What Family did Joe Valachi REALLY belong to?

[Antiliar]

Can you guy's refresh my memory on why Morello was so hated and ostracized during this period? Seems a bit excessive.


Pogo

We don't have all the details. It basically comes down to D'Aquila seeing Morello a threat to his position. My conjecture is that while Morello was in prison his successor, Salvatore Locoiano, wasn't towing to his line because he made an alliance or at least a peace arrangement with D'Aquila, so Morello had him killed, then Morello had several of his supporters killed. That pissed D'Aquila off and he put a death sentence on Morello and his men, and while they were living they were read out of the Mafia. So in order to save his own life he promised he wouldn't be the boss of any borgata anymore. In the meantime, since the Morello-Masseria Family wasn't recognized by D'Aquila he decided to play by his own rules. Normally when a new member is proposed he gets vetted by all the Five Families, but they "sneaked in" people without that vetting. In order to increase their numbers they made gang leaders captains and their men soldiers. Totally untraditional, but it was a strategy that worked in the long run, when in 1928 they made an alliance with Manfredi Mineo and many others whose names we don't have, and assassinated D'Aquila and put Masseria in the Boss of Bosses position.

[Angelo Santino]

Can you guy's refresh my memory on why Morello was so hated and ostracized during this period? Seems a bit excessive.


Pogo

We don't have all the details. It basically comes down to D'Aquila seeing Morello a threat to his position. My conjecture is that while Morello was in prison his successor, Salvatore Locoiano, wasn't towing to his line because he made an alliance or at least a peace arrangement with D'Aquila, so Morello had him killed, then Morello had several of his supporters killed. That pissed D'Aquila off and he put a death sentence on Morello and his men, and while they were living they were read out of the Mafia. So in order to save his own life he promised he wouldn't be the boss of any borgata anymore. In the meantime, since the Morello-Masseria Family wasn't recognized by D'Aquila he decided to play by his own rules. Normally when a new member is proposed he gets vetted by all the Five Families, but they "sneaked in" people without that vetting. In order to increase their numbers they made gang leaders captains and their men soldiers. Totally untraditional, but it was a strategy that worked in the long run, when in 1928 they made an alliance with Manfredi Mineo and many others whose names we don't have, and assassinated D'Aquila and put Masseria in the Boss of Bosses position.

And also I'd like to add, we don't know if Morello was gunning to retake control over his own family again or if he wanted, on top of that, to reclaim his position as BOB back from D'Aquila. When both Lupo and Morello were released, there were banquets held for them with money'd envelopes which, in 1920 seems to indicate everyone was on good terms. Things went sour following Loiacano's death.

[Pogo The Clown]

Thanks guys. D'Aquila must have had some real juice to not only blacklist Morello in NYC but put death sentence on him that couldn't be lifted from either the US or Sicily. Evidently it must have since Morello did manage to rise up again.


Pogo

[Angelo Santino]

Thanks guys. D'Aquila must have had some real juice to not only blacklist Morello in NYC but put death sentence on him that couldn't be lifted from either the US or Sicily. Evidently it must have since Morello did manage to rise up again.


Pogo

The juice was his political position as the Boss of Bosses which put him over everyone. Even though families are autonomous there is a protocol which must be followed. My own opinion - and there's no proof of this - is Morello wanted his position as Family Boss back, Loiacano didn't want to give it up, so Morello had him killed and D'Aquila considered it unsanctioned and issued a death sentence on Morello and his loyalists inside the Corleonesi Family. There were others in that Family that, when faced with siding with the old renegade boss or adhering to D'Aquila's edict opted for the latter and became the Lucchese Family. Morello had his remnants, including Masseria became the Genovese Family "combineesh" as it was called. In 1924 an agreement was made: the death sentences would be lifted but Morello couldn't boss his old family. Reina of the Luccheses remained on friendly terms with Morello but toed the D'Aquila line.

[Pogo The Clown]

Thanks. Who else was on D'Aquila's death list? I recall there were several others with Morello.


Pogo

[HairyKnuckles]

Thanks. Who else was on D'Aquila's death list? I recall there were several others with Morello.


Pogo

In total they were 12. Sadly, Gentile only mentions three of them I think: Umberto Valenti, Morello and Ignazio Lupo. Would have been interesting to know who exactly all of them were. That would have been extremely helpful for all researchers in understanding and evaluate the situations that happened later on. Sometimes I see the glass being half full, sometimes half empty. Perhaps we should be thankful Gentile mentioned those three at least. Something important (I think) that needs to be said is that Gentile says Valenti was considered by D´Aquila to have been enemy No 1, who was the first to be eliminated. Not Morello (interestingly enough).

Reina of the Luccheses remained on friendly terms with Morello but toed the D'Aquila line.

It could also be the quite opposite. Once D´Aquila was taken out and Masseria and Morello decided to go to war, the Reina murder could have been an old score that needed to be settled.

[Angelo Santino]

Al Mineo went to Palermo around the exact same time as Morello, Lupo et al. did. However there's no evidence to verify he was there for that reason or one of the "condemned." I somewhat think that Mineo had too much weight in Palermo, his brother in law (who came with him to the USA in 1911) was the boss of Resuttana. During the 1920's this same boss was sent money from D'Aquila to aid in the Palermitan wars of the 1920's that involved Palermo and Piana Dei Greci.

And as for Reina being taken out over a long-standing grudge. The argument could be made that it was retribution for not backing Morello in '21 and taking half of the Family into a D'Aquila sanctioned group. The only counter to that is, after the war in 24, Morello and Reina went into some legitimate holdings together.

[rayray]

Sorry to interrupt this great thread, but am I understanding this correctly?

Morello was on on the outs and banned from heading his own borgata within the NY Mafia. So, he did his own thing and eventually brought in Masseria into the fold, his fold in order to gain strength? And this Morello-Masseria gang eventually evolved into the Genovese family?

Before all this, Masseria was not part of the NY Mafia and was independent like the outed Morello?

Is there any info how large this outed Morello gang was? I'm assuming it consisted of quite a few of the condemned 12 as allies/members.

[Cheech]

Reading this book now after pjtting it down. Any innacuracies?

[B.]

Reading this book now after pjtting it down. Any innacuracies?

Valachi is pretty accurate to the best of his knowledge/memory. Be careful to note where it's Valachi speaking vs. where it's Maas editorializing. Maas adds some bits of info that are either exaggerated or based on myths, but overall he's alright considering the time in which the book came out. It might be the most important mob book ever published and I am always entertained by it every time I pick it up on top of the valuable research info.

CC -- great info on Mineo's brother-in-law and communications with the US.

Is there info to suggest that the Masseria/Morello family really took half of the old Corleonesi family? From what I've seen there were some core guys, specifically Morello relatives and loyalists, who went over to Masseria but I haven't seen anything else. Maybe there is more out there about it.

Just to add something else about the original topic:
- Valachi says there were originally only fifteen guys in the Gagliano/Lucchese faction. Makes sense that they were eager to make new guys (Valachi, etc.) who were explicitly loyal to them. I am guessing that once Pinzolo was killed and the war broke out in the open more joined them. You don't hear about them being too broken or split during the war.

- When Valachi was told by Buster Domingo about the pact the Gagliano and Maranzano groups had made, Domingo specifically refers to Valachi and the Gaglianos as "you guys" and Domingo/Maranzanos as "us", so it was clear to both Valachi and Domingo at that time that Valachi was a Gagliano/Lucchese and Domingo was a Maranzano/Bonanno. Flash forward to the end of the war where Valachi volunteers to be with Maranzano's family and Lucchese tells him it's a mistake and they'll correct it. Seems that Valachi's affiliation was clear to the people he knew and the Maranzano situation after the war just confused him.

[Antiliar]

Sorry to interrupt this great thread, but am I understanding this correctly?

Morello was on on the outs and banned from heading his own borgata within the NY Mafia. So, he did his own thing and eventually brought in Masseria into the fold, his fold in order to gain strength? And this Morello-Masseria gang eventually evolved into the Genovese family?

Before all this, Masseria was not part of the NY Mafia and was independent like the outed Morello?

Is there any info how large this outed Morello gang was? I'm assuming it consisted of quite a few of the condemned 12 as allies/members.

Before he was boss of the Morello group, Masseria was associated with Cola Schiro's people. Can't say if he was made or not. Chris Christie can correct me if I'm forgetting, but I seem to recall that Salvatore Clemente said he wasn't made until 1923 (he didn't use the word "made" but something equivalent). That didn't make sense to me so I'm not sure the Secret Service accurate wrote down what Clemente said. Anyway, it's possible that Masseria was a made member of the Schiro Family.

[Antiliar]

Valachi is pretty accurate to the best of his knowledge/memory. Be careful to note where it's Valachi speaking vs. where it's Maas editorializing. Maas adds some bits of info that are either exaggerated or based on myths, but overall he's alright considering the time in which the book came out. It might be the most important mob book ever published and I am always entertained by it every time I pick it up on top of the valuable research info.

CC -- great info on Mineo's brother-in-law and communications with the US.

Is there info to suggest that the Masseria/Morello family really took half of the old Corleonesi family? From what I've seen there were some core guys, specifically Morello relatives and loyalists, who went over to Masseria but I haven't seen anything else. Maybe there is more out there about it.

Just to add something else about the original topic:
- Valachi says there were originally only fifteen guys in the Gagliano/Lucchese faction. Makes sense that they were eager to make new guys (Valachi, etc.) who were explicitly loyal to them. I am guessing that once Pinzolo was killed and the war broke out in the open more joined them. You don't hear about them being too broken or split during the war.

- When Valachi was told by Buster Domingo about the pact the Gagliano and Maranzano groups had made, Domingo specifically refers to Valachi and the Gaglianos as "you guys" and Domingo/Maranzanos as "us", so it was clear to both Valachi and Domingo at that time that Valachi was a Gagliano/Lucchese and Domingo was a Maranzano/Bonanno. Flash forward to the end of the war where Valachi volunteers to be with Maranzano's family and Lucchese tells him it's a mistake and they'll correct it. Seems that Valachi's affiliation was clear to the people he knew and the Maranzano situation after the war just confused him.

I think we have to be careful with the numbers Valachi gave. He could have been approximating or guesstimating. But as to the number who went with him verses those who went with Reina, we have no idea. We just don't have enough knowledge, enough information to generate an answer. We know his half-brothers (the Terranovas) went with him and Steve LaSalle went with Reina. There's a couple other names and that's it. We don't know more than that.

On Valachi's confusion with the borgatas, I wonder if his lack of knowledge of Italian or Sicilian hindered him. A lot of things seemed to go over his head, but during his Senate testimony he seemed to be of at least average intelligence. Makes me think there was a communication problem.

[johnny_scootch]

Before he was boss of the Morello group, Masseria was associated with Cola Schiro's people. Can't say if he was made or not. Chris Christie can correct me if I'm forgetting, but I seem to recall that Salvatore Clemente said he wasn't made until 1923 (he didn't use the word "made" but something equivalent). That didn't make sense to me so I'm not sure the Secret Service accurate wrote down what Clemente said. Anyway, it's possible that Masseria was a made member of the Schiro Family.

1923 seems wayyy to late for Clementes induction. As far as Masseria being part of the Schiro family I'd bet the farm it's a piece of info Joe Bonanno would have given us if true.

[Angelo Santino]

It was another informant- Di Matteo- who stated in early 1921 that Masseria wasn't a member and then later on said he "was now part of the Fratellanza." This year, coincidentally is the same time Gentile mentioned Masseria as a boss. Clemente knew and personally met Masseria but during the Second War gave no personal insight as to what side he was on or taking, for all we know he might have went with the Reina during the split. Interestingly, Charles Luciano was rumored to have joined in 1917 or 1919 so it's possible Luciano was "made' longer than Masseria and if he was, it would have been Salvatore Loiacano who made him.

[Angelo Santino]

Regarding the Masseria/Bonanno fam connection my stance is the same: I don't know, it's possible. Members/associates like to congregate and work together and it's not limited to the crime family you're associated with. If you lived in Harlem or Williamsburg you would most likely be brushing up against one group or the other, but in Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn you had members with different affiliations in the same neighborhoods. There's not a single made member in the history of the mafia that dealt exclusively with one family 100% of the time.