Cleveland circa '65

[Stroccos]

One major player we forgot to add was babe triscaro

Also forgot Sam Scalish and 'Deangelus Columbus as you sent me their photos, there's Martelli or Martinelli too.

Go through the chart again, make a list of missing names you want added:

1) Tiscaro
2) Scalish, S
3) Columbus Deangelus (if I'm recalling that correctly).
4) ....

i believe its spelled deangelo but i also seen it d'angelo but when he was indicted i think it was deangelo ,

Well, from my experience D'Angelo when not a surname is primarily a black name, I've met two in life (and also watched The Wire). But each area is different and some of the names Itals took in later generations are different than NY or Philly or my Detroit. Take Carmen for example, to me that's a Puerto Rican woman's name, I never met any Italian who spelled it m-e-n until I moved to Florida and met a Carmen Persico.

Is is first name Columbus or Deangelus?

Sorry my mistake it's Michael deangelo who was in Columbus

His real name is Michele Deangelo

Thanks for the info, I wonder if the syndicate ever knew he was dry snitching his competition

[Angelo Santino]

You know, I gotta say, the notion that Scalish didn't make any new members out of fear of informants doesn't hold weight given the amount of associated relatives he, along with others in his admin, had working in tandem. The informant factor could have been a factoring point, but not the only purpose. By all accounts, it seems like Scalish nor Milano were more concerned with living among the legitimate community or at least being seen as such rather than oiling and maintaining a criminal empire that was the Cleveland mob. In other words no "This is gonna be a Cosa Nostra" speech for 40 plus years which is why by 1970 the ranking members didn't even recall how to conduct a ceremony.

It reminds me of Pueblo, it died out in the 60's and rather than attempt to further their criminal secret society they opted to set legitimate relatives up locally in the community at their criminal expense. You see this in all major cities where the LCN faded.

AND.. as for this chart, we only have ONE captain in the city of Cleveland: Frank Brancato. Did Cleveland have one crew in 1965 that by 1985 had broken into 4 crews given all the captains were based in Cleveland? I do have confirmed from an informant that Cleveland had two crews in 1927, one crew John King was a soldier in.

[Stroccos]

You know, I gotta say, the notion that Scalish didn't make any new members out of fear of informants doesn't hold weight given the amount of associated relatives he, along with others in his admin, had working in tandem. The informant factor could have been a factoring point, but not the only purpose. By all accounts, it seems like Scalish nor Milano were more concerned with living among the legitimate community or at least being seen as such rather than oiling and maintaining a criminal empire that was the Cleveland mob. In other words no "This is gonna be a Cosa Nostra" speech for 40 plus years which is why by 1970 the ranking members didn't even recall how to conduct a ceremony.

It reminds me of Pueblo, it died out in the 60's and rather than attempt to further their criminal secret society they opted to set legitimate relatives up locally in the community at their criminal expense. You see this in all major cities where the LCN faded.

AND.. as for this chart, we only have ONE captain in the city of Cleveland: Frank Brancato. Did Cleveland have one crew in 1965 that by 1985 had broken into 4 crews given all the captains were based in Cleveland? I do have confirmed from an informant that Cleveland had two crews in 1927, one crew John King was a soldier in.

its was probably many factors , but imo it was about money scalish was making big money off the skim , the unions and vending routes , he probably didnt want to cut up the money.

[Angelo Santino]

its was probably many factors , but imo it was about money scalish was making big money off the skim , the unions and vending routes , he probably didnt want to cut up the money.

Allan May wrote an article back in the year 2000 which I feel raised a few interesting points. There are flaws with his logic like his never having read Frank Costello going through a ceremony so it didn't happen. One of those fallen tree in the woods arguments I reckon. But here's an excerpt relevant to this thread:

Ray Ferritto, the Mob informant credited with the murder of Cleveland mobster Danny Greene, told British journalist Martin Short during the taping of the “Crime, Inc.” documentaries, that by killing Greene he would then become a made member and share in the profits. At the time of Cleveland boss John Scalish’s death, Cleveland had very few made members left, and most of them were old men. I believe the reason for this is like Ferritto said, you become made and you get to share in the profits. The math goes like this; the fewer made members to share the profits, the bigger the cut.Even when the bombing war broke out in the mid-1970s and the Cleveland Family decided to make new members, did they initiate younger men like Eugene Ciasullo, Allie Calabrese, or Butchie Cisternino? No they initiated John Calandra, who was 60 years old, and Anthony Libertore who was 56.

There's something to this "less splits/bigger share" argument. Lonardo admitted as much when he stated he received a larger portion of the Vegas skim upon being promoted to Underboss. But it kinda stands in stark contrast to the modus operandi of New York City's trickle up economics where underlings are not entitled to anything their superiors make. This was made famous by Donnie Brasco and the Sopranos often showcasing lower members working strenuously to send money up rather than being allowed to share in profits. And this may correlate as why certain Families maintained large numbers while others limited it to an exclusive few.

This is from an dated British mob documentary Crime Inc, a series I feel has aged quite well and stands superior to much of today's documentaries which are absolute shit.
1:33-2:21 Former Chicago associate Gerry DeNono discusses "made" status.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82kHZwONXGU

[Stroccos]

its was probably many factors , but imo it was about money scalish was making big money off the skim , the unions and vending routes , he probably didnt want to cut up the money.

Allan May wrote an article back in the year 2000 which I feel raised a few interesting points. There are flaws with his logic like his never having read Frank Costello going through a ceremony so it didn't happen. One of those fallen tree in the woods arguments I reckon. But here's an excerpt relevant to this thread:

Ray Ferritto, the Mob informant credited with the murder of Cleveland mobster Danny Greene, told British journalist Martin Short during the taping of the “Crime, Inc.” documentaries, that by killing Greene he would then become a made member and share in the profits. At the time of Cleveland boss John Scalish’s death, Cleveland had very few made members left, and most of them were old men. I believe the reason for this is like Ferritto said, you become made and you get to share in the profits. The math goes like this; the fewer made members to share the profits, the bigger the cut.Even when the bombing war broke out in the mid-1970s and the Cleveland Family decided to make new members, did they initiate younger men like Eugene Ciasullo, Allie Calabrese, or Butchie Cisternino? No they initiated John Calandra, who was 60 years old, and Anthony Libertore who was 56.

There's something to this "less splits/bigger share" argument. Lonardo admitted as much when he stated he received a larger portion of the Vegas skim upon being promoted to Underboss. But it kinda stands in stark contrast to the modus operandi of New York City's trickle up economics where underlings are not entitled to anything their superiors make. This was made famous by Donnie Brasco and the Sopranos often showcasing lower members working strenuously to send money up rather than being allowed to share in profits. And this may correlate as why certain Families maintained large numbers while others limited it to an exclusive few.

This is from an dated British mob documentary Crime Inc, a series I feel has aged quite well and stands superior to much of today's documentaries which are absolute shit.
1:33-2:21 Former Chicago associate Gerry DeNono discusses "made" status.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82kHZwONXGU

Another thing to consider is it possible scalish didn't have permission to make new guys . As weren't the NYC books closed as well ? So combine that with no desire to expand and we have no made guys for 30 years ,

[Angelo Santino]

Another Black Hand Forum Collaboration.

MANY THANKS to STROCCOS for his hard work, research and photos. Thanks also to FriendofFamily, JCB, FriendofHenry and Pogo for their input and assistance.


https://image.ibb.co/cHtNda/Cleveland_Chart_A.gif


https://image.ibb.co/iHOSBv/Cleveland_Chart_B.gif

viewtopic.php?f=32&p=57211#p57211

[Stroccos]

Thanks to you as well , charts look great

[Angelo Santino]

If there's any other type of CL charts you wish to knockout in the future. Do let me know. The Youngstown War, the Danny Greene War, I got no problem making whatever just as so long as the info and photo is supplied.

Looking forward to this 1985 chart as it sounds like its more associates than anything else. It'll be an informative window for me as well as everyone else into the last days of the Cleveland mob.

[FriendofFamily]

Oh since we are getting down to Spelling corrections:

The Carabbia name is spelt that a way <------ being funny on the correction

The way you currently have it is Carrabia which is incorrect.

I think we really need to add Jack White to James Licavoli's name. Angelo Lonardo and Milton "Maishe" Rockman called him Jack as well as Tony Delsanter.

[FriendofHenry]

Anthony Delsanter - who's that? I only knew him as Tony
I think Anthony was Jim Pace's buddy

[Angelo Santino]

Would have been nice had you guys mentioned these points earlier, I mean it's only been 22 pages of me asking over and over again. If the only complaint is nicknames then it's not a big deal.

For 1985 let's make sure everything is included before I finalize.

[FriendofFamily]

Us old guys are a little slow on the draw and the eye sight isn't what it use to be

[Angelo Santino]

No problem, you were a tremendous help and this shit isn't easy. On hand I'm a researcher asking the specifics of how/why Delsanter was a capo answering to another capo (Licavoli) and for guys such as yourself, I think it's as simple as "Tony Dope ran Warren, his superior was Jack White." I get that. And I agree it's pretty irrelevant but these questions need asking even if we conclude the information doesn't exist.

All this was new to me, I learned quite a bit. I'm much more familiar and into Cleveland 1900-1930 and it's good to look and see how things evolved. Certain things such as Cleveland having activities in Akron date pretty much back to the first decade of the 20th century. I wonder if anyone ever heard of who Leo Moceri replaced as head of Akron because I'm quite certain he wasn't the first. There was activity in Warren but nothing I could connect directly (doesn't mean it didn't happen). I'm actually fairly certain I could chart Cleveland's formation with about 65-70% accuracy or at least contribute quite generously to the argument.

If you'd like go through the chart again and pick out anything else: Carabbia, Jack White (didn't I list that nickname) and whoever else such as Orbie or whatever Carabbia's brother's nickname is. I'll add it when I finish 85.

[Stroccos]

No problem, you were a tremendous help and this shit isn't easy. On hand I'm a researcher asking the specifics of how/why Delsanter was a capo answering to another capo (Licavoli) and for guys such as yourself, I think it's as simple as "Tony Dope ran Warren, his superior was Jack White." I get that. And I agree it's pretty irrelevant but these questions need asking even if we conclude the information doesn't exist.

All this was new to me, I learned quite a bit. I'm much more familiar and into Cleveland 1900-1930 and it's good to look and see how things evolved. Certain things such as Cleveland having activities in Akron date pretty much back to the first decade of the 20th century. I wonder if anyone ever heard of who Leo Moceri replaced as head of Akron because I'm quite certain he wasn't the first. There was activity in Warren but nothing I could connect directly (doesn't mean it didn't happen). I'm actually fairly certain I could chart Cleveland's formation with about 65-70% accuracy or at least contribute quite generously to the argument.

If you'd like go through the chart again and pick out anything else: Carabbia, Jack White (didn't I list that nickname) and whoever else such as Orbie or whatever Carabbia's brother's nickname is. I'll add it when I finish 85.

here is my take , licavoli was the boss of youngstown/warren etc he promotes delsanter to oversea those rackets , licavoli would retain his capo spot , delsanter is the boss of those rackets still giving a piece to jack white, while delsanter handles the day to day , delsanter/licavoli then lets ronnie carabbia run the struthers/youngstown rackets. While carabbia reported to delsanter , everyone reported to jack white, But the made guys at least answered to scaiish as well, look at the farah hit, apparently Brancato tried to step in for Farah ,and licavoli/moceri/delsanter got it approved anyway.

Frank LoCascio , carl rospo may of been akron top guys in there day. The lafatch brothers to a point as well. MOceri gets out of prison as is appointed head of summit county by john scalish and jack white , Locascio died in 62 , rospo in 64, we have to remeber many of these guys were players during prohibition as the years went on they became not as active or willing to do some things . Moceri comes to town and starts trying to take terroity in youngstown etc from the " old guys" according to marry ferrall informents. so we have to asusme he is doing this with the blessing of jack white and scalish.

plenty of activity in warren in the early days . Dejanero was a early political boss there

[Angelo Santino]

It's a good take. But in the first couple of pages we weren't really sure and still aren't what Official posts Licavoli and Delsanter had other than leadership positions, it could have been one capo answering to a streetboss or he could have simply been for all intents and purposes Acting Capo regardless if that terminology was used in Ohio. On one hand it's a question that's gotta be raised while at the same time it's simply not that important.

Frank LoCascio, Carl Rospo and Lafatch? What year/decade range would they have been?