Justifiable Rats.

[maxiestern11]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.

Riina and the Corleonese were like “terrorists” against their fellow mafiosi in that they respected no one, and committed mass killings across Sicily, bombing, torture, etc., and tried their best to subject the other families and mafiosi from other towns and districts into subservience..... creating such fear and havoc that sometimes brother went against brother, compare against compare, just in hopes of “surviving” their campaign of terror! Horrible!
-
As an example, the Buccellato Family (both the Cosca and personal Family members) of Castellammare del Golfo, were slaughtered, one by one, until there was no one left in that town of any prominence and influence.
-
The Corleonese then installed their own “puppet” leader as “representante”, almost completely “enslaving” or subjugating their Cosca membership! They repeated this technique across the Island..... by the time the smoke cleared, hundreds if not several thousand had perished at the hands of Riina and his followers.
-
THIS is what Buscetta faced. He was not alone! Tano Badalamenti, Stefano Bontate and all the other decades long bosses across Sicily were often blindsided, ambushed or lulled into complacency, then eliminated. As Riina became more powerful, it was impossible to fight him.
Even established mafiosi could not trust or conspire with their “compare” for fear of betrayal.... so Buscetta, Badalamenti and others either died or fled to other countries; Germany, Argentina, Canada, America..... etc.,
-
THIS for me, is one of, if not the prime reason for the “breaking” of the Sicilian Mafia. Even the State, which had always conspired with the Cupola, backed up amid worldwide embarrassment and LE pressure after the public bombing campaigns and massive slaughter that ensued! ...... they had had enough!!!
-
The ultimate result, was that even after Riina and the Corleonese had been jailed and finished, towns like Castellammare del Golfo became headed by “third string”
(Not even second-string) leaders. Without the historical knowledge, knowhow, connections and entrenched rackets.... and a much more hardened (LE) Carabiniere and state attitude against the Mafiosi because of all the state terror previously perpetrated against Italy..... that today these families are a shadow of their former selves!
-
And I guess the same could be said of the American CN as well for much of the very same reasons minus the bombings and terror against the government

[Dwalin2014]

As an example, the Buccellato Family (both the Cosca and personal Family members) of Castellammare del Golfo, were slaughtered, one by one, until there was no one left in that town of any prominence and influence.

Speaking about the Buccellato family, I read in the book "Gli uomini del disonore" ("Men of dishonor") by Pino Arlacchi, that initially Nicola Buccellato was a Corleonese ally: when in 1975 the regional commission members were electing a chairman, Buccellato voted for Bernardo Provenzano, even though Provenzano wasn't even a commission member, but he voted for him anyway, to send a message that the Corleonesi were getting more powerful. And after that, they "thanked" Nicola Buccellato by exterminating his family. Some "gratitude" by Riina...

[maxiestern11]

As an example, the Buccellato Family (both the Cosca and personal Family members) of Castellammare del Golfo, were slaughtered, one by one, until there was no one left in that town of any prominence and influence.

Speaking about the Buccellato family, I read in the book "Gli uomini del disonore" ("Men of dishonor") by Pino Arlacchi, that initially Nicola Buccellato was a Corleonese ally: when in 1975 the regional commission members were electing a chairman, Buccellato voted for Bernardo Provenzano, even though Provenzano wasn't even a commission member, but he voted for him anyway, to send a message that the Corleonesi were getting more powerful. And after that, they "thanked" Nicola Buccellato by exterminating his family. Some "gratitude" by Riina...

Yep..... they were bad bad guys! NO honor and clearly very greedy!
Look what it got them! - ZERO -
In the meantime, they killed many.... (and as you say and I agree - all the Buccellato’s) who were leaders in that town with the Minore’s and several other families for many years. Castellammare was a very well organized and cohesive town with many “man of honor” who got along together before Riina stuck a “wedge” Between them and caused the taking of “sides” for fear of him.
-

[bert]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.

The rat is always in the right, and everyone else is a terrorist. It's one of the better excuses, still a fake one by Buscetta.

[Dwalin2014]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.

The rat is always in the right, and everyone else is a terrorist. It's one of the better excuses, still a fake one by Buscetta.

Do you mean Riina was NOT a terrorist? Do you know what he did when he was in charge and what he did to come to power? Compared to American mobsters, he was even crazier than Casso or Roy DeMeo.

[motorfab]

Riina was a terrorist. End of story. When you kill a state representative that's what you are.

[motorfab]

And innocents peoples ! A terrorist and a butcher.

[gohnjotti]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Who are you referring to here? If you're referring to Rosalie Castellano, she was not married to a made guy unless her husband Frank was a made Gambino, and there was already a sit-down that took place over that back in 1999. If you're referring to Vincent DeMartino's wife, that was an accusation made by DeMartino back in the mid-1990s and even after he complained up-and-down the crime family to Cutolo and Persico, there was never a formal beef or sit-down because DeMartino never had anything more than a hunch.

[aleksandrored]

Riina was the biggest mafioso of the Sicilian mafia precisely because of the power and fear he caused in people, he did not mind killing women, children and attacking the state, Buscetta could only have retaliated by testifying against the "new" Cosa Nostra, because Cosa Nostra he met was very different from the Cosa Nostra dominated by the Corleones in the 80s / 90s.

There is a theory that Provenzano who helped deliver Riina to the police, because Riina's terrorist attacks were off limits and was hurting everyone, if that is true I don't find Provenzano's attitude justifiable, since he was aware of everything and had agreed so far.

[bert]

If Rinna did all that he was terrible, it still does not mean Buscetta did not live by one rule till it did not benefit him.

[bert]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Who are you referring to here? If you're referring to Rosalie Castellano, she was not married to a made guy unless her husband Frank was a made Gambino, and there was already a sit-down that took place over that back in 1999. If you're referring to Vincent DeMartino's wife, that was an accusation made by DeMartino back in the mid-1990s and even after he complained up-and-down the crime family to Cutolo and Persico, there was never a formal beef or sit-down because DeMartino never had anything more than a hunch.

So he was fucking associates wives, which is also a creep move. And they were told not to kill him, but tried anyway

https://nypost.com/2004/04/28/turncoat- ... ia-spouse/

[gohnjotti]

Joseph Campanella was 100% justifiable.

Not really, the guys who tried to kill him had been told by the mob not to but tried anyway. He then turned rat even though the Columbo would have backed him. He was also messing with the wife of made guy, that may have been coming out and led him to rat also. Still not justified at all.

Who are you referring to here? If you're referring to Rosalie Castellano, she was not married to a made guy unless her husband Frank was a made Gambino, and there was already a sit-down that took place over that back in 1999. If you're referring to Vincent DeMartino's wife, that was an accusation made by DeMartino back in the mid-1990s and even after he complained up-and-down the crime family to Cutolo and Persico, there was never a formal beef or sit-down because DeMartino never had anything more than a hunch.

So he was fucking associates wives, which is also a creep move. And they were told not to kill him, but tried anyway

https://nypost.com/2004/04/28/turncoat- ... ia-spouse/

My point is, if there was any validity to Campanella fucking DeMartino’s wife, Cutolo OR Persico both would have taken it seriously when DeMartino first brought it to their attention in the mid-1990s.

[Strax]

If Rinna did all that he was terrible, it still does not mean Buscetta did not live by one rule till it did not benefit him.

Riina was just someone who did dirty work , you really think he was capable alone of killing Falcone and so on , he just did dirty work that secret services/freemasonry told him to do, after his arrest , someone gave order to the police to stop surveillance of his house , after few hours when they came back , nothing was left in the house , someone got in and took all evidence out. Same goes with Matteo Messina Denaro , there is no way he can hide for that long on small island as Sicily is , without support of politicians/freemasonry/secret services , right now several high ranking members of main freemasonry lodge are under investigation.

And about the topic, i would say its justifiable if they turn themselves in and starts ratting , usually they just don't want to do time.If you live that life you be a man and face consequences. If they don't get caught,they would probably never rat.

[CabriniGreen]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.

Riina and the Corleonese were like “terrorists” against their fellow mafiosi in that they respected no one, and committed mass killings across Sicily, bombing, torture, etc., and tried their best to subject the other families and mafiosi from other towns and districts into subservience..... creating such fear and havoc that sometimes brother went against brother, compare against compare, just in hopes of “surviving” their campaign of terror! Horrible!
-
As an example, the Buccellato Family (both the Cosca and personal Family members) of Castellammare del Golfo, were slaughtered, one by one, until there was no one left in that town of any prominence and influence.
-
The Corleonese then installed their own “puppet” leader as “representante”, almost completely “enslaving” or subjugating their Cosca membership! They repeated this technique across the Island..... by the time the smoke cleared, hundreds if not several thousand had perished at the hands of Riina and his followers.
-
THIS is what Buscetta faced. He was not alone! Tano Badalamenti, Stefano Bontate and all the other decades long bosses across Sicily were often blindsided, ambushed or lulled into complacency, then eliminated. As Riina became more powerful, it was impossible to fight him.
Even established mafiosi could not trust or conspire with their “compare” for fear of betrayal.... so Buscetta, Badalamenti and others either died or fled to other countries; Germany, Argentina, Canada, America..... etc.,
-
THIS for me, is one of, if not the prime reason for the “breaking” of the Sicilian Mafia. Even the State, which had always conspired with the Cupola, backed up amid worldwide embarrassment and LE pressure after the public bombing campaigns and massive slaughter that ensued! ...... they had had enough!!!
-
The ultimate result, was that even after Riina and the Corleonese had been jailed and finished, towns like Castellammare del Golfo became headed by “third string”
(Not even second-string) leaders. Without the historical knowledge, knowhow, connections and entrenched rackets.... and a much more hardened (LE) Carabiniere and state attitude against the Mafiosi because of all the state terror previously perpetrated against Italy..... that today these families are a shadow of their former selves!
-
And I guess the same could be said of the American CN as well for much of the very same reasons minus the bombings and terror against the government

I gotta say, I agree wholeheartedly..... I mean some people think Riina was a good boss... but to me he belonged in something like the Red Brigades, or some terrorist organization.

It's why the Inzerillos are so valuable and courted to this very day in Sicily. The concentration of wealth, experience and contacts, they found out later was IRREPLACEABLE!!

[maxiestern11]

Tommaso Buscetta was justified by out standards, if he went by the ones he lived by he was supposed to kill the people who killed his people, or retire and accept it. I know it makes no sense to us, but he lived by that code, or was supposed to. I wonder how they view what he did in Sicilian Mafia circles?

He had no "firepower" or allies to take revenge by that time. Testifying was the only thing he could to to harm the killers of his family; if he retired and accepted it, that would mean he didn't care about his family. If he had enough "soldiers", he would likely have tried to retaliate, but by that time almost all his allies were killed, he had no means to take revenge.

It would not mean he did not care about his family, it would mean he accosted it as were the rules he lived by up till then. No way he did not care about his family (I assume)

By then, all the rules of the "old" mafia (if there really were any) in Sicily were fucked up by Riina and his gang of "terrorists" who took control over everything. Buscetta never rejected the idea of the old-fashioned "traditional" mafia, but Riina and company weren't "mafia" anymore by those standards, they broke every possible rule themselves. Buscetta broke 1 rule (informing), but they broke countless other rules of the mafia, they turned the organization into something it wasn't before. At least, that's how I understand Buscetta's reasoning.

Riina and the Corleonese were like “terrorists” against their fellow mafiosi in that they respected no one, and committed mass killings across Sicily, bombing, torture, etc., and tried their best to subject the other families and mafiosi from other towns and districts into subservience..... creating such fear and havoc that sometimes brother went against brother, compare against compare, just in hopes of “surviving” their campaign of terror! Horrible!
-
As an example, the Buccellato Family (both the Cosca and personal Family members) of Castellammare del Golfo, were slaughtered, one by one, until there was no one left in that town of any prominence and influence.
-
The Corleonese then installed their own “puppet” leader as “representante”, almost completely “enslaving” or subjugating their Cosca membership! They repeated this technique across the Island..... by the time the smoke cleared, hundreds if not several thousand had perished at the hands of Riina and his followers.
-
THIS is what Buscetta faced. He was not alone! Tano Badalamenti, Stefano Bontate and all the other decades long bosses across Sicily were often blindsided, ambushed or lulled into complacency, then eliminated. As Riina became more powerful, it was impossible to fight him.
Even established mafiosi could not trust or conspire with their “compare” for fear of betrayal.... so Buscetta, Badalamenti and others either died or fled to other countries; Germany, Argentina, Canada, America..... etc.,
-
THIS for me, is one of, if not the prime reason for the “breaking” of the Sicilian Mafia. Even the State, which had always conspired with the Cupola, backed up amid worldwide embarrassment and LE pressure after the public bombing campaigns and massive slaughter that ensued! ...... they had had enough!!!
-
The ultimate result, was that even after Riina and the Corleonese had been jailed and finished, towns like Castellammare del Golfo became headed by “third string”
(Not even second-string) leaders. Without the historical knowledge, knowhow, connections and entrenched rackets.... and a much more hardened (LE) Carabiniere and state attitude against the Mafiosi because of all the state terror previously perpetrated against Italy..... that today these families are a shadow of their former selves!
-
And I guess the same could be said of the American CN as well for much of the very same reasons minus the bombings and terror against the government

I gotta say, I agree wholeheartedly..... I mean some people think Riina was a good boss... but to me he belonged in something like the Red Brigades, or some terrorist organization.

It's why the Inzerillos are so valuable and courted to this very day in Sicily. The concentration of wealth, experience and contacts, they found out later was IRREPLACEABLE!!

Agreed!.... stability and peace is what makes and keeps Cosa Nostra strong!.....