Early NY questions without answers.

[B.]

Very interesting info on the early structure/ranks. Thanks for that.

- Is there any truth to what Valachi said about the books being closed for around 20 years before the late 1920s? This can't be 100% true, but maybe the books were very rarely opened before that point... hell, possibly because they had fewer elderly members dying. Jack Dragna told Jimmy Fratianno he was made in 1914, but that was the year Dragna returned to the US from Sicily so he could have been made in Corleone.

It's ludicrous. By 1920 insiders estimated NYC membership to be 2-3000 total. I find that to be far too high but it still tells us there were alot... by 1920.

I know there are examples of guys getting made in NYC between 1910-1928 and if even the low NYC membership estimate you posted is accurate, it suggests families were at their peak size by 1920, but like some otherwise ludicrous info we've come across from otherwise reliable sources (i.e. D'Arco's "Lucchese family split off from the first family in Jersey"), I try to look at it less as flat-out nonsense and more like info that is heavily "distorted" but not necessarily 100% wrong. Was Valachi pulling that info from his ass, or did he hear something about the families closing the books for extended periods 1910-1928 and making members very selectively during short "open" periods, but over the years he or whoever told him distorted the info and it became "the books were completely closed"?

Like I've said before, if we weren't familiar with the ebb and flow of the mafia's recruitment practices and the politics involved, it would sound ridiculous that this large, powerful organization would have kept their books closed for almost 15 years 1931 to mid-1940s, close them again, open them for a few years in the 1950s, and then close them for another 20 years. Just like the Castellammarese War not being quite the revolutionary event it's made out to be and there being earlier wars that set the precedent for changes (and things NOT changing), it seems possible to me that closing the books for long periods was not something they necessarily decided to do for the first time in 1931; there may have been precedent for doing this earlier even if Valachi's info on it was mostly or partially incorrect. He still had that idea in his head from somewhere and though Valachi is not a perfect source, he doesn't have any motivation for deliberately sharing misinformation on that subject.

Like otherwise ridiculous sounding info, I feel it has to enter into the conversation given the source it comes from even if it's a misinterpretation of real events. It's like Santantonio or Scarpa giving insanely high estimates for the Gambino family's size/captains in the 1960s -- they are wrong, but you can interpret that info as "The Gambino family had an overwhelming presence in Brooklyn to the point where members operating in that area felt there were exponentially more Gambino members than there were." In this case, I see Valachi's info as, "The families were probably very selective about who and when they inducted members in NYC ~1910-1928 and then they opened the floodgates around the time of the Castellammarese War, only to repeat a similar pattern 1931-1957."

- When and how did the families get connected to areas outside of the immediate NYC area? The Gambinos and Connecticut, Baltimore, and Trenton; DeCavalcantes and Connecticut; Genovese and Springfield. CT isn't that far from CT, but why did those two families have crews there and not others, and why did the DeCavs have an underboss and captain there over relatively few members? I also wonder how early the NY families started branching out into FL. There was a family in Tampa and we know members like the Arcuris had bounced between both FL and NY, but curious when the families officially had a presence with members, crews, etc. in south FL.

Chain migration, America is 3000 miles to Sicily's 200 and the mafia was an exclusive society with a culture of mingling with each other. We've read about Vincenzo Troia, Salvatore Maranzano, Salvatore D'Aquila and Al Mineo from the American perspective. But then when you read things from the Sicilian side, from Allegra, Calderone, San Giorgi etc: Troia was heavily involved with the Palermitan Mafia as was Maranzano who was there in the 1920's. Not to mention that during the 1920's Palermo war these men were involved in mediating and D'Aquila even sent money to Palermo from NYC, and also during this time, Al Mineo's brother in law was a boss of one of these Families and arrived with him to America a decade prior. This was all within a 10 mile radius of Palermo, these men all appeared to know each other and have history. And yet 9 years later Maranzano plotted against Troia when people suggested him for BOB.

Not sure this would apply to all of the satellite crews I'm talking about. Chain migration could explain some of it, especially since we can't be sure who the earliest members were in different satellite crews, but in some of these crews there is no info suggesting a connection through villages, regions, or any other obvious line connecting them to an NY family. With Baltimore for example, the easy answer could be that the Palermitano Morici and/or his predecessors were part of the D'Aquila/Mangano family or network and then recruited local non-Palermitani in Baltimore to form that decina, but other groups don't even have that much to speculate on.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Angelo Santino]

Most members worked legitimate jobs ranging from cart handler to dock worker to saloons, carriages, horse feed, plaster, contracting, ice, shoe businesses etc...

If I wanted to work I could get a job at Wendy's.


Did those legit members have to kick up a piece of their earnings to the leaders or was the whole "kicking up" concept more of a byproduct of the organizations development into more of a total criminal operation? Thanks.


Pogo

You know I'm not really sure. But it came out in another source that the Mafia in Monreale required members to pay a monthly 25 to 50 centesimi to their capodecine, before 1900. I think a similar monthly stipend is likely in the beginning but then at some point became more about trickle up economics. It's never been done in uniform: some crews require a weekly set amount and others had it by a percentage of proceeds, with others it was per individual 'score.'

[B.]

About employment/economic opportunities...

Remember that the world was a much more brutal place and entire groups of people could be ruined or displaced by events beyond their control (think of the Irish potato famine), with "jobs" as we know them today being a relatively new idea to people who had agrigultural backgrounds or otherwise labored for sustenance with few opportunities for profit. This idea of "working a legit job" being some sign of failure as a mafioso is a modern invention like CC said, and it's been furthered by the media, shows, and movies.

I would describe the mafia from its earliest days to present as an organization dedicated to taking advantage of every situation available to them, whether it's criminal or not. To mafia members/associates from Sicily, who ran the spectrum of economic backgrounds, having consistent employment with dependable pay, especially in a business or industry that was influenced by their own relatives/paesani/Sicilians was a major luxury that many people in Sicily or even the world didn't have. Owning a store or company was a step up from that and sort of a half-way point between being a laborer and having the chance to mingle, do illegal business, etc. during the day, as mafia-owned stores and offices became hangouts.

Of course these guys didn't want to spend their lives in the fields or docks, but they didn't necessarily see it as "I'm just an ordinary schmoe workin' a 9-5, I suck at being a gangster" given what the world was like then. It's sort of like when we hear about teenagers being made in Sicily and the US back then -- it's not like they were inducting kids who would otherwise be running around playing Pokemon... these were little men who were much older for their years back then. The world was a tough place and people were less entitled, even mafia members.

[Angelo Santino]

- Is there any truth to what Valachi said about the books being closed for around 20 years before the late 1920s? This can't be 100% true, but maybe the books were very rarely opened before that point... hell, possibly because they had fewer elderly members dying. Jack Dragna told Jimmy Fratianno he was made in 1914, but that was the year Dragna returned to the US from Sicily so he could have been made in Corleone.

It's ludicrous. By 1920 insiders estimated NYC membership to be 2-3000 total. I find that to be far too high but it still tells us there were alot... by 1920.

I know there are examples of guys getting made in NYC between 1910-1928 and if even the low NYC membership estimate you posted is accurate, it suggests families were at their peak size by 1920, but like some otherwise ludicrous info we've come across from otherwise reliable sources (i.e. D'Arco's "Lucchese family split off from the first family in Jersey"), I try to look at it less as flat-out nonsense and more like info that is heavily "distorted" but not necessarily 100% wrong. Was Valachi pulling that info from his ass, or did he hear something about the families closing the books for extended periods 1910-1928 and making members very selectively during short "open" periods, but over the years he or whoever told him distorted the info and it became "the books were completely closed"?

Like I've said before, if we weren't familiar with the ebb and flow of the mafia's recruitment practices and the politics involved, it would sound ridiculous that this large, powerful organization would have kept their books closed for almost 15 years 1931 to mid-1940s, close them again, open them for a few years in the 1950s, and then close them for another 20 years. Just like the Castellammarese War not being quite the revolutionary event it's made out to be and there being earlier wars that set the precedent for changes (and things NOT changing), it seems possible to me that closing the books for long periods was not something they necessarily decided to do for the first time in 1931; there may have been precedent for doing this earlier even if Valachi's info on it was mostly or partially incorrect. He still had that idea in his head from somewhere and though Valachi is not a perfect source, he doesn't have any motivation for deliberately sharing misinformation on that subject.

Like otherwise ridiculous sounding info, I feel it has to enter into the conversation given the source it comes from even if it's a misinterpretation of real events. It's like Santantonio or Scarpa giving insanely high estimates for the Gambino family's size/captains in the 1960s -- they are wrong, but you can interpret that info as "The Gambino family had an overwhelming presence in Brooklyn to the point where members operating in that area felt there were exponentially more Gambino members than there were." In this case, I see Valachi's info as, "The families were probably very selective about who and when they inducted members in NYC ~1910-1928 and then they opened the floodgates around the time of the Castellammarese War, only to repeat a similar pattern 1931-1957."

I know what you mean and I can't really think of anything. Before 1931 we have a few details, such as Clemente reporting in 1912 that if a new member is to join, it must be agreed upon by the other 3 groups.

- When and how did the families get connected to areas outside of the immediate NYC area? The Gambinos and Connecticut, Baltimore, and Trenton; DeCavalcantes and Connecticut; Genovese and Springfield. CT isn't that far from CT, but why did those two families have crews there and not others, and why did the DeCavs have an underboss and captain there over relatively few members? I also wonder how early the NY families started branching out into FL. There was a family in Tampa and we know members like the Arcuris had bounced between both FL and NY, but curious when the families officially had a presence with members, crews, etc. in south FL.

Chain migration, America is 3000 miles to Sicily's 200 and the mafia was an exclusive society with a culture of mingling with each other. We've read about Vincenzo Troia, Salvatore Maranzano, Salvatore D'Aquila and Al Mineo from the American perspective. But then when you read things from the Sicilian side, from Allegra, Calderone, San Giorgi etc: Troia was heavily involved with the Palermitan Mafia as was Maranzano who was there in the 1920's. Not to mention that during the 1920's Palermo war these men were involved in mediating and D'Aquila even sent money to Palermo from NYC, and also during this time, Al Mineo's brother in law was a boss of one of these Families and arrived with him to America a decade prior. This was all within a 10 mile radius of Palermo, these men all appeared to know each other and have history. And yet 9 years later Maranzano plotted against Troia when people suggested him for BOB.

Not sure this would apply to all of the satellite crews I'm talking about. Chain migration could explain some of it, especially since we can't be sure who the earliest members were in different satellite crews, but in some of these crews there is no info suggesting a connection through villages, regions, or any other obvious line connecting them to an NY family. With Baltimore for example, the easy answer could be that the Palermitano Morici and/or his predecessors were part of the D'Aquila/Mangano family or network and then recruited local non-Palermitani in Baltimore to form that decina, but other groups don't even have that much to speculate on.

We can identify several, for instance Springfield went Gen when they got the Neapolitans. If the Bonannos had no one connected to there why would they have members there? The Mafia is a social organization built on family and associates. That's why there wasn't a Harlem or Brooklyn Family where everyone reports to one or the other depending on where they live. Rather it was who you knew and who you were connected to and who got there first. And let's use the Gambinos as an example: Palermo and Sciacca are on opposite sides of Sicily yet both factions have historically ran through the Gambinos, this was obviously an American arrangement. And drawing back to my previous Palermo example: Maranzano and Troia were not from Palermo yet were able to operate there as respected status'd members and involved with local affairs, everyone kinda knew everybody or of everybody else. That's where I think these satellites came from in different forms. Am I answering in the ballpark or strike 2?

Great insights from everyone!

[Angelo Santino]

About employment/economic opportunities...

Remember that the world was a much more brutal place and entire groups of people could be ruined or displaced by events beyond their control (think of the Irish potato famine), with "jobs" as we know them today being a relatively new idea to people who had agrigultural backgrounds or otherwise labored for sustenance with few opportunities for profit. This idea of "working a legit job" being some sign of failure as a mafioso is a modern invention like CC said, and it's been furthered by the media, shows, and movies.

I would describe the mafia from its earliest days to present as an organization dedicated to taking advantage of every situation available to them, whether it's criminal or not. To mafia members/associates from Sicily, who ran the spectrum of economic backgrounds, having consistent employment with dependable pay, especially in a business or industry that was influenced by their own relatives/paesani/Sicilians was a major luxury that many people in Sicily or even the world didn't have. Owning a store or company was a step up from that and sort of a half-way point between being a laborer and having the chance to mingle, do illegal business, etc. during the day, as mafia-owned stores and offices became hangouts.

Of course these guys didn't want to spend their lives in the fields or docks, but they didn't necessarily see it as "I'm just an ordinary schmoe workin' a 9-5, I suck at being a gangster" given what the world was like then. It's sort of like when we hear about teenagers being made in Sicily and the US back then -- it's not like they were inducting kids who would otherwise be running around playing Pokemon... these were little men who were much older for their years back then. The world was a tough place and people were less entitled, even mafia members.

This. I can't explain it any more perfect.

Bootlegging is really what catapulted the Mafia into the big leagues, before and after that they never achieved the riches that they earned during the 20's. That had just as much if not more of an impact on the organization as a whole, how it ran and who it recruited probably more so than any individual boss or ruling body. Before Prohibition, the boss of bosses was a store owner and before that Morello lived in a East harlem apartment and slept in a bed with blankets made of burlap sacks.

Underneath Morello, the Terranovas were the younger generation of the Mafia. In the 1910's they had ice stores, several saloons, a plaster store which they all worked. Morello's son was tending bar and later opened his own before he was killed. When they weren't doing that: robberies, kidnappings, counterfeits, painting fraud, arson against local business competitors, extortion of local businesses.

[Angelo Santino]

Just a headsup to Pogo and B.: I realize I'm talking to two veterans and this stuff is familiar to you so you needn't stuff explained, I'm just speaking for a general audience because other people might not be so up to date. It must come across like Sopranos Season 7 opener dialogue with Paulie Walnuts and Pat Parisi talking in front of Tony's closed casket:
PW: So the big guy is dead, just after we finished with those NY cocksuckers. You know, Phil Leotardo and them.
PP: Big shame. Me and Ton' were on track to being brother-in-laws? His daughter witnessed the whole thing: Nikki Leotardo pulling a Michael Corleone at Hagaan Daaz, you know the ice cream shop, saw the whole family murdered.
PW: Oo-fahh. You scored lucky friend, now you only have one prissy cunt you'll have to support, and that son's cunt was the prissiest.
*PP shrugs in agreement.

[Pogo The Clown]

Before Prohibition, the boss of bosses was a store owner and before that Morello lived in a East harlem apartment and slept in a bed with blankets made of burlap sacks.

I could have worked for UP fucking S and made more fucking money.


Pogo

[jimmyb]

About employment/economic opportunities...

Remember that the world was a much more brutal place and entire groups of people could be ruined or displaced by events beyond their control (think of the Irish potato famine), with "jobs" as we know them today being a relatively new idea to people who had agrigultural backgrounds or otherwise labored for sustenance with few opportunities for profit. This idea of "working a legit job" being some sign of failure as a mafioso is a modern invention like CC said, and it's been furthered by the media, shows, and movies.

I would describe the mafia from its earliest days to present as an organization dedicated to taking advantage of every situation available to them, whether it's criminal or not. To mafia members/associates from Sicily, who ran the spectrum of economic backgrounds, having consistent employment with dependable pay, especially in a business or industry that was influenced by their own relatives/paesani/Sicilians was a major luxury that many people in Sicily or even the world didn't have. Owning a store or company was a step up from that and sort of a half-way point between being a laborer and having the chance to mingle, do illegal business, etc. during the day, as mafia-owned stores and offices became hangouts.

Of course these guys didn't want to spend their lives in the fields or docks, but they didn't necessarily see it as "I'm just an ordinary schmoe workin' a 9-5, I suck at being a gangster" given what the world was like then. It's sort of like when we hear about teenagers being made in Sicily and the US back then -- it's not like they were inducting kids who would otherwise be running around playing Pokemon... these were little men who were much older for their years back then. The world was a tough place and people were less entitled, even mafia members.

I agree w/you guys. I know my case study is Detroit, not NY, but researching the same period (1900-1910s), I found it was very common for men of honor to work legit jobs (owning pharmacies, restaurants, fruit vendors---even guys working in the auto plants and salt mines). I totally agree prohibition changed everything. In Detroit with the Italians at least, that's when we saw more 24/7 hoodlums.

[HairyKnuckles]

Most members worked legitimate jobs ranging from cart handler to dock worker to saloons, carriages, horse feed, plaster, contracting, ice, shoe businesses etc...

If I wanted to work I could get a job at Wendy's.


Did those legit members have to kick up a piece of their earnings to the leaders or was the whole "kicking up" concept more of a byproduct of the organizations development into more of a total criminal operation? Thanks.


Pogo

I completely agree with Chis´ post above. Many of them had their own businesses. Barbers, undertakers, bakers, gocery stores etc. And who knows, maybe one or two were lawyers, priests or local politicians. I Believe that the ultimate for them was to have a monopoly in their field on the street or block where their business was located. Membership in the Mafia was a huge advantage in keeping competitors away. The general rule/agreement is that members who have fully legit businesses don´t have to "kick up" money from that business, even though membership in the Mafia itself helped establish the monopoly. But money derived from an illegal activity though is another matter.

[BillyBrizzi]

Yeah, I believe it was Joe Bonanno who said something along the lines that the ultimate goal for people of 'our tradition' was to create a monopoly. It didn't matter in what kind of profession or business it was, whether it was a bakery, funeral parlor or butcher shop etc. etc.

Awesome thread btw gents..

[B.]

Legitimate vs. illegitimate business is also a grey area.

If a guy works an otherwise legitimate job or business that has directly benefited from the mafia's influence or otherwise is part of an industry under the mob's control, they may have to give a cut of that up. We know of union jobs where workers give part of their salary to the mob leadership because the job was obtained through their influence. You don't see examples of mob-owned grocery stores or "mom and pop" type businesses having to kick up that I can remember, but if it was someone in the meat business who got their meat into stores because of, for example, the Gambino family, they could be under some financial obligation or owe other favors, likely at the leaders' discretion. It all varies based on who is involved and the situation and "legitimate" in the mob doesn't necessarily mean "ethical" or "fair", nor does it mean it is free from mob influence.

[Angelo Santino]

I agree w/you guys. I know my case study is Detroit, not NY, but researching the same period (1900-1910s), I found it was very common for men of honor to work legit jobs (owning pharmacies, restaurants, fruit vendors---even guys working in the auto plants and salt mines). I totally agree prohibition changed everything. In Detroit with the Italians at least, that's when we saw more 24/7 hoodlums.

Jimmy, your input and additions are always welcome.

There was a 'Tony Malazio' in 1922 who allegedly came from Brooklyn to Detroit, that name ever come up in your researches? Tony Randazzo made trips to NYC as well so both cities were linked very early on, his name pop up? Have you ever read Under the Clock by Balsamo and if so do you recall "Battista Balsamo" America's Founding Mafia Father? A load of shit yes, but elements of truth: the man lived in Brooklyn and came from Terrasini. His funeral was *said to have been attended by Gambino himself. Anyway, if this guy was Mafia he might have relatives in Detroit.

From what I have the Giannolas were fruit dealers in Ford City before their murders. In the 1920's Sam Cipriano peddled beer and had a bakery on Monroe Ave, Anthony Zerilli (who somehow became Detroit's "Founding Father" in 1931) also ran a confectionary store on Champlain and Hastings. But St Aublin street seemed to be the cluster: Ignazio Caruso, said to be the Giannola successor had a store there a short walk from Chester LaMare's place, Tony LaFata and Sam Catalanotte lived on that street; Caruso's nephew got married in New York and also stopped in Buffalo. Toto Ruggirello had the Chene Sugar Company on Chene St which supplied bootleggers. In 1922 and 1924 they seemed to still be legally employed as business owners but indeed they were attached to the bootlegging industry which became more and more of their focus. To put it in perspective the difference between the quintessential mafioso's finances on a broad level from 1900 to 1910 to 1920 is the equivalent to Walter White's cash influx in Breaking Bad S1, 3 and 5. Some of these guys ecked out million dollar nuggets at a time when the yearly Working Joe made between 4 to 5000 USD yearly what bootlegging did for some of its members.

[Pogo The Clown]

Why did Masseria go to that restaurant where he was killed? You'd figure he would have remained underground in some safe house somehwere while the war was on. Especially afer Morello was killed and his own extremely close call where Mineo and Ferrigno bought it. He couldn't have been that dumb to go out in the open like that?


Pogo

[Lupara]

Why did Masseria go to that restaurant where he was killed? You'd figure he would have remained underground in some safe house somehwere while the war was on. Especially afer Morello was killed and his own extremely close call where Mineo and Ferrigno bought it. He couldn't have been that dumb to go out in the open like that?

Pogo

Arrogance seems to blind people.

The same can be said about Stefano Bontade among many others.

[aleksandrored]

guys in the USA had a "capo dei capi"? because in some places or documentary I always speak of Lucky Luciano, Carlo Gambino, John Gotti and even Meyer Lansky, I find this somewhat confusing because the only one who had this title (even for a short time) was Salvatore Maranzano.