Family Councils / Consigli / Seggia / Elders / Inner Circle

[Don Mosseria]

Oh, great. Thank you so much for answering all that Larry. Very interesting and informative on Sicilianu overall. And I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of the dropping the vowel thing for ages. But generally I’ve asked people who aren’t actually from Sicily but elsewhere in Italy, so they aren’t properly sure. So it’s really great to have you guys lay it out properly. Thanks again. Maybe it spread from Neapolitan to general Italian-American then, including as spoken by Sicilian-Americans? Cheers fellas!

[Don Mosseria]

Oh, and I was just thinking one other thing Larry. In terms of Torna and Torneo/Turniu being outdated words, we are considering a transcript from 60 odd years ago here. So the language probably will seem outdated compared to the modern speech. And if Maniaci was using a term that was already dated in the 60s, it would be really very dated by now. Cheers again

[PolackTony]

Oh, great. Thank you so much for answering all that Larry. Very interesting and informative on Sicilianu overall. And I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of the dropping the vowel thing for ages. But generally I’ve asked people who aren’t actually from Sicily but elsewhere in Italy, so they aren’t properly sure. So it’s really great to have you guys lay it out properly. Thanks again. Maybe it spread from Neapolitan to general Italian-American then, including as spoken by Sicilian-Americans? Cheers fellas!

Yep, that’s what happened. Particularly in communities like NYC/NJ, Chicago, New England, etc where there are many Italians from Campania, Puglia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, and Molise (all regions where most of the native local dialects are variants of Napuletan’). Other communities like Tampa, Detroit, Milwaukee, KC, maybe it was different, as there were comparatively fewer Mainland Southerners as compared to Sicilians in those cities.

BTW, Calabria is interesting as the northernmost section of Cosenza province traditionally speaks dialetti that are basically cousins of the Salernitan’ variety of Neapolitan, while in the very southern tip around Reggio the local language is basically Sicilian (very close to the dialect of Sicilianu spoken in Messina, for obvious reasons). The local dialetti in the area of Calabria in between these poles is essentially on a dialect continuum between Sicilianu and Napuletan’.

[PolackTony]

Oh, and I was just thinking one other thing Larry. In terms of Torna and Torneo/Turniu being outdated words, we are considering a transcript from 60 odd years ago here. So the language probably will seem outdated compared to the modern speech. And if Maniaci was using a term that was already dated in the 60s, it would be really very dated by now. Cheers again

Yes, and consider that Vito Guardalabene, who had been boss of the Milwaukee outfit in the early 20th century, when these practices presumably would have been current, was born in 1845.

[B.]

The Italian torneo is turnìu in Sicilianu.

Now, here's something very interesting also. In a late 19th Century Sicilian text, turnìu is also glossed as a translation of the Italian word giuramento -- literally, "oath".

Did you see Joel's post here where Angelo Bruno referred to a formal meeting where someone was going to be promoted to captain?

viewtopic.php?p=258714#p258714

He calls the meeting a "giuri" (ph) and when I first read it I immediately thought of the "tourna" (ph). Now you say turniu is a historic translation of giuramento. Sounds like Bruno was using giuri / giura in a similar way as turniu in Milwaukee and the words share a history.

Bruno refers to underworld trials / sit down as "arguimendo" in transcripts but wondering now if that was a phonetic take on giuaramento or if he used both.

As I've mentioned before, Rocco Scafidi said the Philly Family used to hold formal meetings of the entire Family which brought to mind Maniaci's "tourna" but the indication here is they called it a "giuri".

[PolackTony]

The Italian torneo is turnìu in Sicilianu.

Now, here's something very interesting also. In a late 19th Century Sicilian text, turnìu is also glossed as a translation of the Italian word giuramento -- literally, "oath".

Did you see Joel's post here where Angelo Bruno referred to a formal meeting where someone was going to be promoted to captain?

viewtopic.php?p=258714#p258714

He calls the meeting a "giuri" (ph) and when I first read it I immediately thought of the "tourna" (ph). Now you say turniu is a historic translation of giuramento. Sounds like Bruno was using giuri / giura in a similar way as turniu in Milwaukee and the words share a history.

Bruno refers to underworld trials / sit down as "arguimendo" in transcripts but wondering now if that was a phonetic take on giuaramento or if he used both.

As I've mentioned before, Rocco Scafidi said the Philly Family used to hold formal meetings of the entire Family which brought to mind Maniaci's "tourna" but the indication here is they called it a "giuri".

FWIW, “arguimendo” seems to pretty clearly have been argumentu, Sicilianu for “argument” (in the sense of rhetoric: a topic or theme to sustain or debate).

The use of what was transcribed as “giuri” here is interesting in that it is clearly a reference to the Italian giurare, “to swear (an oath) or promise”. Especially given that “turniu” was used in a now probably obsolete sense in Sicily to refer to an oath. Would be interested to see LarryC’s take too.

[B.]

Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.

[PolackTony]

Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.

I’d think so, and in Sicilianu the infinitive of the verb (“to swear”) would be pronounced as giurari, so the transcription may have rendered that as “giuri”.

[B.]

Valachi told the FBI too that a sitdown was called an "arguinamenda" (ph) so it wasn't just Bruno who used it.

Maniaci FBI interviews say that the turniu required attendance of all members and was held for important occasions. He said members could be inducted at one.

Scafidi said Philly used to have meetings of the entire Family and another source talked about how Pete Maggio was made at a Family meeting where new admin members were also chosen. I'm sure it was a "giuri" / "tourna".

It's been mentioned earlier, but when Scafidi first started cooperating he believed the Family had three consiglieri -- Dominick Olivetto, Joe Rugnetta, and Ignazio Denaro (who was the underboss). He had recently been taken off the shelf but was made for over a decade at that point and from a Sicilian clan, so whether Philly had a consiglio or not it's interesting Scafidi felt it was even possible to have three consiglieri ala a consiglio.

[PolackTony]

Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.

I’d think so, and in Sicilianu the infinitive of the verb (“to swear”) would be pronounced as giurari, so the transcription may have rendered that as “giuri”.

Another potential translation could also have been the Italian giuria/giurì — a jury or a panel of judges.

[B.]

That crossed my mind since the root sounds like jury. It makes sense -- Cosa Nostra was traditionally built around a legal framework.

[Don Mosseria]

I have just been reading some of The Last Testimony of Bill Bonanno, and Bill reports that the formal part of a Commission meeting was referred to as the Tornu, which he translates as “circle” (again clearly the same route, cognate to the word “turn” in English). Again, another closely related term with many of the same connotations as all the other variants we have discussed. He gives some interesting information on the implied meaning, beyond simply the word for a geometric shape:

“After entering the meeting room, the members sat in chairs arranged in a circle or around a circular table. The circle signified our tradition, which has no beginning and no end—and served as a reminder that each member had equal status. The chairman called the meeting to order by announcing in Sicilian, “Attaccarmu tornu” (“Let’s tie the circle”).”
…
“When the chairman declared “Attaccarmu tornu,” it was the signal for the Commission members, and anyone else invited into the circle, to stand and join hands, completing the circle. The chairman would then utter… “En nome del la fratelanza, il tornu attacadu” (“In the name of our fraternity, the circle is tied”). The members would then unclasp their hands and sit around the table.”

At the end of the meeting, “the men would stand and join hands, repeating the words of adjournment, “Il tornu e sciolto” (“The circle is untied”). With that, the meeting was officially over.”

Bill also gives some interesting information relating these “Tourna” terms to the other terms Tony and B were discussing above related to the English words Judge, Jury, Justice, Judgment, etc. - giuri, guirare etc., relating to swearing oaths and to judgment of sworn testimony etc. He states:

“For the members, this tying of the circle had a stronger significance than the swearing of an oath in a courtroom. On occasion, a nonmember invitee could join the circle if summoned, if what he had to say would be relevant to the deliberations in the matters at hand. Such invitees would understand that their testimony was limited to reporting the facts, not interpreting them [note: they are sworn in like a courtroom witness]. The circle gave sanctity to what was said”.

This is all in Chapter 6: Protocol of a Commission Meeting. The PDF version of the book that I am reading does not give page numbers unfortunately.

It really is fascinating from a social history perspective that a word for a family gathering - tornu - which apparently would be used for any family, is so closely tied to all these related terms that have additional meaning related to oath sworn loyalty, which I would imagine indicates these connotations were implied by this word itself (especially as a mafia family apparently used it for its gathering). But it even shines light on the whole idea of referring to such an organisation as a family at all. In an environment of weak and corrupt state institutions, family, and extended family/clan, is itself the key institution. To survive and thrive requires strong family bonds of loyalty, mutual defence and mutual action.

[Don Mosseria]

It really is fascinating from a social history perspective that a word for a family gathering - tornu - which apparently would be used for any family,

Bloody hell, can one not delete a post with a mistake after you’ve submitted it? I meant torna in the sentence above, not tornu, the latter of which is Bill Bonanno’s term for the Commission session, not the term for a family gathering (and likely Maniaci’s term for an all family gathering), which is the former, and what I should have written…

[Don Mosseria]

Oh, great. Thank you so much for answering all that Larry. Very interesting and informative on Sicilianu overall. And I’ve been trying to get to the bottom of the dropping the vowel thing for ages. But generally I’ve asked people who aren’t actually from Sicily but elsewhere in Italy, so they aren’t properly sure. So it’s really great to have you guys lay it out properly. Thanks again. Maybe it spread from Neapolitan to general Italian-American then, including as spoken by Sicilian-Americans? Cheers fellas!

Yep, that’s what happened. Particularly in communities like NYC/NJ, Chicago, New England, etc where there are many Italians from Campania, Puglia, Basilicata, Abruzzo, and Molise (all regions where most of the native local dialects are variants of Napuletan’). Other communities like Tampa, Detroit, Milwaukee, KC, maybe it was different, as there were comparatively fewer Mainland Southerners as compared to Sicilians in those cities.

BTW, Calabria is interesting as the northernmost section of Cosenza province traditionally speaks dialetti that are basically cousins of the Salernitan’ variety of Neapolitan, while in the very southern tip around Reggio the local language is basically Sicilian (very close to the dialect of Sicilianu spoken in Messina, for obvious reasons). The local dialetti in the area of Calabria in between these poles is essentially on a dialect continuum between Sicilianu and Napuletan’.

Tony - I think you said (unless it was Eric or Angelo) in one of your episodes that there was evidence that it took some incredibly short amount of time for immigrants arriving in America from different Italian regions to start speaking to each other in a form of standardised dialect formed in America. 5 years or something. I guess that would be the kind of thing we are discussing here. I would be very interested to see that if you are aware of an article on it anywhere. Thanks!

[LarryC]

Sounds like Bruno's use of "giuri" or giurare for a formal meeting where someone was to be promoted was akin to "swearing in" the new captain.

It's gira, which simply means to turn, or spin, or simply..change. If you're watching tv, someone says "gira", simply means to turn the channel, or rotate the channel.