The Cicale Files

[Sol]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

[East Bronx]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

On the money.

I swear to God, out of the mouths of Samoans . . . .

And I'll have you know it took me three hours to find Happy New Year in your native tongue, you hump .

[Sol]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

On the money.

I swear to God, out of the mouths of Samoans . . . .

And I'll have you know it took me three hours to find Happy New Year in your native tongue, you hump .

LOL, not an easy language to google..........Soliai

[Angelo Santino]

All I see our two conflicting sources, who's really to say what aspects of each tale is true without further info?

My problem with T6F is that it reads like every move the Rizzutos ever made since 1965 is some Machiavellian plot. And then the authors' predictions of the Rizzutos without Vito was dead wrong. I'm sure the authors did the homework, but think about this: someone writing a book on Joe Massino in 2000 and another in 2004 would read very differently. Remembers the days when Joe Massino "got the Bonannos their seat back on the commission" and how secretive and successful "the last don" was and how, with his brother-in-law as Under seemed well insulated. Four years later an entirely different picture emerged.

From all accounts, it looks the Bonannos/Rizzutos maintained ties past Massino/Rizzuto so Cicale seems more accurate in this instance or on that particular subject. But "seems" is subjective.

With Cicale, or any informant for that matter, nothing's ever a 100% truth or lie. That's why authors need to verify.

[East Bronx]

With Cicale, or any informant for that matter, nothing's ever a 100% truth or lie. That's why authors need to verify.

Okay, gun to your head. Did Leiber properly vet Cicale's claims? (and this is a legitimate question, so I don't think it belongs in the mattress/graveyard)

[Sol]

I hope Ed weighs in, its always better to hear straight from the horse mouth. It would be nice to hear his point of view.......Soliai

[Pogo The Clown]

Doesn't this info by Cicale contradict Sal Vitale's info? Vitale claimed that the Rizzutos stopped kicking up and broke off ties after Sciascia was kiled in 1999.


Pogo

[East Bronx]

Doesn't this info by Cicale contradict Sal Vitale's info? Vitale claimed that the Rizzutos stopped kicking up and broke off ties after Sciascia was kiled in 1999.


Pogo

Juts goes right back to my point about which rat do you believe. I'm honestly surprised that more convictions aren't overturned as a result of these contradictions. And you know I'm no mob apologist. As long as the Feds do things by the book, I don't give a fuck. You play you pay.

[joeycigars]

Dom Ciacle story doesn't seem to far fetched and no one is a 100% right on these things .
Rizzuto was a Bonanno and had world wide connections, NY is the hub of the world and The Bonannos where already in place , For 20- 100 grand a year is nothing for Vito to keep New York in his orbit , Vito dealt drugs in NY ,Vito Killed three Capos for NY, Vito was doing time for New York ,The Rizzuto home base was 30 minutes from New York State , There was more to the picture then just Rizzuto Power lust cutting ties ...there was a Family tie that Vito keep or at least tried to keep with out burning the whole bridge .And you can bet Vito had reasons to keep NY in the fold , Why not ? 100Gs a year is a drop in the bucket for that Family, When Vito was alive I would say the Rizzutos where a distant Bonanno satellite crew not a separate family , However could not be controlled by New York and thats the way they liked it ,

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think its a huge call to say Vito still kicked up post Massino flipping.

The Montreal cell's links were tenuous/strained at best (if maintained at all) post Sciascia's clipping.

Following this Massino, Vitale, Lino, Coppa, etc all flipped (and resulting in Vito's direct conviction).

To believe that Vito kicked up post this is very very hard to comprehend.

[joeycigars]

I think its a huge call to say Vito still kicked up post Massino flipping.

The Montreal cell's links were tenuous/strained at best (if maintained at all) post Sciascia's clipping.

Following this Massino, Vitale, Lino, Coppa, etc all flipped (and resulting in Vito's direct conviction).

To believe that Vito kicked up post this is very very hard to comprehend.

Guys flip all the time and the people that get convicted go right back in the fold of the family thats what LCN made guys do .
Its not hard to Believe from a criminals mind stand point ,Vito did a lot of dirt with the NY crews and could use them in the future, For Vito to keep the peace , pipelines ,and info lines open till he got out of prison to see where the Family stood and what was gonna happen post Massino was very smart move IMO, Why wouldn't he its a hedge bet he could afford,And then there is also a LCN rule there , Walking away is Not to be taken lightly , Vito was a LCN leader and lead by example he did the right thing ,Bottom line Vito was Gangster till his last breath and took the oath serious as Cancer no pun intended

[Angelo Santino]

With Cicale, or any informant for that matter, nothing's ever a 100% truth or lie. That's why authors need to verify.

Okay, gun to your head. Did Leiber properly vet Cicale's claims? (and this is a legitimate question, so I don't think it belongs in the mattress/graveyard)

I hope he did for the sake of his career! If he didn't, the truth will come out soon enough to confirm or deny.

Remember that asshole William Balsamo who fit his grandfather in it as the fucking founder of the whole American mafia who headed the Gambinos and got wet over Vince Mangano and made him boss? You think an author could do that today and get away with it? I probably could but in 5, 6 whatever long years it takes when new info becomes available, I'll be entirely proven a fraud. It's why I'm so anal-retentive about what I put down, one day some portions of my thesis will be discredited, but it will hopefully be clear it's my own educated mistake and not me making things up for whatever reason. It's why I respect Scott Burnstein and Mike Dash even though I disagree with them entire on certain facts/events, they go into projects with the utmost integrity, they are not out to mislead or lie.

Or take the case of Mikey Scambino (who had me laughing about what he did at the time): Wrote an entire book about being Carlo Gambino's grandson and growing up in "The Honored Society." All the while the real grandson was a 16 year old high school student. But the guy WAS convincing, that was the fuck it of. Amazon reviewers were giving it 5 stars and then when it came out it was bullshit, Amazon was grounded on whether to pull it or let it run, they settled on changing it from "true crime" to "fiction."
http://www.amazon.com/The-Honored-Socie ... 0743442792

Even without those examples, authors can be great writers, researchers and still get shit wrong or unknowling glamorize it. This is just me, but it really, REALLY, on some obsessive level, just burns my ass right up the entire anal passage when I read things like "the Buffalo Don" or "he was made Godfather." I read a passage like that and my hands shake!

If I was a laborer from e106 in 1910 and ran into East Bronx on e114 or Hoffman in the bronx, he's Cosentino so would probably be in the ice business. Two wage earning immigrants over the age of 30 (middle aged in those days). If we met and didn't NOT like each other, he's gonna call me Don Chris and me-him Don East when we see each other, it was an old world term of comraderie used infrequently to show respect. Similar to 'Mister.' . But the only time someone was EVER called Don alongside his last name was in GF. Real life it was don Carlo, don Vito (lower case d). Never Don Gambino or Don Genovese... Same thing with 'Godfather', never used. That came out of the padrone system of "I sponsor you for citizenship, you give me free fucking labor!" ... An author I respect continues to use these terms even after I explained this and referred him to sources for validation. But maybe he uses it for marketing or maybe the mob isn't the mob to him without these terms. I don't know.

These terms of endearment are obsolete and have been for some time. No one's calling anyone Don anymore and when they did, half the members were called don in front of their name, it wasn't reserved for the head of a family. And (MIS)using terms like or throwing them around shows a lack of insight. I doubt there's been a single leader in the last 30 years to have been called either with a straight face. It would be like me making a Wire chart and listing Marlo Stanfield or Avon Barksdale as "Top Homie" or "Head OG." Shows a lack of understanding from my end.

But one interesting tidbit.. Back in 1903 Informant La Cava was trying to ingrate himself with Morello, Pecoraro, Pete Inzerillo, Cascio Ferro and either Sal Brancato or maybe Piddy Boscarino. He reported back that between themselves (not him) they called each other Godfather. English to Ital he referring to compari. But Antiliar and I joked that maybe Puzo was ahead of his time. But compari is another term used in mob lingo, it's where goomba came from. In Sicilian culture before the mafia bastardized the meaning, compari had to do with being a godfather to one's child, if the parents died, the child's godfather in time of old became the legal guardian. But it also signified a deep, unbreaking bond between the father and godfather. It's rooted in Catholicism so most of you should be familiar with it.... But again, this is a bygone era. We might as well discuss when the iceman delivered blocks of ice to peoples' homes to keep their food cold or when we had milkman or blockbuster video for that matter.

[Rocco]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

I believe there was an article when the Old Man Nick was alive where he stated that he didn't want to deal with Vinny because he was tied to Massino who appointed him and MAssino was a rat. Nick didn't want to deal with anyone tied to Massino because he was a rat. Cicale really stretches it thin with these claims.

[Angelo Santino]

I don't believe that the Rizzutos where the most powerful family in north America, but I definitely believe they were more powerful then the Bonannos, even when Massino was in his prime. And there's no way in hell I believe cicale when he said vinny told vito to step it up and vito sent him a 100k. Vito would have told vinny to suck a dick, what was vinny going to do send assassins to canada...lol........Soliai

I believe there was an article when the Old Man Nick was alive where he stated that he didn't want to deal with Vinny because he was tied to Massino who appointed him and MAssino was a rat. Nick didn't want to deal with anyone tied to Massino because he was a rat. Cicale really stretches it thin with these claims.

I see both points being made. But what other time has a crew broken off and a Family allowed it? To allow such a thing, would have deeper ramifications for the Bonanno family itself not to mention the Mafia as a whole. Vito Rizzuto the criminal was a powerful man, but rules are rules and he and his father were operating under the Bonanno banner. To allow that is saying anyone can break off and operate independent. Even if you're part of another Family, to allow or go along with such a move goes against everything. In America, in Sicily, Canada, whatever. "The money comes up." No one, not even the Rizzutos, can buck that system. For them to be recognized as independent they would have had to have done it "legally" and maybe Massino flipping gave them the precedent they needed. But if that happened they got gangbanged afterward, either they lost their Bonanno "protection" and the wolves (incl. Montagna) came or Montagna delivered the Bonanno message.

Something happened between these two groups, I don't think one side is all right or wrong.

I evolved on this, remember when Montagna was deported my opinion at the time was that he was "a man without a family." I was wrong.

[toto]

There's one other point to remember - anybody who wants to operate in New York has to have an okay from New York families. By anyone I mean, Sicilian, Calabrian families etc. This is why Rizzuto becomes nobody if he breaks away but he has a lot of power if he is the bridge to New York. This is why John Gambino is so important now because he can make introductions and smooth things over with other families and he has enough power and clout in his own family.

The whole rebel scenario is well known in Italy and the name for them is stiddari and they are not supposed to deal with them. So if Rizzuto had decided to go his own way this is what he would have become. This is why I never believed the Six Family type stories.