Visiting New Orleans

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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

Let's look at Scarpa as a source since he's a big part of this:

- He lied about murders he committed while informing and the FBI is rumored to have enabled this. A major strike against his credibility, though these particular lies were obviously self-serving and his incentive to cover them up was built in. He did not have the same incentive to lie about other matters unless they pertained to him or people he was close with.

- He was very accurate when relaying organizational info. Without him, we'd have to throw out a substantial amount of our intel on the Colombo Family (and other NYC Families) between the early 1960s and early 1990s. Few researchers have found reason to discount most of his organizational info and much of it can be corroborated.

- When asked to blindly estimate NYC Family sizes, Scarpa's guesses were outrageous. However when he was relaying specific membership totals told to him by others he was accurate. For example, he reported how Colombo did a Family census and the group had 114 members, a number very consistent with other available info. When he was told about the DeCavalcantes he reported they had around 30 members which is close to Sam DeCavalcante's own estimate of between 30 to 40.

- Informants, including Scarpa, sometimes make a distinction between active and inactive members for the purposes of law enforcement who are trying to conduct criminal investigations on members, but in terms of the internal organization there is no evidence Cosa Nostra makes a distinction between active / inactive when discussing membership totals. A member is a member and they all count.

- By 1968, Scarpa was firmly committed to being a full-on FBI informant and part of his life involved keeping track of specific details so that he could tell the FBI. When he was told about New Orleans he was likely aware of the fact that he was going to be reporting this information to the FBI as soon as possible and made a mental note to remember it. This wasn't info he was recalling from the past and he had a knack for detail when he was told specific info. The other information he provided from this 1968 Christmas meeting was accurate, including updates on promotions within other NYC Families.

--

There may have been a margin of error to what Scarpa told the FBI, but my position is not that there were only 5 members and it's impossible for it to be otherwise, but rather this is probably a fairly accurate figure. It is unlikely that New Orleans had 20 members and Scarpa was told 5, while it's reasonable to think they had 6 or 7 and he was told (or remembered) they had 5. However we have yet to see solid evidence of more than 5 members by 1968.

We have a lot of claims from informants that run counter to other available evidence. We absolutely should be looking for other info that counters what Scarpa said, but in this case beyond it not "seeming" right there is little available evidence that can disprove his basic claim.

We can go into "what if" and "maybe there was a mix-up" but we have yet to find anything substantial that runs counter to what he said. The FBI's own independent findings did nothing to counter his claim and it can be argued this supports what he said.
Antiliar wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:46 pm I wouldn't feel calling LaGaipa a confirmed member either. For me he's a suspected member, likely member, probably member, or even possible member.
With LaGaipa, what's important here is he can't be used to support Pecora's potential membership. LaGaipa wasn't a member in the early 1920s and wasn't confirmed by later sources, so his status doesn't tell us anything about Pecora specifically.

With these charts, the idea is to try and apply a universal standard to what is often a very unscientific subject. I'm glad you're providing counterpoint because that helps us figure out what those standards are. I think we do have to make exceptions to the rules in some cases but I'm not sure with NO.
Last edited by B. on Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ryan98366
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Ryan98366 »

To be a fully functioning family:

1. Must have a Boss, Underboss and Consiglieri. A full administration. Any question mark next to an admin name is not good.
2. Must have two Capos minimum. Again, must have more Indians than Chiefs.
3. Must be making new members. A family must be growing. The old saying goes if you are not growing… you are dying.

If you don’t have these 3 things…in my opinion you don’t have a LCN Family.

New Orleans….not a family in the 1960’s.
#Let’s Go Brandon!
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

There's a new contender haha. The "New Orleans wasn't even a Family in 1963" argument.
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Ryan98366
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Ryan98366 »

Ryan98366 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:27 pm To be a fully functioning family:

1. Must have a Boss, Underboss and Consiglieri. A full administration. Any question mark next to an admin name is not good.
2. Must have two Capos minimum. Again, must have more Indians than Chiefs.
3. Must be making new members. A family must be growing. The old saying goes if you are not growing… you are dying.

If you don’t have these 3 things…in my opinion you don’t have a LCN Family.

New Orleans….not a family in the 1960’s.

Using this standard: Philadelphia and Boston are LCN families.

Cleveland, New Oreleans…not families.

Detroit and Chicago are in limbo right now. Are they families? Not sure anymore.
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Ryan98366
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Ryan98366 »

B. wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:28 pm There's a new contender haha. The "New Orleans wasn't even a Family in 1963" argument.
Name the capos in 1963.

Name the members.

Name the making ceremonies.


5 men isn’t a family. That is a glorified crew.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

I don't mean to speak for Angelo but I think one of the reasons for this new series of charts is to highlight the differences between the formal organization vs. their operational network and to use very strict guidelines for making that distinction. The Chicago Family for example is going to look different from the criminal network they preside over and the defacto relationships that informed "power". In San Jose on the other hand there was pretty much just a formal organization that operates like a regional hub for their fraternal society without much of a criminal network at all.

What I see in New Orleans is a barebones formal organization with extremely exclusive membership practices who in turn presided over an operational network that deceives us into thinking there must have been a larger organization behind it. It's not inconsistent with mafia custom, but probably a truer reflection of Cosa Nostra's origins. As the oldest Family they appear to have resisted "Americanization" even 100 years later and managed to stay very close to a Sicilian cosca. I wouldn't have guessed the oldest American Family comprised of lifelong US residents would be called "greaseballs" by NJ Genovese members but a much more traditional philosophy seems to have existed in NO than in other cities.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Ryan98366 »

Using my template…is Buffalo a family in 2023?

Answer: NOPE

Sorry fanboys.

The 5 Families, Philly and Boston (barely) are fully functioning LCN families.

5 soliders, no admin, just a boss and no making ceremonies in a decade mean YOU ARE NOT AN LCN FAMILY NEW ORLEANS IN THE 1960’s. And Buffalo in 2022.

*mic drop*
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Angelo Santino
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Angelo Santino »

You are more than welcome to hold that belief but what the mafia's own members consider to be a family runs counter to what you consider it being. NY and Philly recognized D'Elia as the boss of Scranton, they didn't tell him hes not a boss since he didn't have an admin, captains or even soldiers.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Angelo Santino »

B. wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:40 pm I don't mean to speak for Angelo but I think one of the reasons for this new series of charts is to highlight the differences between the formal organization vs. their operational network and to use very strict guidelines for making that distinction. The Chicago Family for example is going to look different from the criminal network they preside over and the defacto relationships that informed "power". In San Jose on the other hand there was pretty much just a formal organization that operates like a regional hub for their fraternal society without much of a criminal network at all.

What I see in New Orleans is a barebones formal organization with extremely exclusive membership practices who in turn presided over an operational network that deceives us into thinking there must have been a larger organization behind it. It's not inconsistent with mafia custom, but probably a truer reflection of Cosa Nostra's origins. As the oldest Family they appear to have resisted "Americanization" even 100 years later and managed to stay very close to a Sicilian cosca. I wouldn't have guessed the oldest American Family comprised of lifelong US residents would be called "greaseballs" by NJ Genovese members but a much more traditional philosophy seems to have existed in NO than in other cities.
That, is well as what the actual makeup of these groups were. We're finding a lot of new things that were previously unknown. I will take credit for discovering or at least making it public that Caponigro was not collabrian.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

Question that probably got lost in my rambling:

Is the specific number of 5 the core issue here? Is 6-10 reasonable? 20? If so, which names are missing and what evidence supports it?

As for induction ceremonies, a non-member CI said he was offered membership in the 1930s and then again in the 1940s and turned it down both times. Some of these younger guys could have gotten made in the 1940s.

An informant also thought Mario Presta (the odd Calabrian, died 1968 before the December 1968 Colombo meet) and Joe Marcello attended Apalachin and weren't caught. Along with La Stella that is another indication Joe was made but Neil Migliore also attended Apalachin and apparently wasn't made until the 1980s.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Antiliar »

B. wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:59 pm Let's look at Scarpa as a source since he's a big part of this:

There may have been a margin of error to what Scarpa told the FBI, but my position is not that there were only 5 members and it's impossible for it to be otherwise, but rather this is probably a fairly accurate figure. It is unlikely that New Orleans had 20 members and Scarpa was told 5, while it's reasonable to think they had 6 or 7 and he was told (or remembered) they had 5. However we have yet to see solid evidence of more than 5 members by 1968.

We have a lot of claims from informants that run counter to other available evidence. We absolutely should be looking for other info that counters what Scarpa said, but in this case beyond it not "seeming" right there is little available evidence that can disprove his basic claim.

We can go into "what if" and "maybe there was a mix-up" but we have yet to find anything substantial that runs counter to what he said. The FBI's own independent findings did nothing to counter his claim and it can be argued this supports what he said.
I mostly agree with your assessment of Scarpa. I don't have an issue with Scarpa saying that Colombo said there were only five members. As far as I know, he probably said it. My point is that we have to be cognizant that this is a paraphrase of a paraphrase and it's not necessarily verbatim. As I wrote earlier, we don't have the nuance and other contextual information that may have been said. We have to be open that five literal members may not be an accurate interpretation (but it could be - we can't rule out either one). We also can't get inside Colombo's head to ask him what he intended to mean, nor can we verify with anyone from New Orleans. Historical documents are like that.
B. wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:59 pm
Antiliar wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 8:46 pm I wouldn't feel calling LaGaipa a confirmed member either. For me he's a suspected member, likely member, probably member, or even possible member.
With LaGaipa, what's important here is he can't be used to support Pecora's potential membership. LaGaipa wasn't a member in the early 1920s and wasn't confirmed by later sources, so his status doesn't tell us anything about Pecora specifically.

With these charts, the idea is to try and apply a universal standard to what is often a very unscientific subject. I'm glad you're providing counterpoint because that helps us figure out what those standards are.
Regarding LaGaipa, I disagree. His association moves up the probability. I also mentioned Nick Gentile, and there's no question that he was a member. As for Pecora, I think he's NO-2 who said that Sam Guarina asked him to join in the 1930s and Luke Trombatore in the 1940s. He added that Trombatore told him that once he was in, he was in for life. Although not a direct statement, reading between the lines it seems that he may have joined under the latter. His earlier association with LaGaipa and Gentile suggests that he was at least an important associate or a made person at that time (but in light of the Trombatore statement, the former is most likely). The FBI also opened a subject file on Pecora and in it wrote that he took part in a Mafia murder. So when looking at the totality of the evidence pointing to Pecora's membership, it's actually pretty high. But it's not Nick Calabrese testifying in court high. It's relatively high.

As for a universal standard, I think good detective methods while recognizing historical context and the different limitations that we're faced with are what we have to use. It's the basic rules of hermeneutics, such as the aforementioned context, using better evidence to help interpret weaker evidence, ask who the original intended audience was, the quality and quantity of the evidence, etc.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by Antiliar »

Here's a list from the FBN:
FBN Louisiana Mafia Suspects list p1.jpg
FBN Louisiana Mafia Suspects list p2.jpg
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

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Ryan98366 wrote: Mon Aug 29, 2022 9:27 pm To be a fully functioning family:

1. Must have a Boss, Underboss and Consiglieri. A full administration. Any question mark next to an admin name is not good.
2. Must have two Capos minimum. Again, must have more Indians than Chiefs.
3. Must be making new members. A family must be growing. The old saying goes if you are not growing… you are dying.

If you don’t have these 3 things…in my opinion you don’t have a LCN Family.

New Orleans….not a family in the 1960’s.
Why two capos minimum? Why not three?

A 7 member family with B/U/C and 4 soldiers would have more “Indians” than “Chiefs”. Why wouldn’t that count? Is there a specific Indian/Chief ratio that must be met for viability?

Most of the families in Agrigento province in Sicily may have fewer made members than Detroit or Chicago today. Are they not “fully functional” families? Many of them presumably don’t have captains, as they don’t seem to have enough members to warrant multiple crews. Italian LE charts for some of those families, the ones where I’ve seen charts, don’t have consiglieri listed. Just B/U and a handful of known soldati. Is the mafia a dead institution in Agrigento? If those families have always operated like that, was there ever even a mafia there?
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

Thanks for sharing the FBN list again.

I think the best approach is a "Confirmed Members" section with a note about the Scarpa/Colombo info, then a "Possible Members / Key Associates" section below. We know the FBN struggled with member vs. associate in that era, but I think any of those guys still living in 1963 deserve inclusion as "Possible Members / Key Associates".

Whatever the true size was, I agree with CC it's going to be a more interesting chart if we see the backgrounds of key people beyond those who are confirmed.
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Re: Visiting New Orleans

Post by B. »

Interesting report with all this in mind:

Image

- From April 1968, before they announced to NYC they were making new members.

- Second paragraph about proposed members being as important as made members sheds light on the "suspected members" lists from this era.
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