Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[SonnyBlackstein]

Because the issue in dispute is the overall state of the Buffalo LCN family. The FBI is going to know more than anyone about that.

Agreed. Especially.... than the underboss of the Buffalo family.



Yawn.

[Dwalin2014]

While I don't want to take sides in the argument about the Buffalo family and whether it's still active or not etc, but I would like to ask a question to Wiseguy, just to make some things more clear for me about his position in this matter:

If you think the FBI is always right about everything pertaining to organized crime, then do you think they were right even in that historical period when they claimed there was no mafia in the USA? Before Apalachin, Hoover outright denied its existence, didn't he?

I admit that I am not in a position to know about the mafia situation in Buffalo, but I would like to understand why do you think the FBI could never, ever make a genuine mistake or hide the information.

[gohnjotti]

Wiseguy, here is the part I don't understand. The FBI and the RCMP were doing what the FBI called "parallel but separate investigations" that led to the US indictment of Bonanno acting capo Damiano Zummo and others, based on the work of RCMP informer and Bonanno soldier Enzo Morena. On the Canadian side, the RCMP's investigation, which (again) was based on the undercover work of Enzo Morena, concluded with the arrests of Violi.

Enzo Morena was a Bonanno soldier whose information was being used to form cases against both US mobsters for the FBI, and Canadian mobsters for the RCMP. I fail to see how (or why) his tapes with Violi were overlooked/ignored by the FBI, but used in court papers by the RCMP. The tapes I'm talking about are the ones in which Violi describes to Morena his promotion to underboss, the "30 guys" comments. Canadian prosecutors, in court, also introduced further evidence regarding a Florida meeting between Violi & Buffalo boss Joseph Todaro. Prosecutors also alleged that the family began to re-organize in 2014 and that Violi's promotion to underboss was approved by select mobsters on the Commission in New York, as was described in the National Post (IIRC).

Now, I know you've criticized the National Post as a tabloid, Wiseguy, akin to the Daily Mail. But I don't think you have gone as far to allege that the National Post purposely lied in their articles covering Violi's arrest about obscure Buffalo mafia information that the average Canadian wouldn't even know. I mean, is that your contention? That the National Post searched the web for Mafia figures like Leonard Falzone and John Zancocchio, and made up false quotes from prosecutors?

And if the National Post is true, and prosecutors actually said those things in court, then who is at fault? Are prosecutors lying? Is Morena lying? Is Violi lying?

Or, maybe the Buffalo News is wrong. The Federal Bureau of Investigation - as an entity - has never explicitly denied the existence of the Buffalo Mafia in the wake of the 2017 indictments. The FORMER FBI agents and prosecutors interviewed in the Buffalo News article bemoaning the death of the Buffalo Mafia were most likely not informed about Enzo Morena's cooperation because, naturally, cooperators' identities and the information they give is normally kept confidential until we have, for example, an indictment.

In fact, that might just be the main point that is the source of the confusion. Nobody interviewed in the Buffalo News articles bemoaning the death of the Buffalo mob were active investigators. The information & tapes regarding Morena, the Buffalo Mafia, and the "30 guys" thing, were naturally not shared with the FORMER prosecutors and FBI agents interviewed in the article.

If you can find an actual ongoing investigator or agent in those articles, or an actual FBI spokesman, then let me know cos it's been awhile since I read the Buffalo News pieces.

[Lupara]

While I don't want to take sides in the argument about the Buffalo family and whether it's still active or not etc, but I would like to ask a question to Wiseguy, just to make some things more clear for me about his position in this matter:

If you think the FBI is always right about everything pertaining to organized crime, then do you think they were right even in that historical period when they claimed there was no mafia in the USA? Before Apalachin, Hoover outright denied its existence, didn't he?

I admit that I am not in a position to know about the mafia situation in Buffalo, but I would like to understand why do you think the FBI could never, ever make a genuine mistake or hide the information.

In WG's defense (even though I think his arrogance in this matter is obnoxious) comparing the FBI under Hoover with the FBI post-1970s is apples and oranges. Hoover was a dictator (besides being a fag) and only looking for his self interests. He had his reasons for not going after the mob so even into the 60s the FBI were in the dark, stil trying to figure out what to do with them. It was an almost completely different organization. Since the mob became their top priority and they started doing their actual job (instead of going after pitty criminals and communists) they made very little serious mistakes (at least that we know of). So they are a safe bet. That being said, good arguments have been made on why this time the situation might actually be different, with the emphasis on might. And the evidence to support it is decent to say the least. Now that leaves a question still unanswered: what is wrong with that? Speculation is alongside research the engine of this forum and it's futile fighting over it. People like to use their creative parts of their brain so stop being an asshole about it.

[Moscone65]

Wiseguy, here is the part I don't understand. The FBI and the RCMP were doing what the FBI called "parallel but separate investigations" that led to the US indictment of Bonanno acting capo Damiano Zummo and others, based on the work of RCMP informer and Bonanno soldier Enzo Morena. On the Canadian side, the RCMP's investigation, which (again) was based on the undercover work of Enzo Morena, concluded with the arrests of Violi.

Enzo Morena was a Bonanno soldier whose information was being used to form cases against both US mobsters for the FBI, and Canadian mobsters for the RCMP. I fail to see how (or why) his tapes with Violi were overlooked/ignored by the FBI, but used in court papers by the RCMP. The tapes I'm talking about are the ones in which Violi describes to Morena his promotion to underboss, the "30 guys" comments. Canadian prosecutors, in court, also introduced further evidence regarding a Florida meeting between Violi & Buffalo boss Joseph Todaro. Prosecutors also alleged that the family began to re-organize in 2014 and that Violi's promotion to underboss was approved by select mobsters on the Commission in New York, as was described in the National Post (IIRC).

Now, I know you've criticized the National Post as a tabloid, Wiseguy, akin to the Daily Mail. But I don't think you have gone as far to allege that the National Post purposely lied in their articles covering Violi's arrest about obscure Buffalo mafia information that the average Canadian wouldn't even know. I mean, is that your contention? That the National Post searched the web for Mafia figures like Leonard Falzone and John Zancocchio, and made up false quotes from prosecutors?

And if the National Post is true, and prosecutors actually said those things in court, then who is at fault? Are prosecutors lying? Is Morena lying? Is Violi lying?

Or, maybe the Buffalo News is wrong. The Federal Bureau of Investigation - as an entity - has never explicitly denied the existence of the Buffalo Mafia in the wake of the 2017 indictments. The FORMER FBI agents and prosecutors interviewed in the Buffalo News article bemoaning the death of the Buffalo Mafia were most likely not informed about Enzo Morena's cooperation because, naturally, cooperators' identities and the information they give is normally kept confidential until we have, for example, an indictment.

In fact, that might just be the main point that is the source of the confusion. Nobody interviewed in the Buffalo News articles bemoaning the death of the Buffalo mob were active investigators. The information & tapes regarding Morena, the Buffalo Mafia, and the "30 guys" thing, were naturally not shared with the FORMER prosecutors and FBI agents interviewed in the article.

If you can find an actual ongoing investigator or agent in those articles, or an actual FBI spokesman, then let me know cos it's been awhile since I read the Buffalo News pieces.

Now that’s a solid argument ^

[gohnjotti]

That theory might explain some parts of the conflicting stories, and is probably the only way to come to the consensus that nobody was lying. The former prosecutors and feds weren’t lying when they were talking to Buffalo News, and the prosecutors weren’t lying when they testified in Canada.

I know where Wiseguy is coming from, but this could be the exception that proves the rule. Wiseguy is arguing that Mafia families cannot rebuild from being defunct, all the while being “under the radar” from the feds. And he’s right. The Buffalo Mafia did not rebuild “under the radar” at all. In 2014, for unknown reasons, remaining members of the Buffalo mob, led by Leonard Falzone, allegedly decided to re-organise the Buffalo mob into a functioning hierarchy for the first time in about a decade. This could’ve been because members who had been busted in the 1990s and 2000s were all out of prison and slowly getting started where they left of, or it could’ve been because of the politics in Canada, and the unique situation that provided to the remaining members in Buffalo and Canada in relation to drug trafficking.

Within three years of this alleged rebuild, the FBI were none the wiser but investigators in Canada quickly honed in on the promotion of Domenico Violi, and were able to put some sort of a halt to this alleged rebuild.

When you look at it like this, the Buffalo mafia isn’t that much different from any other small Mafia family. They are not smarter than all the other families, and they are not anymore “under the radar.” They are most likely among the weakest of the remaining families, and their rackets may have been limited to this prized drug-trafficking route through Buffalo. But whatever the case, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for ex-felon Mafia figures to group together in the pursuit of profit.

[Angelo Santino]

That theory might explain some parts of the conflicting stories, and is probably the only way to come to the consensus that nobody was lying. The former prosecutors and feds weren’t lying when they were talking to Buffalo News, and the prosecutors weren’t lying when they testified in Canada.

I know where Wiseguy is coming from, but this could be the exception that proves the rule. Wiseguy is arguing that Mafia families cannot rebuild from being defunct, all the while being “under the radar” from the feds. And he’s right. The Buffalo Mafia did not rebuild “under the radar” at all. In 2014, for unknown reasons, remaining members of the Buffalo mob, led by Leonard Falzone, allegedly decided to re-organise the Buffalo mob into a functioning hierarchy for the first time in about a decade. This could’ve been because members who had been busted in the 1990s and 2000s were all out of prison and slowly getting started where they left of, or it could’ve been because of the politics in Canada, and the unique situation that provided to the remaining members in Buffalo and Canada in relation to drug trafficking.

Within three years of this alleged rebuild, the FBI were none the wiser but investigators in Canada quickly honed in on the promotion of Domenico Violi, and were able to put some sort of a halt to this alleged rebuild.

When you look at it like this, the Buffalo mafia isn’t that much different from any other small Mafia family. They are not smarter than all the other families, and they are not anymore “under the radar.” They are most likely among the weakest of the remaining families, and their rackets may have been limited to this prized drug-trafficking route through Buffalo. But whatever the case, it’s not out of the realm of possibility for ex-felon Mafia figures to group together in the pursuit of profit.

I think the recent ongoings reconfirm Wiseguy's position that activity and official documentation go hand in hand. Nothing more I can say on the subject that I haven't already before... underboss, captain.. Zanocchio.. its their organization.. D'Elia... yadda yadda.

[Wiseguy]

While I don't want to take sides in the argument about the Buffalo family and whether it's still active or not etc, but I would like to ask a question to Wiseguy, just to make some things more clear for me about his position in this matter:

If you think the FBI is always right about everything pertaining to organized crime, then do you think they were right even in that historical period when they claimed there was no mafia in the USA? Before Apalachin, Hoover outright denied its existence, didn't he?

I admit that I am not in a position to know about the mafia situation in Buffalo, but I would like to understand why do you think the FBI could never, ever make a genuine mistake or hide the information.

First, when I refer to the dependability of FBI intel on the mob, I'm mainly talking about 1980's to the present.

Second, while the FBI isn't infallible, an LCN family continuing to exist and be functioning while the FBI believes it is not, isn't in the realm of possibility in this day and age. The past 20+ years, regardless of some more recent events, only goes to support this.

Third, the FBI has no reason whatsoever to "hide" any information about the existence of any mob family. Not sure why you'd even put that forth as plausible.

Wiseguy, here is the part I don't understand. The FBI and the RCMP were doing what the FBI called "parallel but separate investigations" that led to the US indictment of Bonanno acting capo Damiano Zummo and others, based on the work of RCMP informer and Bonanno soldier Enzo Morena. On the Canadian side, the RCMP's investigation, which (again) was based on the undercover work of Enzo Morena, concluded with the arrests of Violi.

Enzo Morena was a Bonanno soldier whose information was being used to form cases against both US mobsters for the FBI, and Canadian mobsters for the RCMP. I fail to see how (or why) his tapes with Violi were overlooked/ignored by the FBI, but used in court papers by the RCMP. The tapes I'm talking about are the ones in which Violi describes to Morena his promotion to underboss, the "30 guys" comments. Canadian prosecutors, in court, also introduced further evidence regarding a Florida meeting between Violi & Buffalo boss Joseph Todaro. Prosecutors also alleged that the family began to re-organize in 2014 and that Violi's promotion to underboss was approved by select mobsters on the Commission in New York, as was described in the National Post (IIRC).

Now, I know you've criticized the National Post as a tabloid, Wiseguy, akin to the Daily Mail. But I don't think you have gone as far to allege that the National Post purposely lied in their articles covering Violi's arrest about obscure Buffalo mafia information that the average Canadian wouldn't even know. I mean, is that your contention? That the National Post searched the web for Mafia figures like Leonard Falzone and John Zancocchio, and made up false quotes from prosecutors?

And if the National Post is true, and prosecutors actually said those things in court, then who is at fault? Are prosecutors lying? Is Morena lying? Is Violi lying?

Or, maybe the Buffalo News is wrong. The Federal Bureau of Investigation - as an entity - has never explicitly denied the existence of the Buffalo Mafia in the wake of the 2017 indictments. The FORMER FBI agents and prosecutors interviewed in the Buffalo News article bemoaning the death of the Buffalo Mafia were most likely not informed about Enzo Morena's cooperation because, naturally, cooperators' identities and the information they give is normally kept confidential until we have, for example, an indictment.

In fact, that might just be the main point that is the source of the confusion. Nobody interviewed in the Buffalo News articles bemoaning the death of the Buffalo mob were active investigators. The information & tapes regarding Morena, the Buffalo Mafia, and the "30 guys" thing, were naturally not shared with the FORMER prosecutors and FBI agents interviewed in the article.

If you can find an actual ongoing investigator or agent in those articles, or an actual FBI spokesman, then let me know cos it's been awhile since I read the Buffalo News pieces.

As far as the National Post, I think you're confusing me with someone else, as I don't recall ever making any statements about it. I do think some of the Canadian press, including those put forth as authorities, do get caught up in hype and sometimes present their theories as facts.

Anyway, who said the FBI "overlooked/ignored" anything that came from that investigation? Given what they already know, they likely didn't arrive at the same conclusion many here have been so quick to come to. You can talk about only former investigators making comments (not sure why you put it in term of "bemoaning the death" of the family) but have you seen anything from the FBI - "as an entity" - even hint that they still consider the Buffalo LCN a viable family or believe in this reorganization theory? The FBI hasn't made any recent statements about the viability of Pittsburgh or Kansas City either. That shouldn't be taken as reason to believe they still consider those families viable.

I think the recent ongoings reconfirm Wiseguy's position that activity and official documentation go hand in hand. Nothing more I can say on the subject that I haven't already before... underboss, captain.. Zanocchio.. its their organization.. D'Elia... yadda yadda.

And, as I've said, that's a strong argument in a sense. But, that doesn't necessarily give us (as observers) the best view of the state of things. D'Elia in Scranton, Loscalzo in Tampa, or Milano in LA (and whatever was left of their families) could have all been "officially recognized" by the LCN. Holding to this theory, two old guys in some city, who just fart into a couch cushion all day, constitute a family if the mob views them as such.

Buffalo may not be to that point yet but - considering it has only about a dozen known, old members - it's not far off. Of course, I'm not counting their elite unit of ninja-like members operating in the shadows up in Canada. The Buffalo LCN's own Seal Team 6.

[Angelo Santino]

I think the recent ongoings reconfirm Wiseguy's position that activity and official documentation go hand in hand. Nothing more I can say on the subject that I haven't already before... underboss, captain.. Zanocchio.. its their organization.. D'Elia... yadda yadda.

And, as I've said, that's a strong argument in a sense. But, that doesn't necessarily give us (as observers) the best view of the state of things. D'Elia in Scranton, Loscalzo in Tampa, or Milano in LA (and whatever was left of their families) could have all been "officially recognized" by the LCN. Holding to this theory, two old guys in some city, who just fart into a couch cushion all day, constitute a family if the mob views them as such.

Theoretically... yes but in practice, unlikely. This goes into what is classified as retirement within the Mafia. I imagine some would argue retirement means no longer involved in committing crimes but what about those who fall into that description yet remain affiliated with the criminal organization? What would we call someone like Faffy Innarella who's in every current mob photo out of Philly yet is probably not active on the street?

The closest example would be John Tronolone who was inching into semi-retirement mostly in Florida by the 1960's. He was recognized as boss of Cleveland in 85 despite living in Florida for the last 25 years. "Under" him in CL were 1-3 remaining mebmers and an active criminal network of gamblers, bookmakers and drug dealers. Today there's Iacobacci, so called "Acting Boss" and sole member. D'Elia's another example. San Francesco in the 60's etc. All of these examples are groups without an intact hierarchy and instead of managing a structure serve as representatives of an area and as a point man to be contacted in the event something related to Cleveland arises. If someone can't understand the idea of rappresentante and what it entails, then Peanut Tronolone being boss of Cleveland while living in Florida makes little sense.

Buffalo may not be to that point yet but - considering it has only about a dozen known, old members - it's not far off. Of course, I'm not counting their elite unit of ninja-like members operating in the shadows up in Canada. The Buffalo LCN's own Seal Team 6.

Now see, 300 pages ago he was describing it as inactive and extinct and now it's not at that point. Good job, gentlemen! Maybe once this thread gets to 600 we'll get him to agree that maybe Violi was an underboss and 900 that Violi stated 30 made guys. All things in time! Salut.

[Wiseguy]

I imagine some would argue retirement means no longer involved in committing crimes but what about those who fall into that description yet remain affiliated with the criminal organization? What would we call someone like Faffy Innarella who's in every current mob photo out of Philly yet is probably not active on the street?

A made member (I don't know his leve of activity) of a family still considered viable by the FBI (and other mob families).

The closest example would be John Tronolone who was inching into semi-retirement mostly in Florida by the 1960's. He was recognized as boss of Cleveland in 85 despite living in Florida for the last 25 years. "Under" him in CL were 1-3 remaining mebmers and an active criminal network of gamblers, bookmakers and drug dealers. Today there's Iacobacci, so called "Acting Boss" and sole member. D'Elia's another example. San Francesco in the 60's etc. All of these examples are groups without an intact hierarchy and instead of managing a structure serve as representatives of an area and as a point man to be contacted in the event something related to Cleveland arises. If someone can't understand the idea of rappresentante and what it entails, then Peanut Tronolone being boss of Cleveland while living in Florida makes little sense.

I would think having an intact hierarchy would be a part of the very definition of a viable family but that's me (and apparently the FBI). And other mob families still recognizing the position and general mob membership of a guy (or handful of guys) doesn't necessarily shed light on their view of a family as a whole.

Now see, 300 pages ago he was describing it as inactive and extinct and now it's not at that point. Good job, gentlemen! Maybe once this thread gets to 600 we'll get him to agree that maybe Violi was an underboss and 900 that Violi stated 30 made guys. All things in time! Salut.

Whoa, back up. All I said was that Buffalo was not far off from having a dozen old guys to being down to 2 old guys. Nobody has disagreed that Violi is underboss. The dispute is over how significant that is in relation to the family as a whole. And nobody is arguing that he didn't say what he said about 30 made guys. The disupte is whether to take that comment at face value given what other information we have.

[SonnyBlackstein]

Its a question of accepting Violi’s word or the dated position of the FBI (their stance pre Violi’s information coming to light).
In dismissing Violi’s statements you’re simply ignoring evidence to adhere to your narrative.
If evidence changes, so should your position. That’s the only logical response. Dismissing evidence to adhere to your narrative is not.

[TommyNoto]

Wiseguy, here is the part I don't understand. The FBI and the RCMP were doing what the FBI called "parallel but separate investigations" that led to the US indictment of Bonanno acting capo Damiano Zummo and others, based on the work of RCMP informer and Bonanno soldier Enzo Morena. On the Canadian side, the RCMP's investigation, which (again) was based on the undercover work of Enzo Morena, concluded with the arrests of Violi.

Enzo Morena was a Bonanno soldier whose information was being used to form cases against both US mobsters for the FBI, and Canadian mobsters for the RCMP. I fail to see how (or why) his tapes with Violi were overlooked/ignored by the FBI, but used in court papers by the RCMP. The tapes I'm talking about are the ones in which Violi describes to Morena his promotion to underboss, the "30 guys" comments. Canadian prosecutors, in court, also introduced further evidence regarding a Florida meeting between Violi & Buffalo boss Joseph Todaro. Prosecutors also alleged that the family began to re-organize in 2014 and that Violi's promotion to underboss was approved by select mobsters on the Commission in New York, as was described in the National Post (IIRC).

Now, I know you've criticized the National Post as a tabloid, Wiseguy, akin to the Daily Mail. But I don't think you have gone as far to allege that the National Post purposely lied in their articles covering Violi's arrest about obscure Buffalo mafia information that the average Canadian wouldn't even know. I mean, is that your contention? That the National Post searched the web for Mafia figures like Leonard Falzone and John Zancocchio, and made up false quotes from prosecutors?

And if the National Post is true, and prosecutors actually said those things in court, then who is at fault? Are prosecutors lying? Is Morena lying? Is Violi lying?

Or, maybe the Buffalo News is wrong. The Federal Bureau of Investigation - as an entity - has never explicitly denied the existence of the Buffalo Mafia in the wake of the 2017 indictments. The FORMER FBI agents and prosecutors interviewed in the Buffalo News article bemoaning the death of the Buffalo Mafia were most likely not informed about Enzo Morena's cooperation because, naturally, cooperators' identities and the information they give is normally kept confidential until we have, for example, an indictment.

In fact, that might just be the main point that is the source of the confusion. Nobody interviewed in the Buffalo News articles bemoaning the death of the Buffalo mob were active investigators. The information & tapes regarding Morena, the Buffalo Mafia, and the "30 guys" thing, were naturally not shared with the FORMER prosecutors and FBI agents interviewed in the article.

If you can find an actual ongoing investigator or agent in those articles, or an actual FBI spokesman, then let me know cos it's been awhile since I read the Buffalo News pieces.

This exactly++ and what I have been saying as well, the joint RCMP / FBI investigation where the RCMP identified the Todaro family as active family with a hierarchy says it all. Also like B said it doesn’t matter what we think , it’s the mafia that recognizes the Buffalo family , it’s administration to the point of needing NY approval for the UB and having Admin NY reps traveling there on mafia biz.

Actually wise guy you were saying just a couple months ago Buffalo is not viable and no hierarchy so admitting they now have an underboss is certainly a change in your opinion.

[gohnjotti]

Wiseguy, here is the part I don't understand. The FBI and the RCMP were doing what the FBI called "parallel but separate investigations" that led to the US indictment of Bonanno acting capo Damiano Zummo and others, based on the work of RCMP informer and Bonanno soldier Enzo Morena. On the Canadian side, the RCMP's investigation, which (again) was based on the undercover work of Enzo Morena, concluded with the arrests of Violi.

Enzo Morena was a Bonanno soldier whose information was being used to form cases against both US mobsters for the FBI, and Canadian mobsters for the RCMP. I fail to see how (or why) his tapes with Violi were overlooked/ignored by the FBI, but used in court papers by the RCMP. The tapes I'm talking about are the ones in which Violi describes to Morena his promotion to underboss, the "30 guys" comments. Canadian prosecutors, in court, also introduced further evidence regarding a Florida meeting between Violi & Buffalo boss Joseph Todaro. Prosecutors also alleged that the family began to re-organize in 2014 and that Violi's promotion to underboss was approved by select mobsters on the Commission in New York, as was described in the National Post (IIRC).

Now, I know you've criticized the National Post as a tabloid, Wiseguy, akin to the Daily Mail. But I don't think you have gone as far to allege that the National Post purposely lied in their articles covering Violi's arrest about obscure Buffalo mafia information that the average Canadian wouldn't even know. I mean, is that your contention? That the National Post searched the web for Mafia figures like Leonard Falzone and John Zancocchio, and made up false quotes from prosecutors?

And if the National Post is true, and prosecutors actually said those things in court, then who is at fault? Are prosecutors lying? Is Morena lying? Is Violi lying?

Or, maybe the Buffalo News is wrong. The Federal Bureau of Investigation - as an entity - has never explicitly denied the existence of the Buffalo Mafia in the wake of the 2017 indictments. The FORMER FBI agents and prosecutors interviewed in the Buffalo News article bemoaning the death of the Buffalo Mafia were most likely not informed about Enzo Morena's cooperation because, naturally, cooperators' identities and the information they give is normally kept confidential until we have, for example, an indictment.

In fact, that might just be the main point that is the source of the confusion. Nobody interviewed in the Buffalo News articles bemoaning the death of the Buffalo mob were active investigators. The information & tapes regarding Morena, the Buffalo Mafia, and the "30 guys" thing, were naturally not shared with the FORMER prosecutors and FBI agents interviewed in the article.

If you can find an actual ongoing investigator or agent in those articles, or an actual FBI spokesman, then let me know cos it's been awhile since I read the Buffalo News pieces.

As far as the National Post, I think you're confusing me with someone else, as I don't recall ever making any statements about it. I do think some of the Canadian press, including those put forth as authorities, do get caught up in hype and sometimes present their theories as facts.

Anyway, who said the FBI "overlooked/ignored" anything that came from that investigation? Given what they already know, they likely didn't arrive at the same conclusion many here have been so quick to come to. You can talk about only former investigators making comments (not sure why you put it in term of "bemoaning the death" of the family) but have you seen anything from the FBI - "as an entity" - even hint that they still consider the Buffalo LCN a viable family or believe in this reorganization theory? The FBI hasn't made any recent statements about the viability of Pittsburgh or Kansas City either. That shouldn't be taken as reason to believe they still consider those families viable.

I think the recent ongoings reconfirm Wiseguy's position that activity and official documentation go hand in hand. Nothing more I can say on the subject that I haven't already before... underboss, captain.. Zanocchio.. its their organization.. D'Elia... yadda yadda.

And, as I've said, that's a strong argument in a sense. But, that doesn't necessarily give us (as observers) the best view of the state of things. D'Elia in Scranton, Loscalzo in Tampa, or Milano in LA (and whatever was left of their families) could have all been "officially recognized" by the LCN. Holding to this theory, two old guys in some city, who just fart into a couch cushion all day, constitute a family if the mob views them as such.

Buffalo may not be to that point yet but - considering it has only about a dozen known, old members - it's not far off. Of course, I'm not counting their elite unit of ninja-like members operating in the shadows up in Canada. The Buffalo LCN's own Seal Team 6.

Here’s the thing, Wiseguy. You can’t present that argument that “Hey, maybe the Canadian press got a little overexcited.” WG, I’d like you to read this article, if you haven’t already; https://www.google.co.nz/amp/s/national ... -mafia/amp

The article uses RCMP court papers AND wiretaps to establish that the Buffalo Mafia appeared to begin rebuilding in 2014, inducted Violi in 2015, etc.
This is not speculation or theory on behalf of the journalists. For example;
“ It was in October 2017, at a meeting in Florida, that Joseph Todaro Jr., the alleged Buffalo boss, told Violi he had hand-picked him, according to wiretap transcripts and summaries entered as exhibits in pre-trial proceedings.
After Violi recounted story to his friend, the New York mobster leaned in and kissed Violi in a traditional show of respect, the Crown’s evidence claimed. ”

“ Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.” ”

“ The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave. ”

[SonnyBlackstein]

Meh. Canadian hysterical media propaganda.

[TommyNoto]

Meh. Canadian hysterical media propaganda.

Its the size of the drug operation that is very interesting IMO. The Buffalo / Hamilton family seems to be major wholesalers ( likely to Bonnano NY ). How man NY crews are moving 250 kilos of coke, 20K of opiates, 260k pills not to mention the 1000lbs weed. NY is still big into weed but who is arranging 200 kilo shipments today ? And this was just to 1 customer. Factor in the corrupt & ongoing DEA investigation which is still ongoing and tied to IOC in Buffalo and it seems Buffalo has become a major narcotics supplier for NY.


At the conclusion of the investigation the police had seized 6 kilograms of fentanyl, 40 kilograms of cocaine, plus a conspiracy to import over 200 kilograms, 13 kilograms of heroin, 260,000 MDMA & Methamphetamine pills, 3 kilograms of MDA and 3 handguns.