In light of the recent Colombo bust, my observations.

[CabriniGreen]

No, I was trying to make a larger, macro argument. Basically, they had sports betting all to themselves for a hundred years, yet didnt have the foresight to get in position for the legalized books.

This can be repeated all over. They shoulda had 3 or 4 Brownis Ferris for carting, one for Avellino, one for Faaila, one for Allie Shades. If Profaci has a huge liquor distributorship, many others should too, in fact, they should outright own some brands, and before you say no, fucking RAPPERS do this today.

Yes, those rappers are pretend gangsters.

Colavita olive oil? There should be cheese, and Tomato paste, and olives, and who knows what..( I wonder if this is what the Inzerillos had going on..) think Cali and his fruits and veggies. It should ALL be legit. Linens, Trucking, Garment Center Manufacturing, Taxis, anything with a Union attached to it.......

And then they should have bought the Vatican's 25% stake in Immobiliare for $600 million...


I swear, you have an alter ego that's a standup comedian...lol

It might sound grandiose. But seriously.... Profaci had Colavita right? WHAT IF Bonnano buys that third of Saputo? Why couldnt they have their own pasta brand? Paste? Wines? It's why the Favara thing was interesting to me...

And the Inzerillos. They are supposed to have a huge, I think, legitimate business structure in place. One day when I get time, I want to do a deep dive into Calis produce business, company names, what brands, where he operated, all that.


I mean think about it. They should be mostly Todaros, with legit franchises and hotels and stuff than street guys. This is if they aren't based in criminality....

[CabriniGreen]

No, I was trying to make a larger, macro argument. Basically, they had sports betting all to themselves for a hundred years, yet didnt have the foresight to get in position for the legalized books.

This can be repeated all over. They shoulda had 3 or 4 Brownis Ferris for carting, one for Avellino, one for Faaila, one for Allie Shades. If Profaci has a huge liquor distributorship, many others should too, in fact, they should outright own some brands, and before you say no, fucking RAPPERS do this today.

Yes, those rappers are pretend gangsters.

Colavita olive oil? There should be cheese, and Tomato paste, and olives, and who knows what..( I wonder if this is what the Inzerillos had going on..) think Cali and his fruits and veggies. It should ALL be legit. Linens, Trucking, Garment Center Manufacturing, Taxis, anything with a Union attached to it.......

And then they should have bought the Vatican's 25% stake in Immobiliare for $600 million...

I swear, you have an alter ego that's a standup comedian...lol

It might sound grandiose. But seriously.... Profaci had Colavita right? WHAT IF Bonnano buys that third of Saputo? Why couldnt they have their own pasta brand? Paste? Wines? It's why the Favara thing was interesting to me...

And the Inzerillos. They are supposed to have a huge, I think, legitimate business structure in place. One day when I get time, I want to do a deep dive into Calis produce business, company names, what brands, where he operated, all that.


I mean think about it. They should be mostly Todaros, with legit franchises and hotels and stuff than street guys. This is if they aren't based in criminality....

[B.]

FBI summarizing info from Italian authorities:



Not a perfect description but I haven't seen a perfect description. It matches some of my own view.

Italian investigators already had a good understanding of the local mafia back then, they'd been dealing with it for a century at least. You can argue it changed in America but it comes from the same roots and you can still see similarities today.

The mafia has always had a strong ownership class. Most of the bosses in the US came here with businesses and middle to upper middle class wealth. Not necessarily from illegal revenue in Sicily either but businesses they ran there. Many bosses came from well off families with property, assets, etc. and used those to gain social influence, do business with other mafia members, and give employment to members. You didn't really see poor bandits and thugs fight their way to the top early on.

They use the same network to further their legitimate businesses as they would illegal activities and sometimes they cross over but not always. Big mythology that all legitimate businesses are "fronts" for illegal activity. Some are, some aren't.

The problem talking about the mafia is the need to paint it with one brush stroke. It's wrong to say it's based on criminal operations, but it's equally wrong to say it's not based on them. It's a venn diagram where all kinds of things overlap and at the center is power and control of resources for a very exclusive and insular group who have turned it into an ethnic tradition.

It's basically libertarianism gone haywire when it comes to economics, with extreme social conservativism when it comes to culture. They all vote Republican not because they fit in perfectly with modern conservatives but because it lends itself to their system more than the left.

[Ivan]

They all vote Republican not because they fit in perfectly with modern conservatives but because it lends itself to their system more than the left.

I've seen claims online that the Merlino gang in Philly are all big MAGA guys. No idea if that's really true though.

[B.]

They all vote Republican not because they fit in perfectly with modern conservatives but because it lends itself to their system more than the left.

I've seen claims online that the Merlino gang in Philly are all big MAGA guys. No idea if that's really true though.

Vast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

[CabriniGreen]

FBI summarizing info from Italian authorities:



Not a perfect description but I haven't seen a perfect description. It matches some of my own view.

Italian investigators already had a good understanding of the local mafia back then, they'd been dealing with it for a century at least. You can argue it changed in America but it comes from the same roots and you can still see similarities today.

The mafia has always had a strong ownership class. Most of the bosses in the US came here with businesses and middle to upper middle class wealth. Not necessarily from illegal revenue in Sicily either but businesses they ran there. Many bosses came from well off families with property, assets, etc. and used those to gain social influence, do business with other mafia members, and give employment to members. You didn't really see poor bandits and thugs fight their way to the top early on.

They use the same network to further their legitimate businesses as they would illegal activities and sometimes they cross over but not always. Big mythology that all legitimate businesses are "fronts" for illegal activity. Some are, some aren't.

The problem talking about the mafia is the need to paint it with one brush stroke. It's wrong to say it's based on criminal operations, but it's equally wrong to say it's not based on them. It's a venn diagram where all kinds of things overlap and at the center is power and control of resources for a very exclusive and insular group who have turned it into an ethnic tradition.

It's basically libertarianism gone haywire when it comes to economics, with extreme social conservativism when it comes to culture. They all vote Republican not because they fit in perfectly with modern conservatives but because it lends itself to their system more than the left.

Italy is different......


I mostly agree.... but we gotta be careful of projecting qualities that other mafiosi possess, onto other mafiosi. For every " Aristocrat" like a Navarra, theres a young Turk like a Leggio. If theres a Talvaruso who can take a restaurant from 5 to 21 employees within a year, like, an actual good businessman, you can also have Ndrangheta, opening up strings of restaurants, just to use the business accounts to move money through. You can have a totally legit Todaro, who picks a drug lord for an underboss.

I could go on and on....

[stubbs]

Great discussion here, lots of good points all around. I do agree with the view that, while crime is a huge part of the life, it isn’t the only thing that ties made members together. Like B said, there’s some venn diagrams of overlap.

But to play devil’s advocate, if crime isn’t the underlying reason for having the mafia in the first place, then why don’t we see even more legitimate people getting made in order to use the mob network as a sort of Italian-American Chamber of Commerce or Rotary Club or whatever?

Why isn’t the mafia then a mix of 50/50 criminal and legitimate members? It seems like it’s closer to 95/5. You could have some members involved in illegal bookmaking and loansharking, using the mafia network to meditate street disputes. But, then have other legitimate members who use the network to meet other business / industry contacts to expand their legitimate businesses. The legitimate business guys use the mafia network to obtain financing and loans, to meet food suppliers for their restaurants, etc.

Carlos Marcello’s son Joseph Marcello is described as being rich in his twenties after he inherited his father’s real estate holdings and had no use for the life. source of quote below

Joseph "Little Joe" Marcello, the only son of Carlos, had apparently never shown any disposition to be involved in the Mafia clan his father had controlled. He had become a multimillionaire in his mid-twenties through asset transfers from his father and seemed content to lead the life of a rich, indulged observer.

So, then why wouldn’t someone like Joe Marcello, a wealthy legitimate civilian and son of a powerful boss, join the mafia to tap into the wider network of Italian businessmen nationwide? Why would he have felt there was no value in following in his father’s footsteps, except for the fact he was born rich and didn’t need or want to involve himself in crime?

Let me put it from another perspective: If the mafia were truly not guided by crime, then why didn’t mob families over the years keep making new members, even if those new recruits were 100% legitimate? Wouldn’t there be more benefit to keep adding new members to keep the network alive and to keep helping each other with their legitimate businesses?

I agree with what CC and B are saying, but just wanted to think about it from another angle.

[Wiseguy]

Maybe I'm stating the obvious but the Irish and Jewish examples end once those gangsters died out and their descendants down through the years went legit.

This is actually what happened even to the Italians in some of the cities with a family that went extinct. Cosa Nostra is gone there but you see a lot of familiar surnames in the legitimate upper-middle class and wealthy spheres.

You can see that in some unions in Providence, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Cleveland and especially Chicago. Descendants of mob guys running a union but not in behalf of any criminal organization. They've joined law abiding society.

Vast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Why isn’t the mafia then a mix of 50/50 criminal and legitimate members? It seems like it’s closer to 95/5. You could have some members involved in illegal bookmaking and loansharking, using the mafia network to meditate street disputes. But, then have other legitimate members who use the network to meet other business / industry contacts to expand their legitimate businesses. The legitimate business guys use the mafia network to obtain financing and loans, to meet food suppliers for their restaurants, etc.

What you described above is actually what the Mafia in New York is. It's closer to 50/50 than 95/5.

[B.]

Vast majority of members are Republicans, so are their associates, friends, families, etc. Many were open Trump supporters.

Even the Sicilian mafia was/is traditionally conservative.

What are we basing that on? We've all seen the news articles about Rosotti and Staluppi donating to Bush back in the day. And the online gossip about some Philly guys liking Trump. But those are the only ones I can think of off hand. Traditionally at least, the connection was overwhelmingly with the Democratic political machine. Due, in no small part, to the unions. I'm not saying there hasn't been any change over the years. And like Capeci has said, most of them have a certain amount of patriotism, ironically enough. And are conservative in many ways, though I think that's due more to the Italian heritage and Catholicism than anything related to the Republican Party.

Cruise through their social media accounts and those of their family/friends. Look at their longstanding history going back to Sicily. Most of the guys who have podcasts lean right if they're not full-blown Republicans.

Some early Sicilian mafiosi supported the Fascist Party before Mussolini started targeting them. The mafia was involved in all kinds of anti-socialist activity in Sicily, sometimes violently.

It's a fundamentally conservative organization and that is usually (but not always) reflected in who they support. Their self-interest is of course #1 and transcends politics if they feel any party/politician/group isn't serving them properly.

I consider the mafia extremely socially conservative and economically libertarian in theory, with their economics being obviously corrupt and self-serving which libertarian policies are naturally subject to (making them more attractive as a "philosophy" than an actual "policy").

[B.]

Joe Bonanno asked me to post this for him.



Beyond some questionable claims (narcotics/extortion/number of members involved in illicit activity), I don't disagree with the basic structure of operations as he explained it.

[Pogo The Clown]

They helped steal an election and put that crypto commie JFK in the White House. Damn them all to hell just for that.


Pogo

[SolarSolano]

Wasn't Alite at the Actual Jan 6 riot in D.C.? Surprised a mob sociopath would like Trump

[B.]

We can talk about the mob's politics objectively without adding opinions that will obviously derail the thread.

[Pogo The Clown]

That is Frattos entire MO. He is a stalker and a creep.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Joe Bonanno asked me to post this for him.



Beyond some questionable claims (narcotics/extortion/number of members involved in illicit activity), I don't disagree with the basic structure of operations as he explained it.

Again, are we talking about the Mafia of Bonanno's day or today?

I'd argue his claim that he didn't allow the family to engage in narcotics or extortion is more than questionable. And even in his day (to say nothing of now), to claim a minority of members were engaged in full time illicit activity is pretty dubious.

The part where he says, "Family memberships do not entitle one to monetary stipend; it simply places the family member in a society of friends who can help each other through a network of connections," is the only part that really applies today. But that is only initial membership. Generally speaking, it's expected for soldiers to kick up to their captain, and captains to kick up to the administration.

And I should clarify that I think the majority of members in New York, past and present, have been engaged in both legal and illegal activities. Stradling both worlds has always been a central trait of the Mafia.