffalo.

Philadelphia has never ceased to be a viable family and has had ongoing activity. Not so with Buffalo. And both New Jersey and Philadelphia are considerably larger than what's left in Buffalo.

I'm surprised you're trying to draw parallels with the Colombos, New Jerey, and Philadelphia.

I agree and great Stago comparison , the Todaro family are certainly no mickie mouse drug dealer . Who on NY today is selling 250 kilos or 250,000 pills to basically 1-2 customers to. They guys are doing million dollar deals and moving serious weight we haven’t seen NY handle in a long time

There you go again with the hype and horseshit. Show me something beyond the OTremens case. So far, this was a one off joint operation that involved Buffalo guys and two NY families.

And are you really going to try and argue that Buffalo has larger drug operations than the NY families? If so, you're credibility just went to shit.

Exactly, we have seen far more disorganization and petty crimes than this. Colombo family acting boss Ralph DeLeo was moving only a couple of kilograms of coke at a time, and coordinating it all through his cell phone. Violi's organization was far larger.

Based on what? Once again, you can't talk about "Violi's organization" when it was a joint operation with two NY families.

The Colombo family has far more members and associates than what's left in Buffalo. Compare the indictments against the Colombos over the past 20 years to those in Buffalo.

Would anyone argue that buffalo might be more active than detroit at this point?

Not necessarily. Buffalo has simply had some more recent residual activity from what's left there.

But what do we label someone like that? Who remains connected but inactive from daily activity? Do we take them off the chart or leave them on? If we see this through the prism of a criminal gang its easier to just call him inactive but if we view it as a criminal freemasonry we'd consider him.

As long as he's a made member who hasn't flipped or died, he would be on the chart. Individual membership isn't the question here but rather the state of the overall family.

I thought so too, it remains a vital part of it, but there's more to what makes the mafia the mafia than the hierarchy. There's marriages, hometown affiliations transplanted nationally, it's just as much a social organization than it is a criminal one, even after a century.

And if you want to consider a handful of old members playing shuffelboard in Tampa all day a family, be my guest. But that doesn't really reflect reality.

Like I said, that's a move for you and makes me think there's still hope for Detroit.

On the contrary, as I said above, Detroit should be a cautionary tale to all who are currently on the Buffalo bandwagon.

Why are you speculating and trying to talk down to us when we are only reciting info from directly from Canada and US law enforcement. Let’s keep it to the facts as outlined by LE

[Wiseguy]

Why are you speculating and trying to talk down to us when we are only reciting info from directly from Canada and US law enforcement. Let’s keep it to the facts as outlined by LE

Yes, let's keep it to the facts outlined by law enforcement. You copy and pasted some info involving the OTremens case but you keep essentially attributing the entire operation (including conspiracy amounts) to Buffalo alone.

[Lupara]

No. Though, again, him getting made in 2015 and being upped to underboss not long after should tell you something.

When Bruno went from soldier to boss, what did that tell you? When Gotti was made and instantly upped to captain, what did that tell you? I'm sure there are many other examples.

If you're saying Todaro is the boss of a basically defunct family (with some recent activity by some Canadian members), no, that is not in disupte either. And there's a world of difference between the Colombos and what's left in Buffalo.

So basically we have a defunct active family here with a boss, underboss, captain and at least a dozen members left, correct? A glorified crew that is working closely with the Bonannos and some factions in Ontario and Montreal. Sounds pretty interesting to me.

[Wiseguy]

When Bruno went from soldier to boss, what did that tell you? When Gotti was made and instantly upped to captain, what did that tell you? I'm sure there are many other examples.

Did Philadelphia or the Gambinos have relative inactivity over the previous 20 years and no longer considered viable by the FBI?

So basically we have a defunct active family here with a boss, underboss, captain and at least a dozen members left, correct? A glorified crew that is working closely with the Bonannos and some factions in Ontario and Montreal. Sounds pretty interesting to me.

Collect all the Buffalo articles and OTremens indictment now, print them out, and put them in a scrapbook while you can.