Businness or blood/George from Canada

[yatescj7781]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

[yatescj7781]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the 5 NY families he would be. In Montreal? No. The RIZZUTO FAMILY WAS ON TOP. GEORGE WAS THEIR LIASION TO NY AND VICE VERSA. This is the reason George was considered a capo of the Montreal crew. He was designated capo to deal with NY capos and bosses. He was never a Boss of the Montreal mafia(a supposed Bonanno crew)

[B.]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

[SILENT PARTNERZ]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

[Lupara]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

There's no such thing as a Rizzuto crime family. That shit was invented by the authors of the Sixth Family. There was a Rizzuto blood family (Rizzuto-Manno-Renda-Cammalleri) and an organization but there's no evidence that they were a recognised autonomous family similar to those in the US or Ontario, certainly not during Sciascia's time. Perhaps today, considering all the circumstances, they may be regarded as an independent group but even that is up for debate still.

[Laurentian]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.

[B.]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.

JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.

There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.

I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.

[Laurentian]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.

JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.

There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.

I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.

By the way, it was 5 years, not 6. At any event, I think it was a Bonanno rule that applied only to the Montreal decina. It was in the late 1960s that the question of the application of the rule became the subject of harsh discussions between Vic Cotroni, Paolo Violi (then underboss), and the Sicilians in residence in Montreal, like Leonardo Caruana, from Siculiana and many others like the Rizzutos, etc, opposed to that rule. Cotroni's role was to enforce that rule, as he was the capodecina, at that time.

[Laurentian]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

In my mind, George Sciascia, belonged to the Bonanno family and became later a caporegime of the family. While he had many siblings and friends in Montreal, he was a Bonanno member.

In Montreal, the rule wanted that the capodecina liaises with the Bonanno family. It started of course with Vincenzo Cotroni. However, in february 1960, Cotroni was arrested by the Narcotic Bureau agents as Cotroni landed in Miami, arriving from Cuba, where he met with Santos Trafficante. Cotroni was held for questioning by the agents and then expulsed to Montreal. From that time, he was declared persona non grata in the US.

From thereon, the Montreal decina has been represented by an avvocato, or representente, who were able to travel between Montreal and New York. Vito DeFilippo became the first one, then followed by Phil Rastelli, and finally George Sciascia. Sciascia was of course a natural choice, as I said, because as we all know he was from the same village than the Rizzutos.

[johnny_scootch]

He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina.

I doubt they were allowing enough guys to officially transfer to the Montreal crew to need a rule like that.
Montreal crew maxed out at 20 didn't it?
I thought these guys the rule would apply to were just looking to be recognized as full fledged made men which would allow them to operate independently and not have to be 'under' or 'with' a member of American Cosa Nostra.

[antimafia]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.

JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.

There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.

I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.

I'm not at home to consult my books and my notes; so I'm going by memory here.

The probationary period of five years was not Violi's invention. Between 1972 and 1974, he explained what appeared to be a Commission rule, as well as other finer shadings of rules, to the Sicilian men of honour Carmelo Salemi and Giuseppe Cuffaro who visited him at the Reggio Bar in Montreal and who spoke with him over the phone; Pietro Sciara, born in Siculiana and raised in Cattolica Eraclea, was also present on at least one of these occasions. After receiving felice's help to determine which publication contained the Italian-language transcripts of Violi's interaction with the aforementioned Sicilians, I finally ordered Mafia: l'atto d'accusa dei giudici di Palermo last December and received it in January some seven weeks later.

I have assumed that the Commission rule, which reinforces the argument that a made member of a Sicilian CN family could not simultaneously be a made member of an American LCN family--he would have to transfer from one to the other--also applied to made members of other secret societies; however, as much as others and I may argue for the impossibility of dual membership in the US and Canada, which I do, we don't know for certain whether 'ndrangheta members who found themselves in these two countries were ever able to transfer to an American LCN family and transfer back.

As much as Violi was a made Bonanno who was enforcing the rule that came from the Commission, I'm of the firm opinion he straddled two worlds. He had deep connections to the 'ndrangheta on the Italian mainland--maybe even to 'ndrangheta groups in Australia, as did his father-in-law, Giacomo Luppino--and he may or may not have realized the contradiction of telling Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't do this and that in Montreal, while he looked the other way when it came to his own affairs and that of other Calabrians in Canada who were inducted into the 'ndrangheta or were in its orbit. For example, Violi's telling the Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't talk in Canada about their goings-on in Sicily has been correctly interpreted over the decades as more evidence of the separateness of the American LCN and Sicilian CN, i.e., they are two separate organizations; yet in the early 1970s, 'ndrangheta member Saverio Mammoliti told two undercover FBI agents who were interested in purchasing cocaine and heroin from him that he needed the assent of three people: 'ndrangheta superbosses Mommo Piromalli and Antonio Macrì for the coke, and Paolo Violi for the heroin.

In books and articles, the presence of 'ndrangheta members in Quebec has hardly been written about at all, especially compared with how much has been written about 'ndrangheta members in Ontario. What has occurred to me is that although Violi was definitely a made Bonanno, the brothers who followed him to Canada could very well have been 'ndranghetisti. I am left wondering how it was possible that someone with Violi's talents and connections was never inducted into the 'ndrangheta back in Sinopoli or in Canada. Vic Cotroni (might have been Frank?) gave 'ndrangheta members in Quebec the opportunity to hold meetings in one of his establishments--when I get home later, I'll have to check whether I got this right, as the establishment might have belonged to someone else. There was at least one Siderno Group member, Domenico Torrente, who at the very least would be considered an associate of the Montreal Mafia--he was Giuseppe Cotroni's driver but also owned a night club. On the other hand, Torrente also seemed to defer to Mike Racco of Toronto, the longtime head of the Siderno Group there, as Torrente was heard talking to him on wiretaps about mediating a beef he had with 'ndrangheta member Vincenzo Melia (I can't recall whether Melia was living in Montreal at the time of the dispute).

I sometimes assert on forums like these that Luppino had to have been a 'ndrangheta member because he could not simultaneously have been a made member of the Buffalo Family. But what if he had been able to transfer to the Buffalo Family under Magaddino's watch? In the 1960s, Luppino had been heard on wiretaps telling Johnny Papalia in person that, in Ontario, Luppino seemed to have been appointed by Magaddino as the command centre and that "[w}e are all under the Commission." (I'll correct the quote later if necessary.) So what was Luppino doing when establishing a 'ndrangheta board of control in 1962 whose sitting members were considered part of the Siderno Group? Why did Luppino and Papalia talk to each other about two of the board members who were eventually murdered in unsolved cases? Why were the former considered suspects in the murders of the latter? If Luppino and his son Natale sponsored Paul Volpe into the Buffalo Family, were the two Luppinos present for Volpe's induction ceremony?

It is not a given that all five of Giacomo Luppino's sons and all five of his sons-in-law are or were 'ndrangheta members. This would also apply to the grandsons such as Paolo Violi's sons Domenico and Giuseppe, whose names have been mentioned a number of times since last November in association with the Gambino Family, Bonanno Family, and--depending on how you read the DOJ's news release--the Buffalo Family (now named the "Todaro organized crime family").

I am aware I got a little off topic.

[B.]

He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina.

I doubt they were allowing enough guys to officially transfer to the Montreal crew to need a rule like that.
Montreal crew maxed out at 20 didn't it?
I thought these guys the rule would apply to were just looking to be recognized as full fledged made men which would allow them to operate independently and not have to be 'under' or 'with' a member of American Cosa Nostra.

You make a good point -- with only 20 slots available and plenty of local Montreal (and apparently Toronto) candidates, it seems strange to draft their own rule about transfers, a rule that would impact the US and overseas mafias. That's why I think this rule could apply to more than just Montreal. The Bonanno family in NY had at least a couple of Sicilians who came over after the books were closed in 1957, but were recognized as made members by multiple sources before the books opened up again in 1976. One of these was Giuseppe Buccellato, who I believe came over in 1959 and was in the mix as a top family member in the Sciacca/Evola regimes. I'm not sure if Giovanni Fiordilino came to the US when the books were still open, but he and Buccellato had such deep and extensive ties within the Castellammare mafia that they could have been made in Sicily and transferred.

The rule wouldn't have applied to having their membership "recognized", but joining the Montreal decina. Recognizing Sicilian membership is still a murky territory -- we have examples of some guys doing it, other guys not. Seems to depend on the person and of course having a third party to make the introductions. I believe some of the disconnect between the US and Sicilian mafias in modern day has less to do with rules and more to do with the fact that there are very few members who can introduce two "amico nostri" from Sicily and the US.

In my mind, George Sciascia, belonged to the Bonanno family and became later a caporegime of the family. While he had many siblings and friends in Montreal, he was a Bonanno member.

In Montreal, the rule wanted that the capodecina liaises with the Bonanno family. It started of course with Vincenzo Cotroni. However, in february 1960, Cotroni was arrested by the Narcotic Bureau agents as Cotroni landed in Miami, arriving from Cuba, where he met with Santos Trafficante. Cotroni was held for questioning by the agents and then expulsed to Montreal. From that time, he was declared persona non grata in the US.

From thereon, the Montreal decina has been represented by an avvocato, or representente, who were able to travel between Montreal and New York. Vito DeFilippo became the first one, then followed by Phil Rastelli, and finally George Sciascia. Sciascia was of course a natural choice, as I said, because as we all know he was from the same village than the Rizzutos.

Well, George Sciascia is 100% confirmed as a longtime capodecina in the Bonanno family placed in charge of the Montreal decina. The men he was liaison to in Montreal, including both Rizzutops, were members of the Bonanno family, just as members of this crew were under Cotroni. This was the case as of 2001, and available info from 2004/2005 from a high-ranking Bonanno member matches this.

Here is how the timeline looks for Montreal:
- Carmine Galante said to have organized the Montreal group into a Bonanno decina in the early 1950s and lived primarily in Montreal during this period as the capodecina. I still have many questions about the Montreal group before this, though, and there is reason to believe the Bonannos at least had ties there pre-1950s.
- Galante returns to the US in the mid-1950s and is in charge of a large, sprawling decina that includes soldiers in NYC, NJ, and Montreal.
- At some point, Galante's soldier Vito DeFilippo becomes an unofficial liaison to Montreal/Toronto. Whether this was before Galante's incarceration or after is not clear, but DeFilippo was not yet a capodecina and this role continued well into the 1960s during the Bonanno conflict.
- In the early 1960s, following Galante's incarceration, Montreal becomes its own official decina, being officially led by Cotroni/Greco.
- Rastelli apparently becomes the liaison with the Montreal group following the Bonanno conflict, with DeFilippo in exile on the west coast. Note that the Montreal crew was not part of Rastelli's decina to my knowledge, as Cotroni kept his captain title.
- Old-time Bonanno captain Nick Alfano may have been another liaison to Montreal during this period or maybe earlier. He had ties to members of both the Bonanno and Buffalo families in Canada and Alfano's soldier Nick Buttafuoco was from Cattolica Eraclea. Alfano had also known the elder Vito Rizzuto before his murder in NYC, suggesting that the Rizzutos' Bonanno ties went back decades in NYC.
- Cotroni becomes old, the Violis are killed, and at some point in the 1980s Gerlando Sciascia becomes the capodecina of Montreal. Initially he is able to travel back-and-forth, apparently looking to move to Montreal permanently. However, his legal issues later force him to stay in the US and presumably this is when he makes Bonanno soldier and Cattolica Eraclea paesano Joe LoPresti his acting captain and liaison with the Montreal soldiers until LoPresti's 1991 murder.
- In the 1990s, the Montreal decina becomes seemingly more autonomous (though it should be noted that the crew was always very autonomous in the early Cotroni days), likely with the approval of Sciascia, who was among the more powerful Bonanno leaders and likely supportive of his paesani gaining more influence in Montreal.
- Sciascia's murder in 1999 causes an apparent disconnect with the Montreal crew, though it's clear by 2001 that the Montreal decina are still formally affiliated with the Bonanno family even if Rizzuto is reluctant to assume a formal title.
- By the mid-2000s, narratives emerge about Montreal being its own "family" (families require recognition by other familes -- so who recognized them?) and the Rizzutos being "international Godfathers".
- A high-level Bonanno cooperator states that the Montreal decina continued to send tribute money via the newest liaison, Montreal-born Bonanno soldier Salvatore Montagna, who requests and is granted a larger share of tribute one year, plus there was apparent drug business between Rizzuto (or his people) and Bonanno leader Vincent Basciano.
- Montagna becomes acting boss and presumably continues an arrangement with Montreal based on what we know before and after this period. He is later deported to Montreal where he is instrumental in the early stages of the violent mob war.
- Recent info emerges about the Bonanno family having a presence in Canada and inducting new members there, though it's not clear if this is linked at all to the traditional Montreal decina.

The best example I keep going back to for Montreal is the old FBN book. If you look through there, nothing is really "wrong". They have a good understanding of the relationships these guys had -- both personal, legitimate, criminal, or all of the above. They know who was important and have a pretty good understanding of how the criminal hierarchy was set-up. But that doesn't translate perfectly to the formal mafia organizations, so you have random non-Genovese guys in East Harlem getting called part of the "Tony Strollo" mob, guys being called "mafia leaders" who held no actual rank in the organization despite being important soldiers, etc. It took witnesses, informants, and revealing wiretaps to actually understand the mafia organizations these guys were in. It's kind of like those charts they showed in the Pizza Connection case -- they have a great understanding of how the hierarchy of the drug network was set up, but that didn't translate to the family affiliations and ranks these guys held in the mafia. If there are Sicilian mafia members in Montreal who didn't otherwise transfer to the 20-member Montreal decina, then they are exactly that -- Sicilian mafia members in Montreal who operate with some degree of approval/guidance from the local leadership, not a part of the local organization. At no point in the "Sixth Family" do the authors substantiate their claim that Rizzuto has "hundreds of Sicilian men of honor" (note: made men) under his direction.

If a member of the Gambino family lives in Los Angeles and has to operate with the approval and some level of guidance from the LA boss, you would not say that he is part of the LA family. Mob protocol is sometimes confusing and the rules can bend, but this is something that has been set in stone since its inception. If Sicilian men of honor, 'ndranghetisi, Buffalo members, or men who otherwise had a non-Bonanno membership in Montreal deferred to the Rizzutos or otherwise did business with this main Montreal crew, it does not mean they were part of that crew and fit into an organizational hierarchy, even if it looks that way from a criminal or networking standpoint (what I mean when I say old "FBN logic").

Now, you can say that none of this matters, that what Montreal journalists are talking about is this criminal network that the Rizzutos and their allies were at the top of in the Montreal area, and if that's what you mean then that's fine. But then why add on these labels, calling them a "family" and assigning mafia ranks to everyone, while denying or ignoring confirmed information about their ongoing affiliation with the Bonannos as of the mid-2000s? Where is this information on the Montreal "organization" coming from? Sometimes we have multiple member informants with conflicting evidence on who is made and who isn't, what the ranks are, etc. even in the NYC area, but we are supposed to believe vague information about the Montreal organization that has yet to be confirmed by, to my knowledge, any member of the Montreal decina or a member of another relevant mafia organization who could reasonably confirm the info? Things don't work that way, but careers are apparently dependent on the "Sixth Family" story.

[B.]

Cicale also said that Basciano had Montagna ask them for even more cash than they were previously giving, which Rizzuto reluctantly agreed to. Hope some info comes out eventually on whether Montagna knew the Montreal guys pre-2000s. Would be interesting to know too how much money/how often the Cotronis were passing up to the Bonanno administration in their era. Galante and probably other Bonanno leaders profited from the Cotroni's role in heroin trafficking, but not sure I've seen anything about them paying tribute/kicking up.

The Montreal crew didn't suddenly go from a street corner operation under Cotroni/Greco into a blossoming international mafia family/cartel under the Rizzutos. During the Cotroni days the Montreal crew was as much of an independent force with extensive international connections and the Cotroni brothers were top guys in possibly the biggest mafia drug operation/network of the day. Reports from that time also talk about how the crew basically governed itself. It's not taking anything away from the Rizzutos to say that this crew could have been called the "sixth family" at any point in its history.

Before we start calling a group its own family (a term with a very specific meaning in the mafia), it would be great if someone could identify/confirm more of the made members who have been said to make up the 20 man Montreal crew since the 1960s or earlier. We have a lot of good guesses, especially in the last couple decades, but there isn't reliable info. We've seen labels like "consigliere" thrown onto guys like Paolo Renda, but let's start with finding a source who can tell us firsthand that Renda was a soldier. Most of our limited info on membership comes from Bonanno informants. These guys did go to dinners and meet a number of the Montreal members so maybe they could ID them from photos and that info is in a file. If what Magaddino said is true, it would include a number of Ontario-based soldiers Bonanno recruited behind Magaddino's back circa 1950s/60s.

Did the Montreal crew, either under Cotroni or Rizzuto leadership, have or need the NYC Bonnano authority to make new members?
If not authorized by NYC, did they make guys anyway?

I am not totally sure about under the Rizzuto reign, but under the Vincenzo Cotroni - Paolo Violi tenure, Montreal had to request permission from the Bonanno Family to make new members, this of course after the Bonanno's got themselves permission from the four other NYC Families. That was evidenced by wiretaps that were played at the Quebec Crime Commission Probe, which inquired into the activities of the Mafia in Montréal, in November and December 1975.

JD also posted that as of 2004, there was some communication related to deceased members, as Frank Cotroni showed up on a Bonanno proposed member list as one of the names being replaced, indicating that the Bonanno leadership still factored Montreal into their membership slots. Romeo Bucci also appeared on a similar list from the 90s.

There is a doc from the 1960s that indicates Montreal handled the actual inductions themselves (requiring permission from NY, of course), which seems to be the belief for the Rizzuto era as well, but not sure. Could easily be a little bit of both over the years.

I've also wondered about Violi's "six year wait" rule. He apparently said that members made in Sicily (Italy as well?) had to wait six years in some kind of probationary period to officially transfer to the Montreal decina. Now that we know other families like the DeCavalcantes and even possibly the Gambinos allowed Sicilian men of honor to transfer, I wonder if this six year rule was mafia-wide, a Bonanno rule, or specific to the Montreal crew. Violi was an acting captain who hadn't been running things for long, so it's unlikely he came up with the rule himself. The rule must have come from or been approved by Cotroni or the Bonanno leadership originally.

I'm not at home to consult my books and my notes; so I'm going by memory here.

The probationary period of five years was not Violi's invention. Between 1972 and 1974, he explained what appeared to be a Commission rule, as well as other finer shadings of rules, to the Sicilian men of honour Carmelo Salemi and Giuseppe Cuffaro who visited him at the Reggio Bar in Montreal and who spoke with him over the phone; Pietro Sciara, born in Siculiana and raised in Cattolica Eraclea, was also present on at least one of these occasions. After receiving felice's help to determine which publication contained the Italian-language transcripts of Violi's interaction with the aforementioned Sicilians, I finally ordered Mafia: l'atto d'accusa dei giudici di Palermo last December and received it in January some seven weeks later.

I have assumed that the Commission rule, which reinforces the argument that a made member of a Sicilian CN family could not simultaneously be a made member of an American LCN family--he would have to transfer from one to the other--also applied to made members of other secret societies; however, as much as others and I may argue for the impossibility of dual membership in the US and Canada, which I do, we don't know for certain whether 'ndrangheta members who found themselves in these two countries were ever able to transfer to an American LCN family and transfer back.

As much as Violi was a made Bonanno who was enforcing the rule that came from the Commission, I'm of the firm opinion he straddled two worlds. He had deep connections to the 'ndrangheta on the Italian mainland--maybe even to 'ndrangheta groups in Australia, as did his father-in-law, Giacomo Luppino--and he may or may not have realized the contradiction of telling Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't do this and that in Montreal, while he looked the other way when it came to his own affairs and that of other Calabrians in Canada who were inducted into the 'ndrangheta or were in its orbit. For example, Violi's telling the Sicilian men of honour that they couldn't talk in Canada about their goings-on in Sicily has been correctly interpreted over the decades as more evidence of the separateness of the American LCN and Sicilian CN, i.e., they are two separate organizations; yet in the early 1970s, 'ndrangheta member Saverio Mammoliti told two undercover FBI agents who were interested in purchasing cocaine and heroin from him that he needed the assent of three people: 'ndrangheta superbosses Mommo Piromalli and Antonio Macrì for the coke, and Paolo Violi for the heroin.

In books and articles, the presence of 'ndrangheta members in Quebec has hardly been written about at all, especially compared with how much has been written about 'ndrangheta members in Ontario. What has occurred to me is that although Violi was definitely a made Bonanno, the brothers who followed him to Canada could very well have been 'ndranghetisti. I am left wondering how it was possible that someone with Violi's talents and connections was never inducted into the 'ndrangheta back in Sinopoli or in Canada. Vic Cotroni (might have been Frank?) gave 'ndrangheta members in Quebec the opportunity to hold meetings in one of his establishments--when I get home later, I'll have to check whether I got this right, as the establishment might have belonged to someone else. There was at least one Siderno Group member, Domenico Torrente, who at the very least would be considered an associate of the Montreal Mafia--he was Giuseppe Cotroni's driver but also owned a night club. On the other hand, Torrente also seemed to defer to Mike Racco of Toronto, the longtime head of the Siderno Group there, as Torrente was heard talking to him on wiretaps about mediating a beef he had with 'ndrangheta member Vincenzo Melia (I can't recall whether Melia was living in Montreal at the time of the dispute).

I sometimes assert on forums like these that Luppino had to have been a 'ndrangheta member because he could not simultaneously have been a made member of the Buffalo Family. But what if he had been able to transfer to the Buffalo Family under Magaddino's watch? In the 1960s, Luppino had been heard on wiretaps telling Johnny Papalia in person that, in Ontario, Luppino seemed to have been appointed by Magaddino as the command centre and that "[w}e are all under the Commission." (I'll correct the quote later if necessary.) So what was Luppino doing when establishing a 'ndrangheta board of control in 1962 whose sitting members were considered part of the Siderno Group? Why did Luppino and Papalia talk to each other about two of the board members who were eventually murdered in unsolved cases? Why were the former considered suspects in the murders of the latter? If Luppino and his son Natale sponsored Paul Volpe into the Buffalo Family, were the two Luppinos present for Volpe's induction ceremony?

It is not a given that all five of Giacomo Luppino's sons and all five of his sons-in-law are or were 'ndrangheta members. This would also apply to the grandsons such as Paolo Violi's sons Domenico and Giuseppe, whose names have been mentioned a number of times since last November in association with the Gambino Family, Bonanno Family, and--depending on how you read the DOJ's news release--the Buffalo Family (now named the "Todaro organized crime family").

I am aware I got a little off topic.

Excellent post!

If Violi said it was Commission orders on the transfer rule, then that is exactly where I was going by bringing that up. It's unlikely Violi or even the Montreal decina as a whole would have had the authority to make a decision that would impact different families/groups without some kind of higher authority.

On one of the Magaddino wiretaps, I believe he refers to the elder Luppino as a Camorrista. There is reason to believe that 'ndranghetisi/Camorristi are less narroow-minded when it comes to affiliations, i.e. they are open to their members being formally affiliated with other groups, while the Sicilian and US mafia is not. There is the well-known example of some Camorra bosses being inducted into the Sicilian mafia, for example, though I am way outside of my territory talking about this. That may explain how the Luppinos and others under the Magaddino banner were able to operate in two different organizations, if that is indeed what they did.

Something else to remember, re: "someone of Violi's talents" not being a member of the 'ndrangheta, is that at the time he came up in Canada, having an affiliation with a US mafia group like the Bonanno or Magaddino family was worth its weight in gold. It's only been in recent decades that those affiliations have less weight. It seems that if Violi was not an 'ndrangheta member before joining the Bonannos, him joining them later would have just been a way to honor his heritage and relatives and had little value or bearing on his role in the Canadian underworld given the status he had as Bonanno acting captain.

[Laurentian]

That is an interesting discussion. Thank you very much all!

[yatescj7781]

very interesting on george w the gotti crew....

would george have been looked as capo over vito??

To the American Mob yes, particularly the Gambino's and Bonanno's. In the Montreal Mafia he was the liaison to the NY Mob. The main conduit for drug transactions. He was under the Rizzuto's, but considered the Capo of the Canadian Crew of the Bonanno's. Which is why when they whacked him Massino sent an envoy to choose the new capo of the Bonanno Montreal Crew.

Sciascia wasn't under the Rizzutos. At best he represented them because of hometown loyalties, but formally he was their superior. No need to overcomplicate things.

Even though the Rizzutos were more or less running their own show they were obligated to follow protocol if orders came down from New York through Sciascia. A good example is the three capos hit or Joe LoPresti's murder. Surely they weren't giving Sciascia orders..

Maybe in NY and regard to the Bonanno family he wasn't, but in Montreal George was under the rizzuto family. No way you can say George was head of the Montreal mob at that time.

There's no such thing as a Rizzuto crime family. That shit was invented by the authors of the Sixth Family. There was a Rizzuto blood family (Rizzuto-Manno-Renda-Cammalleri) and an organization but there's no evidence that they were a recognised autonomous family similar to those in the US or Ontario, certainly not during Sciascia's time. Perhaps today, considering all the circumstances, they may be regarded as an independent group but even that is up for debate still.

You still believe them to be a branch of the Bonanno Family?