Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Angelo Santino]

Given who Violi was around and where he operated, to inflate his underworld standing as a 2nd in control of a crime family with 30 members would, if from out of nowhere, spread like wildfire and questions raised. The implications of his fabricating it could range from mockery to a death sentence depending on who his enemies were/are. IF Violi was throwing his weight around as a Buffalo rep with no one else, NY would most likely be reached out to from Hamilton/Toronto, "is this guy anybody?" Given his contacts with the Bonannos in NY and Montreal, that question likely didn't have to be raised. Unless Zannocchio was trout fishing in Canada and his proximity was a coincidence.

Bulletproof argument. Either Violi will face the consequences for fabricating his status or his words hold merit, moreso than a federal agent. This alone should conclude this debate, for now.

But ofcourse it won't because certain people here won't have it. Somehow they ignore that after 3000 posts most people's perspective on this subject has not changed much. So where do we go from here?

Is Morena (assuming he gave a shit to begin with and didn't forget the comment as soon the conversation was over) going to tell his Bosses that Violi said he "beat 30 Guy's" for the UnderBoss slot? Are they then going to send someone to La Nova and ask Todaro if there really where 30 guys under consideration for the spot or if Violi's count was off? Assuming Todaro would choose to answer such a ridiculous question and answer that Violi's count was off what would happen then? Todaro turns into Nicky Scarfo and orders him whacked? Or would the Bonannos do the work? How exactly would it play out? You guys are really overthinking and reading too much into what is clearly a throwaway comment made by 2 sociopathic mobsters in private conversation.


Also Christie we are arguing two different things. I'm not questioning their LCN membership and recognition. Tronolone was still a recognized LCN member but that doesn't mean that Cleveland still had a structured and viable OC organization as evidenced by Angelo Lonardo saying point blank that there was no Clevlenad family anymore and that it had been destroyed despite him knowing that there were still about a dozen members still breathing.


Pogo

I always enjoy debating with you. We keep it to the topic and we'd never allowed things to get personal between us. I think we both trust each other to be honest in our arguments, even if we completely disagree, which I'm not ever sure that we have.

I think we are debating different things but I'm not sure what the opposing argument is anymore.I believe you're viewing it from the de facto state of things which, if they exist, what difference does it make? The likelihood of any successful revitalization that leads to another era with Todaro in a Magaddino role is highly unlikely, probably impossible. (For that to happen Buffalo would have to gain a stronghold in narcotics, be NY's main middleman and do all this without attracting law enforcement). If that is the argument, I don't think anyone is on the other side of that issue. But then what's stopping someone else from zooming out even more and arguing, with merit, that the American or New York Mafia is not among today's top five world criminal organizations? This isn't the 1950's anymore and all of us can see the trend of where its going. But we're all still here for it.

If someone knew you were a Mafia expert and came up and asked you what connections the declining NY Mafia still has nationally, would you exclude Buffalo? By that I mean fully leave it out, excluding any and all mention of convicted Violi and his recent links with the Bonannos? I suspect you'd say something like: "The Bonannos appeared to have links in the Buffallo/Hamilton area with members or former members of the Buffalo, which had been dormant for 2 decades. A few guys were listed in ranks but take that with a grain of salt."


And I'll respond to the other posts here later on in the day, they're in my queue. Everyone- all sides- are making solid arguments.

[Frank]

My position on this is somewhere in the middle of the Pogo-Wiseguy and the Buffalo is and always been alive posters. One thing we have to consider is that of the possible 20 or so members that could be unidentified, there is a strong possibility that a good portion of them are not new members. Going by B's previous post about the different ways we can come up with 30 members. Some of his possible ways include that it's possible that some of these members could be inactive or retired from crime. Also with the Violin case and inprisonment and this current news of the agent on the take, if Buffalo was still active, does this put the nail in their coffin. In other words are they in the position were indictments show activity, but does nothing to proove they are coming back, but just kills them off completely.

[Moscone65]

You have tons of articles that argue completely against that, those quotes are just from articles that support your side of the argument. Also, I’m not certain myself, but is this lee Coppola guy someone still in the know? He’s a former federal prosecutor, note former. Where does he live today, is he still in the loop with street sources, or is he talking just based on what he sees

[Pogo The Clown]

You have tons of articles that argue completely against that,

Please quote these articles that show the existence of the Buffalo family and all this on going activity that you are talking about.

Also, I’m not certain myself, but is this lee Coppola guy someone still in the know? He’s a former federal prosecutor, note former. Where does he live today, is he still in the loop with street sources, or is he talking just based on what he sees

Former Buffalo Prosecutor Anthony M. Bruce lso backs him up.

"We're gonna talk about the death of the mob in Buffalo and it doesn't mean the mob is death elsewhere. Mob families are flourishing, not to degree they once were, but they are flourishing in NYC and there's still some mob activity around the country. I did organized crime cases throughout my career. Less by the end of it, but that was more a product of the fact there was nothing left in Buffalo by the end of it, in terms of organized crime that is."

[Moscone65]

You have tons of articles that argue completely against that,

Please quote these articles that show all this on going activity that you are talking about.

Also, I’m not certain myself, but is this lee Coppola guy someone still in the know? He’s a former federal prosecutor, note former. Where does he live today, is he still in the loop with street sources, or is he talking just based on what he sees

Former Buffalo Prosecutor Anthony M. Bruce lso backs him up.

"We're gonna talk about the death of the mob in Buffalo and it doesn't mean the mob is death elsewhere. Mob families are flourishing, not to degree they once were, but they are flourishing in NYC and there's still some mob activity around the country. I did organized crime cases throughout my career. Less by the end of it, but that was more a product of the fact there was nothing left in Buffalo by the end of it, in terms of organized crime that is."

Basically any Canadian article on the issue (Adrian humphries, Paul Manning, Peter Edwards)

[Pogo The Clown]

And what part of those articles are showing all this activity in Buffalo you are talking about? Some examples please.


Pogo

[Moscone65]

“ Iavarone, 50, was shot dead in the midst of a dispute between two Niagara Region groups of mobsters who are both tied to the New York State mob, several former southern Ontario organized crime police investigators said.

Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other.

“They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions.”

[John W]

Let’s end this here, who’s word should we take - Pogo’s, Wiseguy’s or Violi’s -

I’m gonna go with Violi

Happy New Year

[Pogo The Clown]

“ Iavarone, 50, was shot dead in the midst of a dispute between two Niagara Region groups of mobsters who are both tied to the New York State mob, several former southern Ontario organized crime police investigators said.

Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other.

“They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions.”

Besides it just being naked guessing and speculation none of those quotes backs up your claim of all this activity in Buffalo.

Let’s end this here, who’s word should we take - Pogo’s, Wiseguy’s or Violi’s -

I’m gonna go with Violi

Happy New Year

Right because it is really a case of my word vs. Violi's.


Pogo

[Moscone65]

“ It is shocking for several reasons, not the least of which is that the Buffalo Mafia, although once a powerful cross-border criminal enterprise, has been moribund for years.

The conversations suggest a resurrection as well as open lines of communications between the major American mob families remaining intact despite fierce law enforcement crackdowns that caused disarray.”

The Buffalo mob has since fallen on hard times. Old-timers who had run the group for years were dying of old age or retiring with little sign of new blood coming in, including Joe Todaro Sr., who was known by the nickname Lead Pipe Joe and was Joseph Todaro’s father.

The police evidence gathered during the three-year probe claim the organization was being resuscitated as the last reputed boss, Leonard (The Calzone) Falzone, was ailing. He died in 2016.

The reorganization seemed to begin in 2014.

Violi himself said he was inducted into the Buffalo Family as a “made” member in January 2015, according to the documents, and around the same time, Rocco Luppino, Giacomo Luppino’s son, was allegedly named “captain” of the group’s outpost in Canada; a younger Luppino relative was asked if he wished to also be “made.”

Violi said he beat out 30 other guys to become Underboss, the documents claim. All would have to be “made members” of the Buffalo Family to be considered for the post.

The mobsters, the documents allege, were clear that Todaro held the reigns of power within the re-emergent Buffalo organization; the men said that nobody became a member without going through Todaro first. They said a mobster in the area was either under Todaro or they needed to pack their bags and leave.

Also of note:
“ The news apparently flowed both ways between New York and Buffalo. After the informant was “made,” a mobster named John “Porky” Zancocchio had allegedly told mobsters in Buffalo, the informant told Violi.”

^So this is morena saying this not violi

[Pogo The Clown]

Again we already knew this. Where is the part showing all this activity in Buffalo you are talking about?


Pogo

[Moscone65]

So we have John zanncocchio before he was allegedly shelved, telling “buffalo guys” that morena was a made member. Basically introducing morena as a made man of the bonnanos to guys in buffalo. Why would he do that if buffalo was not relevant? If the remaining buffalo guys were retired nobody would give a shit to introduce morena to them. And this is according to morena, not violi

[TommyNoto]

“ Iavarone, 50, was shot dead in the midst of a dispute between two Niagara Region groups of mobsters who are both tied to the New York State mob, several former southern Ontario organized crime police investigators said.

Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other.

“They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions.”

The Feds did admit Italian Organized Crime in Western NY, they just didn’t specify if it was the Buffalo family.

Violi was moving wholesale weight. IMO this seemed much bigger than an anomaly. He definitely needed the protection of a family to move weight like that

[Moscone65]

Violi is for sure with the Luppinos. The Luppinos exist as an organization. Now whether they are under buffalo or independent can be questioned. According to violi they are under buffalo. Why would he claim to be under buffalo if the Luppinos were their own family, what difference does it make?

[Wiseguy]

Wow, the absolute arrogance for you to act as the benchmark for what constitutes a family and deem yourself the forum expert on the current state of the mob. This speaks to Sonny's point ten fold.

First, I never point to myself. I routinely point to the FBI and say not to take my word for it. Thinking you know better than the FBI, that's arrogance.

But since you brought it up, yes, I have a better understanding of the current state of the mob than most other posters here; including yourself. Saying so isn't arrogance. It's simply stating a fact. Sorry if that hurts your feelings. There's other aspects to the mob that other people have a better understanding of and I wouldn't be offended if they said so; assuming it was true.

My position on this is somewhere in the middle of the Pogo-Wiseguy and the Buffalo is and always been alive posters. One thing we have to consider is that of the possible 20 or so members that could be unidentified, there is a strong possibility that a good portion of them are not new members. Going by B's previous post about the different ways we can come up with 30 members. Some of his possible ways include that it's possible that some of these members could be inactive or retired from crime. Also with the Violin case and inprisonment and this current news of the agent on the take, if Buffalo was still active, does this put the nail in their coffin. In other words are they in the position were indictments show activity, but does nothing to proove they are coming back, but just kills them off completely.

As we've seen, one has to jump through a lot of hoops, as well as depend on a combination of rather unlikely "What ifs" and "Could be's" to get to that 30+ member figure and justify Violi's statement.

Let’s end this here, who’s word should we take - Pogo’s, Wiseguy’s or Violi’s -

I’m gonna go with Violi

Happy New Year

Conveniently left out the FBI and other law enforcement. And people wonder why I get belligerent. But go ahead, add your name to the ever-growing list of those who will look like gullible fools when this Buffalo resurgence fantasy all comes to nothing.

“ Iavarone, 50, was shot dead in the midst of a dispute between two Niagara Region groups of mobsters who are both tied to the New York State mob, several former southern Ontario organized crime police investigators said.

Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other.

“They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions.”

Besides it just being naked guessing and speculation none of those quotes backs up your claim of all this activity in Buffalo.

Pogo

Reading Moscone's earlier post, he was originally referring to activity by remnants of the Buffalo organization and how that's undisputed. As far as that goes, I think we both would agree about the "remnants" part. It's the hypotheticals and speculation that so much of what goes beyond that is based on that is the problem.

The Feds did admit Italian Organized Crime in Western NY, they just didn’t specify if it was the Buffalo family.

Violi was moving wholesale weight. IMO this seemed much bigger than an anomaly. He definitely needed the protection of a family to move weight like that

He was moving those drugs in conjunction with one or two New York families. Not all by his lonesome. And we have yet to see if we will ever see a repeat as far as he or anyone else tied to Buffalo goes.