Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:57 am
So we have John zanncocchio before he was allegedly shelved, telling “buffalo guys” that morena was a made member. Basically introducing morena as a made man of the bonnanos to guys in buffalo. Why would he do that if buffalo was not relevant? If the remaining buffalo guys were retired nobody would give a shit to introduce morena to them. And this is according to morena, not violi
Again we already knew this and covered this. Now where is all this Buffalo activity you keep talking about?
TommyNoto wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:57 am
The Feds did admit Italian Organized Crime in Western NY, they just didn’t specify if it was the Buffalo family.
Actually they didn't even go that far. If you read the actual indictment it says Bongiovanni was dealing with individuals who, among others, he believed were IOC. So from the wording of it sounds like he was taking bribes from different dealers and some them he believed were IOC. Also if I remember right a snippet was released showing Biongiovanni meeting with guys from Toronto.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
I don't feel Buffalo is "back". I also don't feel they are suddenly "alive" again, and I would not use any other indefinable, subjective description on any side of the discussion. If the WNY-Ontario group has ~30 members and a hierarchy, they still exist as a mafia family, albeit in a much more limited state than they were historically, which means they were never "gone" and are "alive" according to the rules of the mafia.
That's the whole of it for me and it's how I view the present day as well as 100 years ago. Many of the Sicilian mafia groups who first came to the US were small, struggling organizations and it's not surprising that things would come full circle and today the same groups would be small, struggling organizations on their way out. There is a reason why the mafia in the US is and was such a phenomenon: it required the perfect set of circumstances to grow to the level it did and those circumstances have changed. However, the mafia organizations are still the same mafia organizations, which is important to acknowledge.
As general "organized crime" entities, most of us agree on the state of the WNY-Ontario group. There is room for interpretation and there are certain unknowns (i.e. unconfirmed affiliations in Canada and the source(s) of the extreme violence there), but the picture we have of WNY-Ontario as a general "organized crime" entity is not impressive given their historical size and dominance. However, "mafia family" is not 100% synonymous with "organized crime" despite what pop culture has presented and you can't ignore the formalities of the situation. It's funny that Philadelphia keeps being brought up as a comparison, as I think Philly in the 1990s is actually the opposite of Buffalo in the 2010s: the active Philadelphia group was not recognized by NYC organizations, but as an organized crime group they were still significant. This organized crime activity combined with the recognition they eventually received are why Philadelphia has had some degree of stability as both a mafia group and an organized crime entity, but I think we all agree even they are on the decline.
My personal belief is that WNY-Ontario mafia activity will continue to decline, as that is already the trajectory they are on, but I can't rule out the possibility that they have and will induct select new members, promote those members, and maintain contact with other active mafia groups as they are able to do so, which are the basic requirements for a mafia family's existence. We have information from a reliable source that they have done all three of these things in recent years. Whether they continue to do so doesn't make a difference to me, as I am only looking at recent events and the present situation. I'm an interested observer and nothing more.
As some have pointed out, some of what I've said is "academic". I wouldn't argue against that, but to say that is to also say that the mafia's own view of itself is "academic" which is a pretty funny thing to say... yet that also might be true.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:57 am
So we have John zanncocchio before he was allegedly shelved, telling “buffalo guys” that morena was a made member. Basically introducing morena as a made man of the bonnanos to guys in buffalo. Why would he do that if buffalo was not relevant? If the remaining buffalo guys were retired nobody would give a shit to introduce morena to them. And this is according to morena, not violi
Again we already knew this and covered this. Now where is all this Buffalo activity you keep talking about?
TommyNoto wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:57 am
The Feds did admit Italian Organized Crime in Western NY, they just didn’t specify if it was the Buffalo family.
Actually they didn't even go that far. If you read the actual indictment it says Bongiovanni was dealing with individuals who, among others, he believed were IOC. So from the wording of it sounds like he was taking bribes from different dealers and some them he believed were IOC. Also if I remember right a snippet was released showing Biongiovanni meeting with guys from Toronto.
Pogo
Hold on a sec buddy, why don’t you answer the questions in my argument first? Why is zancocchio Introducing morena as amico nostra to “buffalo guys”.
B. wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:10 pm
I don't feel Buffalo is "back". I also don't feel they are suddenly "alive" again, and I would not use any other indefinable, subjective description on any side of the discussion. If the WNY-Ontario group has ~30 members and a hierarchy, they still exist as a mafia family, albeit in a much more limited state than they were historically, which means they were never "gone" and are "alive" according to the rules of the mafia.
That's the whole of it for me and it's how I view the present day as well as 100 years ago. Many of the Sicilian mafia groups who first came to the US were small, struggling organizations and it's not surprising that things would come full circle and today the same groups would be small, struggling organizations on their way out. There is a reason why the mafia in the US is and was such a phenomenon: it required the perfect set of circumstances to grow to the level it did and those circumstances have changed. However, the mafia organizations are still the same mafia organizations, which is important to acknowledge.
As general "organized crime" entities, most of us agree on the state of the WNY-Ontario group. There is room for interpretation and there are certain unknowns (i.e. unconfirmed affiliations in Canada and the source(s) of the extreme violence there), but the picture we have of WNY-Ontario as a general "organized crime" entity is not impressive given their historical size and dominance. However, "mafia family" is not 100% synonymous with "organized crime" despite what pop culture has presented and you can't ignore the formalities of the situation. It's funny that Philadelphia keeps being brought up as a comparison, as I think Philly in the 1990s is actually the opposite of Buffalo in the 2010s: the active Philadelphia group was not recognized by NYC organizations, but as an organized crime group they were still significant. This organized crime activity combined with the recognition they eventually received are why Philadelphia has had some degree of stability as both a mafia group and an organized crime entity, but I think we all agree even they are on the decline.
My personal belief is that WNY-Ontario mafia activity will continue to decline, as that is already the trajectory they are on, but I can't rule out the possibility that they have and will induct select new members, promote those members, and maintain contact with other active mafia groups as they are able to do so, which are the basic requirements for a mafia family's existence. We have information from a reliable source that they have done all three of these things in recent years. Whether they continue to do so doesn't make a difference to me, as I am only looking at recent events and the present situation. I'm an interested observer and nothing more.
As some have pointed out, some of what I've said is "academic". I wouldn't argue against that, but to say that is to also say that the mafia's own view of itself is "academic" which is a pretty funny thing to say... yet that also might be true.
You essentially seem to be arguing a similar point to Christie. And from an academic, or traditional/theoretical standpoint, much of what you said above may be true. However, if you want to hold to that definition, you're going to have to recognize every city where there's still a living member. Or a few living members. After all, they're still made members, and due recognition as such under mob protocol. That would include Rochester, Pittsburgh, Tampa, New Orleans, Cleveland, St. Louis, Kansas City, Denver, and Los Angeles.
Whatever mob families started out as, or were when they first arrived in the U.S., I would argue they absolutely did become synonymous with organized crime. In other words, their ongoing criminal activity was every bit as crucial to their makeup and purpose for existing as any older formalities.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:15 pm
Hold on a sec buddy, why don’t you answer the questions in my argument first? Why is zancocchio Introducing morena as amico nostra to “buffalo guys”.
I've already covered this numerous times. No one is saying that the remnants in Buffalo aren't LCN members or that they no longer have contact with NY. We already know that. We have seen the same thing with the remnants in Scranton, Clevleand, Rochester, New Orleans, Tampa and LA in previous years.
You are the one saying that there is all this activity in Buffalo in direct contradiction to the FBI, State LE, local LE and former Buffalo prosecutors. Yet still not provided anything showing all this activity you are talking about.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:15 pm
Hold on a sec buddy, why don’t you answer the questions in my argument first? Why is zancocchio Introducing morena as amico nostra to “buffalo guys”.
I've already covered this numerous times. No one is saying that the remnants in Buffalo aren't LCN members or that they no longer have contact with NY. We already know that. We have seen the same thing with the remnants in Scranton, Clevleand, Rochester, New Orleans, Tampa and LA in previous years.
You are the one saying that there is all this activity in Buffalo in direct contradiction to the FBI, State LE, local LE and former Buffalo prosecutors. Yet still not provided anything showing all this activity you are talking about.
Pogo
There is activity, (violi, Gerace, bongiovanni, ect). None of it is conclusive evidence of a formal structure, but if there was then we would not be having this debate in the first place right? Former prosecutors mean jack shit because they are former prosecutors that are likely out of the loop for well over a decade. Now comes law enforcement, the bongiovanni case can be used a large a reasonable argument as to why there’s been a lack of cases against buffalo. With an agent helping to prevent cases being opened on his friends and doing other shady shit, that can do a lot to cover the tracks of a group who mostly does gambling, loansharking, and some drugs (which seems to mostly be on the Canadian side). The fbi could be cooking up something right now.
Basically you have to pick apart what the hell remnants means and what defines remnants because the remnants in Cleveland or Scranton could be much different. I get what your saying, buffalo is gonna be a similar case to those other cities, some activity, making a guy or two, then just fading out or remaining remnants. But using probability, how ever unlikely as you think it may be, isn’t there a chance that these remnants could be something more than the other cities you mentioned? Why or why not
Again you are really reaching to explain away the lack of cases. For example Bongiovsnni was 1 DEA agent. So his corruption would have no bearing on the FBI or state LE investigations and assessment of the Buffalo LCN. On top of that he started taking bribes in 2008 according to the indictment which was years after the FBI had already declared Buffalo as finished. So again his corruption had no bearing.
As for Peter Geraci that is one case which may or may not be LCN related and is hardly indicative of the much larger picture that you are trying to paint. We have seen the same thing in many other cities before. Hell earlier this year we saw the son of a Dallas member busted for running a bookmaking operation and Dallas has been long gone for decades. So no surprise that we still see the occasional relative or loosely connected individual busted for a crime in Buffalo. What we are not seeing in Buffalo is what we have seen in other areas where there is still a recognized LCN presence I.e. an ongoing pattern of cases involving made members, made members with ranks and groups of LCN Associates indicted for ongoing patterns of racketeering. The last made member to be indicted in Buffalo was in 2002. Since that time care to guess how many have been indicted in Philly, New England, New Jersey and Chicago?
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:44 pmThere is activity, (violi, Gerace, bongiovanni, ect). None of it is conclusive evidence of a formal structure, but if there was then we would not be having this debate in the first place right? Former prosecutors mean jack shit because they are former prosecutors that are likely out of the loop for well over a decade. Now comes law enforcement, the bongiovanni case can be used a large a reasonable argument as to why there’s been a lack of cases against buffalo. With an agent helping to prevent cases being opened on his friends and doing other shady shit, that can do a lot to cover the tracks of a group who mostly does gambling, loansharking, and some drugs (which seems to mostly be on the Canadian side). The fbi could be cooking up something right now.
Basically you have to pick apart what the hell remnants means and what defines remnants because the remnants in Cleveland or Scranton could be much different. I get what your saying, buffalo is gonna be a similar case to those other cities, some activity, making a guy or two, then just fading out or remaining remnants. But using probability, how ever unlikely as you think it may be, isn’t there a chance that these remnants could be something more than the other cities you mentioned? Why or why not
I'm basically echoing what Pogo said above but we - and by "we" I mean you guys - need to quit resorting to so many "Could be's." A lot of things, hypothetically, "could be." It seems you guys are dealing in speculation and possibilities while some of us are dealing in the known facts and probabilities.
Furthermore, one dirty former DEA agent does not explain away the relative lack of cases against Buffalo over a 20 year timespan. Especially when it's the FBI - not the DEA - that primarily investigates the LCN.
You guys make good points, and your right about the lack of many cases, (although I would compare buffalo to New England or Chicago, not New York or philly as those are unfair comparisons). In my mind though, that still doesn’t dispute the fact that it’s on court records that New York members still seem to recognize buffalo. Now like you said, that could be like d’elia type of deal. However we have violi claiming his underboss. He can’t go around claiming he’s the underboss of a defunct family, or making it up because he will look like a moron once word gets out and lose standing with the New York bonnano guys amongst others. so far we have nyc families acknowledging buffalo as an entity, we have a Supposed boss and underboss, so right there is some administration. Now say even if there weren’t 30 guys like violi said, let’s say there’s only 15 active guys. That’s still enough guys for an administration and 2-3 small crews (let’s say they have plenty of associates, like joe violi). So is it really far fetched that falzone before he died collaborated with todaro to restructure something and that there is a small buffalo family?
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 12:44 pmThere is activity, (violi, Gerace, bongiovanni, ect). None of it is conclusive evidence of a formal structure, but if there was then we would not be having this debate in the first place right? Former prosecutors mean jack shit because they are former prosecutors that are likely out of the loop for well over a decade. Now comes law enforcement, the bongiovanni case can be used a large a reasonable argument as to why there’s been a lack of cases against buffalo. With an agent helping to prevent cases being opened on his friends and doing other shady shit, that can do a lot to cover the tracks of a group who mostly does gambling, loansharking, and some drugs (which seems to mostly be on the Canadian side). The fbi could be cooking up something right now.
Basically you have to pick apart what the hell remnants means and what defines remnants because the remnants in Cleveland or Scranton could be much different. I get what your saying, buffalo is gonna be a similar case to those other cities, some activity, making a guy or two, then just fading out or remaining remnants. But using probability, how ever unlikely as you think it may be, isn’t there a chance that these remnants could be something more than the other cities you mentioned? Why or why not
I'm basically echoing what Pogo said above but we - and by "we" I mean you guys - need to quit resorting to so many "Could be's." A lot of things, hypothetically, "could be." It seems you guys are dealing in speculation and possibilities while some of us are dealing in the known facts and probabilities.
Furthermore, one dirty former DEA agent does not explain away the relative lack of cases against Buffalo over a 20 year timespan. Especially when it's the FBI - not the DEA - that primarily investigates the LCN.
Alright fair enough wiseguy. So let’s take what your saying and direct it towards violi. Let’s look at violi, who has a huge family mafia pedigree behind him. He could have easily joined up with the bonnanos (which he was present for an initiation) however the informant morena does not acknowledge him as a bonnano member, nowhere does it say that. So here is my question to you since you deal in probabilities:
Is it probable that Dom violi, a man with a large mafia pedigree, connections, and his own underlings, a man with some power, would lie to another made man about being the underboss of a family?
If there is the boss and underboss of a family actively seeking new members for a family and committing crime, isn’t that a resurgence?
Is it possible that the buffalo resurgence could have had more success than the attempted ones mentioned in Rochester and other places?
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:38 pm
You guys make good points, and your right about the lack of many cases, (although I would compare buffalo to New England or Chicago, not New York or philly as those are unfair comparisons).
No comparison with NE and Chicago either. NE for example has had over 20 made members indicted in that time frame (most of them more than once) including several Bosses and Capos and about 100 (if not more) associates showing that a structured and ongoing criminal organization is still operating in the area. And despite all of this documented activity LE still considered the New England family to be small and weak over 10 years ago. If the Patraircas are considered small and weak what does that say about what is left in Buffalo?
Is it probable that Dom violi, a man with a large mafia pedigree, connections, and his own underlings, a man with some power, would lie to another made man about being the underboss of a family?
No one is saying he is lying about being UnderBoss. But you guys are making it more than what it is. He was UnderBoss on the street for 1 month (promoted in October and in prison by November). If you guys want to call his promotion and bust in a Buffalo resurgence than fine. That is matter of opinion and I won't argue with it. But where is the evidence of a structured and ongoing criminal organization operating in Buffalo like we have seen in other cities?
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 1:38 pm
You guys make good points, and your right about the lack of many cases, (although I would compare buffalo to New England or Chicago, not New York or philly as those are unfair comparisons).
No comparison with NE and Chicago either. NE for example has had over 20 made members indicted in that time frame (most of them more than once) including several Bosses and Capos and about 100 (if not more) associates showing that a structured and ongoing criminal organization is still operating in the area. And despite all of this documented activity LE still considered the New England family to be small and weak over 10 years ago. If the Patraircas are considered small and weak what does that say about what is left in Buffalo?
Is it probable that Dom violi, a man with a large mafia pedigree, connections, and his own underlings, a man with some power, would lie to another made man about being the underboss of a family?
No one is saying he is lying about being UnderBoss. But you guys are making it more than what it is. He was UnderBoss on the street for 1 month (promoted in October and in prison by November). If you guys want to call his promotion and bust in a Buffalo resurgence than fine. That is matter of opinion and I won't argue with it. But where is the evidence of a structured and ongoing criminal organization operating in Buffalo like we have seen in other cities?
Pogo
No comparison to Chicago. Remember the debate in one of the Chicago threads where we quoted Jeff Sallet who said, after two years of intense investigation, that the Outfit was "Running on Fumes"? If the Outfit is a small weak family running on fumes, what does that make Buffalo?
It would be to the benefit of the F.B.I. to acknowledge Buffalo being a small family like NE or Chicago but they repeatedly have not done it.
Moscone65 wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:59 am
Violi is for sure with the Luppinos. The Luppinos exist as an organization. Now whether they are under buffalo or independent can be questioned. According to violi they are under buffalo. Why would he claim to be under buffalo if the Luppinos were their own family, what difference does it make?
The Luppino's are not their own family and never have been, they have always been under Buffalo from Giacomo in the past to Natale in the present.
In this argument I have never once said 'hey look at all this activity there has to be a family in Buffalo'. I've stated more than once here that I believe everything Violi said on those tapes is true. Especially the 30 members bit which I'm lead to believe he got directly from Todaro during their meeting in Florida when Todaro told him about reaching out to the Commission and congratulating him for being the first Canadian to hold such a high position in the American Cosa Nostra. I also agreed that yes for many years not much was going on up there as Falzone for whatever reason was letting the family dwindle but upon Todaro assuming the power things changed rapidly. Men like Violi who had been waiting in the wings for decades finally got straightened out. A wide net was cast and men with connections but not apparently criminals were offered membership like Cece Luppino. I wouldn't be surprised if some fully legit businessmen were also offered membership. 30 members I say is very possible, that's what I've been arguing the whole time.
We've all been curious about the statement that Joe Violi had the choice of being made into the WNY-Ontario or Bonanno family. I wonder about the specifics of that choice. What crew would he report to if he became a Bonanno member in Ontario?
- Morena was made into the Bonanno family in Ontario, but was assigned to an NYC crew. We were able to deduce that he was most likely part of the Asaro crew, as Zummo was about to become an acting captain, replacing another acting captain, and previously lived in Middle Village / Ridgewood / Howard Beach along with Morena and associate Ragusa. All of this matches with the Asaro / Giallanza crew and their situation at the time. These may be coincidences, but Zummo also appears to be of Trapanesi heritage like many Asaro crew members and the Asaros also have a history with Canada -- interesting either way.
- It's strange to think of an Ontario member reporting to a crew in NYC, as Morena was, but this might explain Violi's presence at the induction ceremony. While Morena wouldn't report to Violi, there may have been an arrangement that he could seek counsel from Violi in matters that needed immediate attention given Violi was the highest ranking member in Ontario. Violi's presence at the induction would have made this arrangement semi-formal, I suppose.
- Would that mean that Joe Violi would also report to an NYC crew if he were made into the Bonannos? Not necessarily, as Morena was from the Middle Village area originally which is why he was connected to that crew. But then again, Morena's induction in Ontario and connection to the Violis shows that the Bonannos were planting a new flag in Ontario separate from their previous Canadian crew. The Bonannos may have had plans for more than simply Morena in that area.
- It would be helpful to know who would have proposed Joe Violi for membership had he chosen to join the Bonannos. Would it have been the Zummo group, like with Morena, or someone else? Interesting to consider the idea of the Zummo group having two Ontario-based soldiers, both of which received local counsel from the Buffalo underboss, who was also the brother of one of the Bonanno soldiers. A lot of speculation here, but it's as likely as anything else in this mysterious situation.
- Domenico Violi appears to have been on good terms with Arcadi, a Cotroni, and others in the Bonanno Montreal group, which suggests his brother may have been welcomed into their fold where their father and paternal uncles once were. The Bonanno Montreal crew has also had members in Ontario throughout their history, so it would not be an anomaly to have another member there.
And maybe the biggest question for me is:
- Was Domenico Violi given the same choice that Joe Violi was given? If so, it makes his promotion to underboss that much more interesting, as choosing the Bonannos would not only have affected Buffalo's membership but also their administration.
Joe Violi's "options" also suggest that there was an agreement between the Buffalo and Bonanno groups. I can't imagine he was told he had a choice without both groups' knowledge and consent, though it's funny to think about the alternative: "You can either join us or join the Bonanno family. The Bonannos don't know about this, but you can ask them."
Chris Christie wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:01 amNeither matter. Todaro could be in a homeless shelter and Luppino have zero (0) men under him. if Canada and NY recognize them as Boss and Captain that carries more weight than what we, as outsiders, think or wish to opine over. Discussions on their viability, longevity and power is a separate albeit, important part when forming a working understanding of what's going on but it doesn't supersede what the mafia's own members recognize as what is and what isn't within their secret criminal society.
Even if that's the case, even you have to admit that it doesn't end there. The devil is in the details. Going with your argument, the bar can be set rather low for us recognizing a family. Look at your D'Elia example. If the mob itself recognizes it, then we have to essentially believe that there is still a family in any place where other families may consider there to be one or even recognizes a single member as "amico nostra?" Does doing so really give the best and most accurate picture of things?
In other words, if 10 years down the road, we don't see anything else like the 2017 bust. None of these other 20 or so members, currently unaccounted for, are ever identified. And the whole thing does seem to have been a one-off anomaly. Would it be more accurate - at least practically speaking - to say the family came back into existence, even for a short time, or that it was simply some activity from remnants of a family that became defunct years ago?
It's not a one way or the other argument. Holding the belief that there's a current structure established (or reestablished) does not equate to holding the belief that a new golden mob age is upon us, which seems to be what you're trying to avoid seeing blossom. In terms of setting the bar, the mob sets the bar, if D'Elia is recognized nationally there's the answer, if the two 90 year old members in Denver are not, there's the other answer. These answers, in no way, conflict with the position that you hold regarding viability, lack of indictments, etc etc etc. We are discussing very different aspects of the Mafia phenomenon and there's no reason why each focus should be at odds. If Buffalo was reestablished it doesn't detract from the trend argument.
Wiseguy wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:22 amUnfortunately it does seem it will take that long. People who were on the RD forum might remember how much Detroit was debated over. 10+ years later, we don't see those debates much anymore.
So that's your concern, people running off with budding theories, brought on from the good ole RD days. Understandable.
I was going to respond to more posts but that'll have to wait, if and when I get back tonight I'll be half in the tank, so Happy New Year! Cent' anni.
