Buffalo/Ontario Mob Acitivity

[Wiseguy]

I think it’s incorrect to count out New York influence in Canada. I think your over generalizing “New York”. New York is huge and there’s tons of lcn members there, so ya your average crew of neighborhood guys that seldom leave nyc likely have nothing to do with it, but there are mafiosi in nyc that have international scope. (Like Cali, Mannino, certain bonnanos) like we heard about before, when Vito rizzuto was released and on other occasions certain people from New York have made visits to Canada. So yes, there’s certain mobsters in nyc with a large international reach that have relatives, compari, and business interests in Canada, and they are no doubt well respected since nyc is the hub of North American Italian organized crime.

I agree with much you said above but that brings up two questions.

First, how exactly would the NY families tap into those 9 million people in Canada? Narcotics? New York isn't moving drugs into Canada. The traffic is usually going the other way, as far as they're concerned. Gambling? Are they going to be taking bets from Canadians and who's going to collect? Yes, there are ties between New York and Canada but the idea that New York is fighting a proxy war to expand there is a huge leap. Second, how is what is left of the Buffalo mob (on either side of the border) in any shape to fight a war?

I do recall a rather vague 2018 article that mentioned conflict between two groups in the Niagra region of Ontario, which had resulted in the murders of Angelo Musitano and Al Iavarone. The article said Musitano was owed money from a man involved in gambling who worked for mobsters in New York state. However, none of those involved in the actual murder were made members and had no backing from those in New York.

Another point, how about damiano zummo and the bonnanos that we’re trying to make guys here. How about joe violi having the choice to being made with the bonnanos? I’m curious to who’s pulling the shots and telling them to do this. It seems unlikely that mikey nose would have interest in this but maybe he does. I think he has more pull than most of us believe. When there’s money to be made, all bets are off.

Well, obviously the Bonannos have traditionally had a presence in Canada. Though, mainly Montreal rather than Ontario. The interactions between these NY and Canadian guys is interesting but what I take objection to is A) Manning's assertion that it's NY trying to tap into that market. New York setting up drug connections is one thing but expansion there is something else.

And B) that this constitutes a resurgance of the Buffalo family. Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s. As I said before, it may be more accurate to say the Hamilton crew had a resurgance, of a sort, but that shouldn't over-reflect on the state of the whole family.

It seems anything relatively significant got wrapped up in that 2017 case that included guys from Hamilton, as well as the Bonannos and Gambinos. The murders have all been in Canada. You look at the cases in Buffalo recently and they're the same piece meal, residual stuff we've seen for the last 20 years.

[BobbyBacala]

I think it’s incorrect to count out New York influence in Canada. I think your over generalizing “New York”. New York is huge and there’s tons of lcn members there, so ya your average crew of neighborhood guys that seldom leave nyc likely have nothing to do with it, but there are mafiosi in nyc that have international scope. (Like Cali, Mannino, certain bonnanos) like we heard about before, when Vito rizzuto was released and on other occasions certain people from New York have made visits to Canada. So yes, there’s certain mobsters in nyc with a large international reach that have relatives, compari, and business interests in Canada, and they are no doubt well respected since nyc is the hub of North American Italian organized crime.

I agree with much you said above but that brings up two questions.

First, how exactly would the NY families tap into those 9 million people in Canada? Narcotics? New York isn't moving drugs into Canada. The traffic is usually going the other way, as far as they're concerned. Gambling? Are they going to be taking bets from Canadians and who's going to collect? Yes, there are ties between New York and Canada but the idea that New York is fighting a proxy war to expand there is a huge leap. Second, how is what is left of the Buffalo mob (on either side of the border) in any shape to fight a war?

I do recall a rather vague 2018 article that mentioned conflict between two groups in the Niagra region of Ontario, which had resulted in the murders of Angelo Musitano and Al Iavarone. The article said Musitano was owed money from a man involved in gambling who worked for mobsters in New York state. However, none of those involved in the actual murder were made members and had no backing from those in New York.

Another point, how about damiano zummo and the bonnanos that we’re trying to make guys here. How about joe violi having the choice to being made with the bonnanos? I’m curious to who’s pulling the shots and telling them to do this. It seems unlikely that mikey nose would have interest in this but maybe he does. I think he has more pull than most of us believe. When there’s money to be made, all bets are off.

Well, obviously the Bonannos have traditionally had a presence in Canada. Though, mainly Montreal rather than Ontario. The interactions between these NY and Canadian guys is interesting but what I take objection to is A) Manning's assertion that it's NY trying to tap into that market. New York setting up drug connections is one thing but expansion there is something else.

And B) that this constitutes a resurgance of the Buffalo family. Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s. As I said before, it may be more accurate to say the Hamilton crew had a resurgance, of a sort, but that shouldn't over-reflect on the state of the whole family.

It seems anything relatively significant got wrapped up in that 2017 case that included guys from Hamilton, as well as the Bonannos and Gambinos. The murders have all been in Canada. You look at the cases in Buffalo recently and they're the same piece meal, residual stuff we've seen for the last 20 years.

Wiseguy do you eat ass

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[Pogo The Clown]

Great contribution to the discussion Bobby. Man this forum has really been infested with idiot GBB style trolls lately.


Pogo

[Moscone65]

I think it’s incorrect to count out New York influence in Canada. I think your over generalizing “New York”. New York is huge and there’s tons of lcn members there, so ya your average crew of neighborhood guys that seldom leave nyc likely have nothing to do with it, but there are mafiosi in nyc that have international scope. (Like Cali, Mannino, certain bonnanos) like we heard about before, when Vito rizzuto was released and on other occasions certain people from New York have made visits to Canada. So yes, there’s certain mobsters in nyc with a large international reach that have relatives, compari, and business interests in Canada, and they are no doubt well respected since nyc is the hub of North American Italian organized crime.

I agree with much you said above but that brings up two questions.

First, how exactly would the NY families tap into those 9 million people in Canada? Narcotics? New York isn't moving drugs into Canada. The traffic is usually going the other way, as far as they're concerned. Gambling? Are they going to be taking bets from Canadians and who's going to collect? Yes, there are ties between New York and Canada but the idea that New York is fighting a proxy war to expand there is a huge leap. Second, how is what is left of the Buffalo mob (on either side of the border) in any shape to fight a war?

I do recall a rather vague 2018 article that mentioned conflict between two groups in the Niagra region of Ontario, which had resulted in the murders of Angelo Musitano and Al Iavarone. The article said Musitano was owed money from a man involved in gambling who worked for mobsters in New York state. However, none of those involved in the actual murder were made members and had no backing from those in New York.

Another point, how about damiano zummo and the bonnanos that we’re trying to make guys here. How about joe violi having the choice to being made with the bonnanos? I’m curious to who’s pulling the shots and telling them to do this. It seems unlikely that mikey nose would have interest in this but maybe he does. I think he has more pull than most of us believe. When there’s money to be made, all bets are off.

Well, obviously the Bonannos have traditionally had a presence in Canada. Though, mainly Montreal rather than Ontario. The interactions between these NY and Canadian guys is interesting but what I take objection to is A) Manning's assertion that it's NY trying to tap into that market. New York setting up drug connections is one thing but expansion there is something else.

And B) that this constitutes a resurgance of the Buffalo family. Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s. As I said before, it may be more accurate to say the Hamilton crew had a resurgance, of a sort, but that shouldn't over-reflect on the state of the whole family.

It seems anything relatively significant got wrapped up in that 2017 case that included guys from Hamilton, as well as the Bonannos and Gambinos. The murders have all been in Canada. You look at the cases in Buffalo recently and they're the same piece meal, residual stuff we've seen for the last 20 years.

New York people can be involved in drug importation to southern Ontario, and Montreal backed importers might be preventing these New York/New York backed guys from making business, hence the “proxy war”. Just a theory

[BobbyBacala]

Great contribution to the discussion Bobby. Man this forum has really been infested with idiot GBB style trolls lately.


Pogo

Lol

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[Wiseguy]

Wiseguy do you eat ass

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Well that was random.

[Lupara]

Another point, how about damiano zummo and the bonnanos that we’re trying to make guys here. How about joe violi having the choice to being made with the bonnanos? I’m curious to who’s pulling the shots and telling them to do this. It seems unlikely that mikey nose would have interest in this but maybe he does. I think he has more pull than most of us believe. When there’s money to be made, all bets are off.

Solid arguments.

[Lupara]

I think it’s incorrect to count out New York influence in Canada. I think your over generalizing “New York”. New York is huge and there’s tons of lcn members there, so ya your average crew of neighborhood guys that seldom leave nyc likely have nothing to do with it, but there are mafiosi in nyc that have international scope. (Like Cali, Mannino, certain bonnanos) like we heard about before, when Vito rizzuto was released and on other occasions certain people from New York have made visits to Canada. So yes, there’s certain mobsters in nyc with a large international reach that have relatives, compari, and business interests in Canada, and they are no doubt well respected since nyc is the hub of North American Italian organized crime.

I agree with much you said above but that brings up two questions.

First, how exactly would the NY families tap into those 9 million people in Canada? Narcotics? New York isn't moving drugs into Canada. The traffic is usually going the other way, as far as they're concerned. Gambling? Are they going to be taking bets from Canadians and who's going to collect? Yes, there are ties between New York and Canada but the idea that New York is fighting a proxy war to expand there is a huge leap. Second, how is what is left of the Buffalo mob (on either side of the border) in any shape to fight a war?

I do recall a rather vague 2018 article that mentioned conflict between two groups in the Niagra region of Ontario, which had resulted in the murders of Angelo Musitano and Al Iavarone. The article said Musitano was owed money from a man involved in gambling who worked for mobsters in New York state. However, none of those involved in the actual murder were made members and had no backing from those in New York.

Another point, how about damiano zummo and the bonnanos that we’re trying to make guys here. How about joe violi having the choice to being made with the bonnanos? I’m curious to who’s pulling the shots and telling them to do this. It seems unlikely that mikey nose would have interest in this but maybe he does. I think he has more pull than most of us believe. When there’s money to be made, all bets are off.

Well, obviously the Bonannos have traditionally had a presence in Canada. Though, mainly Montreal rather than Ontario. The interactions between these NY and Canadian guys is interesting but what I take objection to is A) Manning's assertion that it's NY trying to tap into that market. New York setting up drug connections is one thing but expansion there is something else.

And B) that this constitutes a resurgance of the Buffalo family. Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s. As I said before, it may be more accurate to say the Hamilton crew had a resurgance, of a sort, but that shouldn't over-reflect on the state of the whole family.

It seems anything relatively significant got wrapped up in that 2017 case that included guys from Hamilton, as well as the Bonannos and Gambinos. The murders have all been in Canada. You look at the cases in Buffalo recently and they're the same piece meal, residual stuff we've seen for the last 20 years.

Decent arguments as well. This is a different tone than previously which makes debating more worthwhile.

[B.]

One historical mystery is what the extent of the Bonanno operations in Ontario was/is and what the true history is of NYC Canadian operations in general.

- As early as the early-mid 1960s, the Montreal decina was described as having more than a few unspecified members in Ontario and an early 1970s report describes how Bonanno members/representatives in both Quebec and Ontario were in contact with NYC via underboss Rastelli and capodecina Marangello.

- Magaddino was upset about the Bonanno presence in Canada but to my knowledge it has never been suggested that Buffalo had members in Montreal despite some connections between the Buffalo Hamilton/Toronto and Bonanno Montreal figures. It seems that Magaddino's issue with Bonanno stemmed from Bonanno presence in "his" Ontario territory. On his office bug, he complains about how he was fine with the Bonanno Montreal crew having ten members, but that Bonanno had expanded this, including members in Ontario.

- It's also not clear exactly what the circumstances were that led to Paolo Violi, whose ties were to the Buffalo-Hamilton group, joining the Bonanno family in Montreal and by the mid-1960s already serving as a protege and representative of Cotroni. It is believed that Cotroni became official capodecina of Montreal in 1961 and by 1964 Violi was his main man.

- Nick Gentile traveled to Quebec very early on with a friend of his from Ribera. He didn't mention any mafia activity, but elsewhere he says that literally everything he did ran under the umbrella of mafia activity and everywhere else Gentile traveled was a well-known mafia hub or outpost. It would be a surprising exception if Gentile's travels to Quebec didn't have a mafia connection.

- It's interesting too that Gentile and his friend were from Agrigento; more specifically, Gentile was from Siculiana like the Caruana-Cuntreras and when he returned to Sicily he lived in Cattolica Eraclea where the Rizzuto clan is from. I doubt this is coincidental and it seems likely that Gentile and his friend were in contact with an earlier Agrigentesi element in Canada that may have provided a foundation for future immigrants from Siculiana and Cattolica Eraclea. Many of the cities Gentile traveled to had a strong mafia element from Agrigento.

- One detail, too, is that Paolo Violi served as the godfather to one of Giuseppe Gentile's sons. Joe Gentile was the nephew of Nick Gentile. Given that Nick traveled to Montreal much earlier, this later connection between Violi in Montreal and Gentile in Vancouver could have deeper roots. Violi, despite his Calabrian heritage, was in close contact with Sicilian mafia leaders in same part of Agrigento the Gentiles and Montreal Sicilians were from. This would suggest that Violi stepped into an existing relationship between Agrigento and Canada rather than creating the relationship himself. We know of course that Violi would later come into conflict with this Agrigentesi faction.

- It should be mentioned that Sebastiano Nani, a fellow Mangano member and major drug trafficker like Gentile, was from Cattolica Eraclea and frequently visited Montreal. Nani's mother was a Renda.

- With Salvatore Maranzano living in Hamilton for a time and his relatives taking refuge in Montreal for a period, plus Joe Bonanno's earlier interest and travel to Montreal pre-Galante, it's possible the Schiro/Maranzano/Bonanno organization did have some presence/connection there earlier. We don't have an insider view of exactly what Galante did to "organize" the Montreal group for the Bonannos, but the mafia rarely traveled to far away places and "took over" without already having a foot in the door.

--

Obviously present day we are looking at many changes, but the mafia is very much based on historical relationships and that could tell us a little something about the Bonanno induction in Ontario, the relationship between the Violis and Buffalo/Bonannos, and other details we can only guess at. I should say again that it appears the Zummo, Morena, etc. element may trace back to the Gianni crew that Sal Montagna was friends with via Baldo Amato, who himself was close to the Montreal decina via the Rizzutos. The Gambino member Semplice who was connected to the case is also from Agrigento province. A lot of criss-crossing threads here.

[Moscone65]

Good connections, I forgot about zummo ect being with the cafe Giannini crew who was close with montagna.

[Moscone65]

All these guys came from Sicily or their parents came from Sicily in the more recent waves of Italian immigration (50’s, 60’s, 70’s)

[B.]

I want to clarify that Zummo himself has never been publicly linked to the Giannini crew and he would have been on the young side even among that young crew, but he lived in that area and his father was a Sicilian heroin trafficker involved with the Pizza Connection who operated in the same circles as Filippo Ragusa, father of Paul Ragusa, who was involved with Zummo recently. Morena of course was a Giannini figure along with Paul Ragusa.

Given Ragusa and Morena's long prison sentences, it would make sense for them to reconnect with someone they knew, and circumstances point to these guys having rubbed shoulders with Zummo earlier on. Montagna of course would be included in this general age group / circle of people and given that Zummo appears to have appeared on the scene either during or right after Montagna's spell as acting boss / Canadian leader, there are just too many dots for some of them not to be connected.

[johnny_scootch]

Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s.

You just assume this is true.

The official underboss literally said to another made member they had '30 guys' (+/- 2). You can go with that 'passing comment' bullshit all you want but just because you deem it to be doesn't mean it is. It's not like you heard the tape and interpreted the context which would put you in a better position to deem it a 'passing comment' you just read the words off a computer screen like the rest of us so can you blame me and whoever else for believing the words that literally came out of the underbosses mouth over what you assume to be a 'passing comment'?

[cavita]

Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s.

You just assume this is true.

The official underboss literally said to another made member they had '30 guys' (+/- 2). You can go with that 'passing comment' bullshit all you want but just because you deem it to be doesn't mean it is. It's not like you heard the tape and interpreted the context which would put you in a better position to deem it a 'passing comment' you just read the words off a computer screen like the rest of us so can you blame me and whoever else for believing the words that literally came out of the underbosses mouth over what you assume to be a 'passing comment'?

Shhh..... you're going to piss off the King of Quotes.

[Wiseguy]

Most of the remaining membership is in Buffalo (not Canada) and they can be counted on two hands. Mostly in their 70s and 80s.

You just assume this is true.

The official underboss literally said to another made member they had '30 guys' (+/- 2). You can go with that 'passing comment' bullshit all you want but just because you deem it to be doesn't mean it is. It's not like you heard the tape and interpreted the context which would put you in a better position to deem it a 'passing comment' you just read the words off a computer screen like the rest of us so can you blame me and whoever else for believing the words that literally came out of the underbosses mouth over what you assume to be a 'passing comment'?

I'm just pulling an assumption out of thin air. I've explained several times why it's very unlikely they have 30+ members.

If you want to go with what Violi said, you basically have to believe there are 20 or so members in Canada, most of whom have been made relatively recently.

When the base of the family (Buffalo) has only around 10 guys left, most in their 70s and 80s, who is ignorant or gullible enough to believe twice as many guys are in Hamilton?