Mob Talk - 1/25/16

[Angelo Santino]

Mafia crews and Mafia mingling with others in the criminal underworld is largely organic. People in similar rackets tend to know/brush up against each other. And they don't always keep it to one racket. Combine that with childhood and family relationships and that's how the mafia has survived up until now. Membership comes from sponsorship from members with personal relationships to potentials.

With regards to this Mob Talk, it was interesting. Good opinions from everyone.

[Stroccos]

Is Borgersi A wiger ?

[SonnyBlackstein]

I think, and perhaps I can speak for Pogo, is where I have issue with the term 'faction', is where it's used in conjunction (with Scotts Philly reporting and rampant board speculation) that's it's a rebellious faction verging on open war.

I don't disagree that Chickie, Pung etc represent different groups, levels of loyalty etc etc with the Philly organization but what I DO take issue with is that this level of separation is on the brink of open warfare.

There is simply zero evidence of this.

So 'factions' may exist to some extent within the philly LCN but that there is zero evidence of imminent blood on the streets is the, so far, frustrating and baseless 'reporting' or speculation.

That's the difference that personally annoys this poster.

[B.]

It seems like we've been hearing about these factions since long before the Scarfo era guys were released and it's not just one media source saying it, but most of the ones that regularly cover Philly. It's mainly been "so-and-so doesn't like so-and-so type stuff", the rest has been inconsistent and nothing has come of it so far.

There was said to be a beef between Joe Grande and Joe Pungitore while they were both in prison, where Grande apparently expressed loyalty to Scarfo and Pungitore took issue and stood up for the new regime (whether that meant Ligambi only or Ligambi/Merlino would tell us something). This is why Scoops Licata discusses taking Grande into his crew on the tapes -- the Scarfos had reached out to Grande and Licata was looking to bring him back in and keep an eye on him for the administration. So far Grande's name hasn't come up at all since his release despite his nephew being in tight with the current leaders.

[Wiseguy]

"Faction"

a small, organized, dissenting group within a larger one, especially in politics.

a state of conflict within an organization; dissension.

[Pete]

"Faction"

a small, organized, dissenting group within a larger one, especially in politics.

a state of conflict within an organization; dissension.

Based on this definition most of the situations talked about would qualify

[B.]

A good example in Philly was the old Sicilian and Calabrian factions. They were two distinct groups with their own interests that sometimes conflicted, but they never went to war. Bruno was even quoted as saying Rugnetta was the rappresentante (boss) of this group, though technically they were all part of the same family. When I use a word like faction, I use it to mean something like "interest group".

[joeycigars]

Scott Burnsteins newest report on Philly
http://gangsterreport.com/philly-mafia- ... and-scene/

"Ligambi was asked by Joey Merlino to come out of a self-imposed semi-retirement

Are Ligambi and Mazzone are deferring to Merlino ?

"Merlino & Ligambi have the blessings of all 5 NY families ..."
"Photos of Merlino partying with at least one influential member of the Lucchese crime family have surfaced on social media in the last six months."

What Photo is this I missed it?

[Borelli]

"What Photo is this I missed it?

Him with Perna recently.

[B.]

Until a made informant or wiretap comes out confirming the different positions, I'm not trusting any gossip.

Here is what we've heard since 1999 or so:

Merlino - Official boss, former Boss, official boss
Ligambi - Acting boss, official boss, underboss/acting boss, consigliere, "dual consigliere", acting boss
Mazzone - Consigliere, underboss, former underboss, consigliere/acting boss, underboss
Borgesi - Consigliere, captain, former consigliere
J.Ciancaglini - captain, acting underboss
C.Ciancaglini - underboss, "dual consigliere"
Lucibello - captain, acting consigliere, soldier
Lancelotti - captain, acting consigliere, soldier, captain
Angelina - captain, acting underboss, captain
Curro - consigliere (acting?)
Massimino - acting underboss
Staino - underboss (acting?), captain
Licata - soldier, captain
Centorino - captain, soldier
Etc.

I might not have it all correct but I swear each guy was described in the roles I mentioned at different times over the last ~15 years, with a lot of the timelines overlapping and/or conflicting.

I trust what Licata said on the wiretaps 100%, that as of 2011 Joey Merlino was the boss, Ligambi was underboss/acting boss, and Mazzone was consigliere. Outside of that, I am waiting for the info to come directly from the lips of a made member.

[B.]

We also heard rumors of Ligambi speaking ill of Merlino to Borgesi ~15 years ago, then move forward a decade and we hear that it's Ligambi and Borgesi having problems while Ligambi supports Merlino to NY members on tape.

Pungitore as I said was apparently advocating for Ligambi (and maybe Merlino as well?) while still in prison, then he gets out and is said to be at odds with the new regime.

Joe Ciancaglini has always been said to have supported Michael Chang and Merlino against Joe Chang Jr. and Stanfa, but new reports from Scott say that Ciancaglini Sr. supported Chang Jr. and Stanfa.

Etc.

What's the truth? A big fucking nothing until we hear more. Let's ask Picasso.

[brianwellbrock]

Every city always seemed to have their own model on how to run things. For example in the Valachi charts Buffalo had "section leaders" and we know how the Outfit and Detroit were shown different from the NY model. Philly has adapted just like everyone else. I dont think they need to know who officially is the underboss or consig so they can go to sleep. They know who calls the shots and whos superior and under them. But I think Merlino is indeed boss and Ligambi, Mazzone and Chang are all equal despite titles and neither one can go over the others head.

[Angelo Santino]

We also heard rumors of Ligambi speaking ill of Merlino to Borgesi ~15 years ago, then move forward a decade and we hear that it's Ligambi and Borgesi having problems while Ligambi supports Merlino to NY members on tape.

Pungitore as I said was apparently advocating for Ligambi (and maybe Merlino as well?) while still in prison, then he gets out and is said to be at odds with the new regime.

Joe Ciancaglini has always been said to have supported Michael Chang and Merlino against Joe Chang Jr. and Stanfa, but new reports from Scott say that Ciancaglini Sr. supported Chang Jr. and Stanfa.

Etc.

What's the truth? A big fucking nothing until we hear more. Let's ask Picasso.

I think these guys get into beefs as easily as they get out of them for whatever reasons. Be it 1900, 1930, 1970-80 as well as now. Not everything is a Vito-returning-to-Sicily moment (as you already know). And if they are like the rest of the general population then everyone says something bad about someone at some point. I don't like to use the Sopranos as a reference point, but I do think the everchanging loyalties might have seemed soap operaish, but I do think there is some truth to it. Loyalties change and they are all schemers out to make money so they align themselves accordingly. We can all cite examples of members who betrayed their bosses as well as those who remained loyal.

Back to Sopranos I still laugh at Season 5 or 6, when "the crew" finds out Vito died and the camera zooms in on a distraught and disgusted Patsy Parisi/Dan Grimaldi who finally laments: "I shoulda borrowed money from Vito." The fellas nod their head and some wiseguy in the background who did, shakes his fist in excitement because he did and doesn't have to repay it... I don't think Philadelphian members are like that to themselves openly but I do see them as equal-opportunity advantage seekers when it comes to most situations.

Regarding Merlino, I've heard through third-party sources that Merlino was seeking a book deal as well as a movie deal about his life. No one in the entertainment industry bit. At one point he was fiddling with Danny Provenzano... Cut to today it appears he remains the boss. But I question: had he been successful in that industry and let's say gotten a million dollar-an-episode reality show contract, would Merlino care about what goes on in Philadelphia?

[B.]

I think Merlino always has a plan B, for sure. Maybe he had ulterior motives by trying to make it seem like he was looking to cash in on his past, when in reality he wasn't that interested. And as much as people like to talk about his social media presence putting too much heat on him, isn't it also what normal people do these days in our narcissistic image-obsessed digital world? Sure he's with a bunch of his longtime mob associates in half the photos, but the Philly family has always used the "lifelong friends together on the corner" angle when defending themselves and to some extent it's worked. One person might see Merlino as John Gotti posing with his capos, another person might see your average yuppie with an instagram account.

Anyway, you're very right about the shit talking, the soap opera type shifts in friendships and alliances, all of that constantly changing. To keep the focus on Philly, you can look at Ignazio Denaro and Angelo Bruno. Bruno is Pollina's right hand man, then suddenly he's on his bad side and at risk of being killed, so Denaro stands up for Bruno and the two get Pollina removed from power. Bruno becomes boss, promotes Denaro to underboss because they're best pals, then within a year or two they're not getting along anymore and Denaro loses his standing, but Bruno keeps Denaro in the official underboss position until he dies of natural causes. Then Phil Testa gets the official promotion but slowly he and Bruno's relationship deteriorates according to some sources, yet Testa stays loyal to Bruno until the end and helps avenge his murder. It goes on and on. These are complex, dynamic relationships. And I haven't even mentioned Rugnetta who had his own faction and occasionally butted heads with the rest of the administration despite being a loyal part of the Bruno regime for two decades.

Imagine if Schratweiser was trying to write about Philly in the 1960s?

[TommyGambino]

We also heard rumors of Ligambi speaking ill of Merlino to Borgesi ~15 years ago, then move forward a decade and we hear that it's Ligambi and Borgesi having problems while Ligambi supports Merlino to NY members on tape.

Pungitore as I said was apparently advocating for Ligambi (and maybe Merlino as well?) while still in prison, then he gets out and is said to be at odds with the new regime.

Joe Ciancaglini has always been said to have supported Michael Chang and Merlino against Joe Chang Jr. and Stanfa, but new reports from Scott say that Ciancaglini Sr. supported Chang Jr. and Stanfa.

Etc.

What's the truth? A big fucking nothing until we hear more. Let's ask Picasso.

Didn't Merlino rob Pungitore's mothers house, highly doubt he'd be loyal to Merlino over Scarfo, I remember people saying a few years ago that it was Pungitore being loyal to Scarfo in prison and beefing someone from the new regime.