Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.
That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.
Pogo
True, it was ultimately by authority of the Commission but after the decision to have Caponigro killed, it seems it was the Genovese who Philadelphia was dealing with. Sure, the Genovese were more than eager to be point on all of it, so as to conceal their plot that set it all in motion, but when you read Leonetti's account, it was only them that Scarfo was meeting with. The other families were on the Commission obviously but they seem to be out of the picture by that point. The Gambinos were the only other family that would have really mattered anyway. And we need to remember one of the motives for the Genovese was installing a boss in Philadelphia loyal to them and not the Gambinos.
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Exactly. And on what exact page did Leonetti say NY had the final say? Not saying he didn't I just don't recall reading that, I'm just asking because it's very possible I skipped over it or it's just slipping my brain right now. And they banished Casella, because he'd had a prior connection going way back into like the 50's with an unnamed Genovese capo, according to Leonetti. I did some searching a while ago trying to figure out if I could possibly find the identity of this unnamed capo, and saw that Casella was indicted for drug trafficking with a few Philly guys, and some guys out NY, some by the way of Greenwich Village, but I couldn't find any name I recognized, so I let that little project die a silent death.
And according to Leonetti, it was Scarfo who basically made Phil Testa step up as boss when he told him after the death of Bruno, "Let New York get to the bottom of this plot and figure out what they're gonna do about it, but in the meantime you step up. You were the underboss and you become acting boss, and we sit back and wait for New York." This was before Gigante supposedly told him and Scarfo that the commission decided Testa would be boss and Scarfo would be his underboss or consigliere. So basically, Testa was already installed as boss by the powers of Philly, they were simply hoping and waiting for the Genovese to back them, which they ultimately did.
I don't recall the page and don't have the book at hand but it's in there. It's why Caponigro went to them for legitimacy, as did Scarfo did later on. Back then, Philadelphia could have chosen whoever but without NY approval, it wouldn't have mattered.
Wiseguy wrote:First, it got to a point where the Genovese family was dictating things to Philly. They banished one Philly guy to Florida. They made Scarfo the boss after Testa's murder and told Scarfo to take care of the conspirators. Leonetti said himself in his book it was New York who had the final say.
That was more the Commission dictating things. The Genovese were just the point men.
Pogo
True, it was ultimately by authority of the Commission but after the decision to have Caponigro killed, it seems it was the Genovese who Philadelphia was dealing with. Sure, the Genovese were more than eager to be point on all of it, so as to conceal their plot that set it all in motion, but when you read Leonetti's account, it was only them that Scarfo was meeting with. The other families were on the Commission obviously but they seem to be out of the picture by that point. The Gambinos were the only other family that would have really mattered anyway. And we need to remember one of the motives for the Genovese was installing a boss in Philadelphia loyal to them and not the Gambinos.
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:Exactly. And on what exact page did Leonetti say NY had the final say? Not saying he didn't I just don't recall reading that, I'm just asking because it's very possible I skipped over it or it's just slipping my brain right now. And they banished Casella, because he'd had a prior connection going way back into like the 50's with an unnamed Genovese capo, according to Leonetti. I did some searching a while ago trying to figure out if I could possibly find the identity of this unnamed capo, and saw that Casella was indicted for drug trafficking with a few Philly guys, and some guys out NY, some by the way of Greenwich Village, but I couldn't find any name I recognized, so I let that little project die a silent death.
And according to Leonetti, it was Scarfo who basically made Phil Testa step up as boss when he told him after the death of Bruno, "Let New York get to the bottom of this plot and figure out what they're gonna do about it, but in the meantime you step up. You were the underboss and you become acting boss, and we sit back and wait for New York." This was before Gigante supposedly told him and Scarfo that the commission decided Testa would be boss and Scarfo would be his underboss or consigliere. So basically, Testa was already installed as boss by the powers of Philly, they were simply hoping and waiting for the Genovese to back them, which they ultimately did.
I don't recall the page and don't have the book at hand but it's in there. It's why Caponigro went to them for legitimacy, as did Scarfo did later on. Back then, Philadelphia could have chosen whoever but without NY approval, it wouldn't have mattered.
Also in the book it talks about testa getting killed and both Casella and scarfo went to ny to see who would be named boss. I believe it was gigante who after dealing with casella said well nick i don't see anyone else here so I guess that makes you the new boss or something to that effect. in one of leonettis tv specials he talks about how it didn't matter what anyone said ny chooses the boss and that's obviously what played out after both Bruno and testa were killed.
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
The Commission, Caponigro thought he had permission from the commission not the Genovese Caponigro went to the Commission for legitimacy. As earlier said, the Genovese were simply the pointmen. During Scarfo's reign, the Gambinos also dealt with the Philly family closely, just like they did with Bruno. Which proves in itself, The Genovese didn't exactly make all the decisions for Philly, Scarfo did. It was Sammy Gravano that killed Johnny Keys Simone at the behest of Scarfo, because he was plotting with the Gambinos to take over, and the Gambinos bullshitted him all the way. I'd say Bobby Manna and his relationship with Scarfo, played more of a part in Philly LCN goings on, than the Genovese family as a whole. Again, through his relationship with Manna, Scarfo manipulated his way to the boss seat, sort of. Again, Scarfo didn't go to NY to get permission for ANY of the guys he killed. Not even Frank Narducci & Rocco Marinucci after the Testa bombing. I think Casella went to NY because he like Scarfo, already had a relationship with NY mafiosi, specifically Genovese members.
During Bruno's reign, Gyp De Carlo had issues with Tony Caponigro over crap and monte games opened up in each others territory. Gyp couldn't kill Bananas because he was from another family, and in his own words "they had nothing to do with them".The Genovese simply weren't the fronts for Philly. And outside of certain instances, they didn't call the shots.
OlBlueEyesClub wrote:The Commission, Caponigro thought he had permission from the commission not the Genovese Caponigro went to the Commission for legitimacy. As earlier said, the Genovese were simply the pointmen. During Scarfo's reign, the Gambinos also dealt with the Philly family closely, just like they did with Bruno. Which proves in itself, The Genovese didn't exactly make all the decisions for Philly, Scarfo did. It was Sammy Gravano that killed Johnny Keys Simone at the behest of Scarfo, because he was plotting with the Gambinos to take over, and the Gambinos bullshitted him all the way. I'd say Bobby Manna and his relationship with Scarfo, played more of a part in Philly LCN goings on, than the Genovese family as a whole. Again, through his relationship with Manna, Scarfo manipulated his way to the boss seat, sort of. Again, Scarfo didn't go to NY to get permission for ANY of the guys he killed. Not even Frank Narducci & Rocco Marinucci after the Testa bombing. I think Casella went to NY because he like Scarfo, already had a relationship with NY mafiosi, specifically Genovese members.
During Bruno's reign, Gyp De Carlo had issues with Tony Caponigro over crap and monte games opened up in each others territory. Gyp couldn't kill Bananas because he was from another family, and in his own words "they had nothing to do with them".The Genovese simply weren't the fronts for Philly. And outside of certain instances, they didn't call the shots.
You need to go back and read the Leonetti book again. Or any number of articles on the Genovese involvement in Philadelphia. Leonetti testified that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill all those involved in the Testa murder. Manna's relationship with Scarfo certainly set the groundwork for the Genovese wanting him to take over in Philadelphia but it was several leaders of the Genovese family that were involved in the Bruno plot. And they did it for reasons Leonetti outlined, including influence with the Philly family. The recent book on Chin talks a lot about this as well.
Leonetti doesn't say once in Mafia Prince that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill Narducci & Marinucci, the closest thing to that is when Nicky is quoted as saying "If it were up to me I'd kill Casella, Narducci, the Marinucci kid, but it's not up to me, its up to this guy..", then he does the Chin motion, however that was prior to them even going to the NY meet with Casella, when it gets to the chapter of Narducci's death, Leonetti again, doesn't say that Gigante ordered Scarfo to kill those involved in the Testa hit. What he does say is that "only NY can choose who the new boss was, and my uncle was the only guy NY would talk to", which goes back to what I said on about the Commission and Scarfos relationship with Bobby Manna. Yet doesn't the whole "NY chooses the boss" thing apply to every family that falls under the Commission, I mean thats always what we've been led to believe, yet the Genovese doesn't call the shots for all these families either. And Leonetti says multiple times in the book that the Chin headed the Commission, which is why they always met with him, and the Genovese. Again The Commission made the decisions, The Genovese were the point men, imo. And that new Chin book is trash, but thats irrelevant to this discussion.
To Wiseguy, just to clarify, I think we both agree that NY had great influence within the Philly LCN. We just disagree with whether it was so much the Commission as a whole, or just the Genovese as the sole family with influence. We certainly won't convince each other even with best of our efforts, but I can agree to disagree in this case.
