Cleveland Crime Family

[Angelo Santino]

I think there is a real possibility Frattiano misremembered and they ended up saying Montreal when they meant Hamilton/Buffalo, the book is filled with little errors like that. Its even possible the author did it on purpose because honestly who the fuck ever heard of Hamilton.

I also misremembered part of it and Brooklier didn't ask Jimmy himself to go to Canada but rather he wanted Jimmy to introduce Longo to a Tony Randazzo and it was this Randazzo who would relay the message to 'Montreal'. Here's the passage;

Who the fuck has heard of Hamilton? You mean where Salvatore Maranzano kept a residence before becoming boss of bosses? Where the Buffalo, Bonanno, and Los Angeles families are planting flags, where mafia murders still happen regularly, and the ghost of Stefano Magaddino still haunts? I mostly kid, but seriously, I wouldn't have heard of Hamilton if it weren't for this stuff. Just another unlikely twist in the mafia's long, strange history.

Thanks for adding more, man. I need to re-read the Last Mafioso. Some of those books I read so many years ago that there might be other weird little tidbits that would mean something different to us now.

If Randazzo is a Detroit member, interesting a Detroit member would be introducing an LA member to members in Canada (whether it be Hamilton or Montreal). Detroit is near Canada and had its own small Canadian group but we don't think of them having strong ties. LA boss Nick Licata told Frank Bompensiero when he lived in Detroit he used to run bootleg liquor from Canada into the US though I assume it was limited to Windsor->Detroit.

If you're Ital from MI and live in central or Detroit you've heard of Hamilton. I was never there. My cousin married someone (non-Italian) from there, I have another relative who either moved there or lived there for awhile. The Gallos of central MI were from Windsor or Hamilton I think, one of the sisters spoke fluent French. But like you guys, I never heard of it in any conjunction with organized crime.

Regarding Randazzo, Detroit is a border town, I don't know if they had a formal crew in Canada but they certainly had enough members there who were answerable to Detroit.

[Wiseguy]

Seems like the most current message from the FBI to the public on the overall state of LCN is on the FBI.gov site under the heading "Transnational Organized Crime" (not sure the exact publication date but from the content it can be inferred that it was sometime after 2015). The section of interest here states:

The LCN is most active in the New York metropolitan area, parts of New Jersey, Philadelphia, Detroit, Chicago, and New England. The major LCN families include the five New York-based families—Bonanno, Colombo, Gambino, Genovese, and Luchese; the Newark-based DeCavalcante family; the New England LCN; the Philadelphia LCN; and the Chicago Outfit. They have members in other major cities and are involved in international crimes.

That part of their website has been there since 2010. News from the government can come a number of ways.

For example, a 2010 Congressional Report and the 2011 Justice Department press release (from Mafia Takedown Day) both listed those same cities. And in 2016, FBI agent Jeffrey Sallet made the comment about how only the 5 NY families are really a priority at this point.

Yep no question. They are lurking in the shadows with Cleveland, KC and LA.


Pogo

for buffalo there are violi wiretaps, several organized-crime murders in hamilton/toronto, there is much more than you have in kc or cleveland; if it is true that todaro is boss, violi underboos, natale luppino captain there is a structure and it should be considered a viable crime family... if fbi considered new orleans viable with 5 members in the '60 i don't see why not buffalo with even more members

The Buffalo argument is going to keep getting moved. We need a boss, hierarchy and structure, Buffalo has that, bah it's surely hype. It's the RCMP that reported it, well they're not the FBI. Violi says he's underboss, meh he's just shining people on. Bonannos coming to meet, hey Canadian trout fishing is good that time of year. Only one case came out in 20 years, fuck I forgot about the 3 case minimum rule. I don't know where to go further with this. The Buffalo thread was 300+ of guys making the same points every 20 pages. I'm getting tired of saying "it's their organization" and I'm sure others are too.

You guys keep talking as if the jury is still out on this. Like it's a "too be determined." The verdict already came in, the lights were turned off, and everyone went home. Meanwhile you guys are still sitting in the gallery in the dark waiting for something to happen.

As long as we continue to disagree on what these groups actually are and how they function in proximity with each other we're going to keep having the same debate. If we're going to view the mafia through the prism as solely a criminal gang complete with a structure with busy worker bee soldiers earnin and churnin for their bosses through book, robbery, murders, loansharking then it becomes very black and white. This theory disqualifies everything outside of NY, Phila., NE, Chicago and half of the families in Sicily wouldn't be considered viable either. It's never come out that one boss ever told another he's not viable. We need to understand that this is an outsider characterization that the members themselves subscribe no value to or belief in.

Again, that's understood. But the people (not you) who we are arguing with aren't taking that approach. They believe Buffalo, Cleveland, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc. should also be included in that list above. Hence the debate.

[Angelo Santino]

Again, that's understood. But the people (not you) who we are arguing with aren't taking that approach. They believe Buffalo, Cleveland, Kansas City, Los Angeles, etc. should also be included in that list above. Hence the debate.

I agree. This here is the debate. You need to nip this type of stuff in the bud before it snowballs exponentially and takes us back to the early 2010's when every silent family was characterized as a super secret machine that outsmarted the FBI. It took ten years but you and Pogo fought the good fight and managed to clean alot of it up. You're not directly responsible for but you both contributed to the evidence-based culture that we've adapted. It wasn't fun, it wasn't popular and you made more than enough enemies along the way but right is right.

I must ask though, in this thread or any recent discussions in the past few years, has anyone advocated they are coming back, on the rise or re-surging? Occasionally posters do ask about a certain family, but before you even respond there'll be 4-5 posters coming forward to echo what you were about to say.

The mafia is going away like the cowboys. No one is on the other side of this issue. You guys are fighting a war that you've already won. No one is accepting anything with receipts or arguments based on confirmed sources. But when the criteria calls for discounting information from confirmed sources because it goes against the grain, then it becomes a burden on the deeper knowledge of the subject. This mafia has never been a topic with absolutes, there's things we'll never know but they should be explored.

[Wiseguy]

I must ask though, in this thread or any recent discussions in the past few years, has anyone advocated they are coming back, on the rise or re-surging?

At least with Buffalo, that's what several have claimed.

But when the criteria calls for discounting information from confirmed sources because it goes against the grain, then it becomes a burden on the deeper knowledge of the subject.

I'm not sure that warrants changing the debate altogether, or at least moving the goal posts to what constitutes a family. Especially when, as I said, those who are arguing against the feds/indictments are not really going that route. They're arguing the families in those cities are not defunct but are active or "could be" active.

If people wanted to take the position that there is a family anywhere there is even a single remaining member, or a few members, irregardless of what the FBI says or level activity, I suppose they can. That's if they really want to argue there are still 20 or families in the U.S.

[B.]

I am cautious about the west coast because the only real source we have is Fratianno and his opinions influenced Craig Fiato and Kenji Gallo who continued the narrative. All of them paint Milano as the real docile don. If Tommy Gambino was under since at least 2001, that jives with the time Milano lost the sit to DiLeonardo and that may have been his response to that. Having Gambino would have likely strengthened the relationship and Milano's ability to get better deals with NY. From a functional perspective, an underboss wasn't necessary so it had to have served some political purpose.

Pete Milano and Tommy Gambino have similar stories. They were both sons of highly regarded mafia members from other areas who came to LA and joined a family that had limited underworld opportunities long before either of them arrived. Neither of them brought an impressive reputation of their own with them.

- Milano was from Cleveland, whose organization was arguably in worse shape than LA. Even if he stayed in touch with "Joe Loose" to keep the Cleveland->LA pipeline hot, what could the two of them cook up?

- Gambino is a different story. In the last ten years we've found out that his uncle is a boss in Palermo, his father Rosario is still active with the Sicilian mafia, and his relatives and childhood friends are the ruling faction of the Gambino family in NYC. In the past year there have been three cases showing increasingly strong ties between the US and Sicilian mafia, one of these cases involving Gambino's immediate relatives and another that made reference to putting Sicilian mafia slot machines in California.

This doesn't mean Tommy Gambino is suddenly seen as a tough gangster and cowering shop owners are dropping off envelopes for him in LA, but if anyone is going to be able to do something with his "union card" on the west coast, it is someone with Tommy Gambino's connections to prominent mafia groups. He wanted mafia membership even though his father and relatives were all serving long prison sentences and he accepted a promotion to underboss. It's not as if he was scared to turn down Pete Milano's offer of promotion.

Why would Milano promote Gambino to underboss? Many of these guys want to keep their organizations alive if they can. It's not illegal to be a member of the mafia and induct/promote members like it is in Sicily, where even mafia association is a serious crime. Unless they lose interest, turn against the mafia, or truly have no candidates, I don't see what the incentive is not to induct members and maintain connections when possible (and it's not always possible).

Milano was born into the mafia, as was Tommy Gambino, and was willing to be a mafia boss at a time where it gave him little material benefit. As DiLeonardo's story shows, Milano still wanted to play the role even in the mid-1990s. Same thing for Joe Todaro today, who like Milano has been surrounded by the mafia his entire life. He has Goodfellas quotes on his delivery driver's hats. It might not be what it was, but for these guys being in the mafia is not like a goth phase they went through as teenagers that they now laugh at. It's their identity and even if they're not killing people and counting stacks of syndicate cash, the organization is who they are.

If Milano wanted to give the organization a chance at surviving in some form, Gambino was the well-connected choice. The LA family has always depended on members with ties to other cities. The Dragnas with the Luccheses, Licata and Brooklier with Detroit, Milano with Cleveland, Tommy Gambino with the NYC Gambinos and Sicily. If Milano had an interest in the LA family staying alive even another five years, it makes sense why he'd point to Gambino even if there's very little to be done in LA. Except, you know, induct Canadian real estate agents who get murdered in an Ontario mob war.

--

If I wrote a movie about the LA family, I would include a scene showing Pete Milano on his deathbed:

Milano: Massino, come here... I am going to make you the new boss. You must remember one thing... to be a successful boss.... Wiseguy must not believe we exist. Wiseguy must not believe... it is even possible... do you understand?!
Gambino: Zu Pietro, don't speak. You must rest.
Milano: I am not long for this world... and I must pay God for my sins. Massino... you will be a good boss. Just remember... Wiseguy...

Cue Tommy Gambino leaving the hospital and immediately going to Disneyland where he uses a payphone inside of the park to call Sicilian mafia members. Sicilian mafia hitmen fly to LA and on Gambino's orders they begin participating in violent mafia warfare in Hamilton, Ontario. A montage of the violence is shown.

Wiseguy is then shown turning on his computer and reading news about the Los Angeles family's involvement in the Ontario mob war. He screams, "It is not possible!" as Tommy Gambino's face is superimposed on the screen. Gambino's mouth turns into an evil grin and the scene fades to black.

The movie wins an Oscar.

[Stroccos]

I am cautious about the west coast because the only real source we have is Fratianno and his opinions influenced Craig Fiato and Kenji Gallo who continued the narrative. All of them paint Milano as the real docile don. If Tommy Gambino was under since at least 2001, that jives with the time Milano lost the sit to DiLeonardo and that may have been his response to that. Having Gambino would have likely strengthened the relationship and Milano's ability to get better deals with NY. From a functional perspective, an underboss wasn't necessary so it had to have served some political purpose.

Pete Milano and Tommy Gambino have similar stories. They were both sons of highly regarded mafia members from other areas who came to LA and joined a family that had limited underworld opportunities long before either of them arrived. Neither of them brought an impressive reputation of their own with them.

- Milano was from Cleveland, whose organization was arguably in worse shape than LA. Even if he stayed in touch with "Joe Loose" to keep the Cleveland->LA pipeline hot, what could the two of them cook up?

- Gambino is a different story. In the last ten years we've found out that his uncle is a boss in Palermo, his father Rosario is still active with the Sicilian mafia, and his relatives and childhood friends are the ruling faction of the Gambino family in NYC. In the past year there have been three cases showing increasingly strong ties between the US and Sicilian mafia, one of these cases involving Gambino's immediate relatives and another that made reference to putting Sicilian mafia slot machines in California.

This doesn't mean Tommy Gambino is suddenly seen as a tough gangster and cowering shop owners are dropping off envelopes for him in LA, but if anyone is going to be able to do something with his "union card" on the west coast, it is someone with Tommy Gambino's connections to prominent mafia groups. He wanted mafia membership even though his father and relatives were all serving long prison sentences and he accepted a promotion to underboss. It's not as if he was scared to turn down Pete Milano's offer of promotion.

Why would Milano promote Gambino to underboss? Many of these guys want to keep their organizations alive if they can. It's not illegal to be a member of the mafia and induct/promote members like it is in Sicily, where even mafia association is a serious crime. Unless they lose interest, turn against the mafia, or truly have no candidates, I don't see what the incentive is not to induct members and maintain connections when possible (and it's not always possible).

Milano was born into the mafia, as was Tommy Gambino, and was willing to be a mafia boss at a time where it gave him little material benefit. As DiLeonardo's story shows, Milano still wanted to play the role even in the mid-1990s. Same thing for Joe Todaro today, who like Milano has been surrounded by the mafia his entire life. He has Goodfellas quotes on his delivery driver's hats. It might not be what it was, but for these guys being in the mafia is not like a goth phase they went through as teenagers that they now laugh at. It's their identity and even if they're not killing people and counting stacks of syndicate cash, the organization is who they are.

If Milano wanted to give the organization a chance at surviving in some form, Gambino was the well-connected choice. The LA family has always depended on members with ties to other cities. The Dragnas with the Luccheses, Licata and Brooklier with Detroit, Milano with Cleveland, Tommy Gambino with the NYC Gambinos and Sicily. If Milano had an interest in the LA family staying alive even another five years, it makes sense why he'd point to Gambino even if there's very little to be done in LA. Except, you know, induct Canadian real estate agents who get murdered in an Ontario mob war.

--

If I wrote a movie about the LA family, I would include a scene showing Pete Milano on his deathbed:

Milano: Massino, come here... I am going to make you the new boss. You must remember one thing... to be a successful boss.... Wiseguy must not believe we exist. Wiseguy must not believe... it is even possible... do you understand?!
Gambino: Zu Pietro, don't speak. You must rest.
Milano: I am not long for this world... and I must pay God for my sins. Massino... you will be a good boss. Just remember... Wiseguy...

Cue Tommy Gambino leaving the hospital and immediately going to Disneyland where he uses a payphone inside of the park to call Sicilian mafia members. Sicilian mafia hitmen fly to LA and on Gambino's orders they begin participating in violent mafia warfare in Hamilton, Ontario. A montage of the violence is shown.

Wiseguy is then shown turning on his computer and reading news about the Los Angeles family's involvement in the Ontario mob war. He screams, "It is not possible!" as Tommy Gambino's face is superimposed on the screen. Gambino's mouth turns into an evil grin and the scene fades to black.

The movie wins an Oscar.

i belive pete milano first moved to LA in the 1950's , he had a pipeline to Cleveland but like u said did it amount to anything he came to visit in the mid 90's and met up with nick nardi and his son in law Russell masetta and it got nick nardi tossed out of the teamsters,

on the buffalo note could Stephen cino have any connection to Ontario he was made in LA and from buffalo ?

[B.]

I was wondering if Milano still visited Cleveland, good to know.

Pete Milano's wife was killed in 1969 in a mud slide. Frank Bompensiero attended the funeral and brought his friend Cleveland member Leo Moceri. Aside from that it looks like the only Cleveland people at the funeral were Milano's relatives and of course LA family leadership attended. Bompensiero said a friend of Milano's named Sam or Joe "Cheratino" (ph) attended and both Milano and "Cheratino" were proposed for membership in LA at the time. Anyone know who that might be?

Frank Milano ended up in Mexico and spent a lot of time in Los Angeles before he died and Bompensiero said Milano was still heavily in contact with mafia members up until his death. He didn't say what family Milano belonged to. DiLeonardo said Valenti from Rochester ended up under Pete Milano when he moved to Tucson. Based on that and Milano's nephew becoming an LA member, I'm wondering if Milano transferred to LA or stayed under Cleveland.

--

Back to Iavarone, when he was killed, Peter Edwards cited a "former police investigator" who told him Iavarone had ties to New York. He didn't specify if this meant Buffalo, NYC, or somewhere else. His wife's social media page shows a vacation to NYC in 2016. And you guys are going to love this... the Iavarones took a vacation to Southern California two months before Albert was murdered.

[Angelo Santino]

I must ask though, in this thread or any recent discussions in the past few years, has anyone advocated they are coming back, on the rise or re-surging?

At least with Buffalo, that's what several have claimed.

Has someone claimed Buffalo is growing larger everyday or are they discussing information that has come out that you don't agree with. There is a difference.

But when the criteria calls for discounting information from confirmed sources because it goes against the grain, then it becomes a burden on the deeper knowledge of the subject.

I'm not sure that warrants changing the debate altogether, or at least moving the goal posts to what constitutes a family. Especially when, as I said, those who are arguing against the feds/indictments are not really going that route. They're arguing the families in those cities are not defunct but are active or "could be" active.

It does when your theory requires us to discount connections and affiliations because they don't lead to where you want them. You have laid out a criteria for what constitutes a family, Buffalo met that 100%, but then you moved the goal post by saying the sources aren't credible. You're not in any position shoot down the RCMP, you can have lingering doubts but to say they made the entire thing up is insulting and arrogant.

If people wanted to take the position that there is a family anywhere there is even a single remaining member, or a few members, irregardless of what the FBI says or level activity, I suppose they can. That's if they really want to argue there are still 20 or families in the U.S.

And what about the mafia members themselves? If Dileonardo says NO was still recognized by NY as a Family in 2002 are you going to argue with him? Tell him he's a fanboy who doesn't know his own organization, is he playing the hometown or Italian card?

Second, no one here is saying there's 20 families, absolutely no one. When information surfaces to suggest certain groups may still be recognized, we investigate. I think everyone agreed that Buffalo was dead, then info came out to suggest perhaps it wasn't and we adapted our way of thinking. Back when Montagna was deported to Canada I argued he was a 'man without a family,' once information came out to suggest that he was involved I didn't start claiming everyone wants Montagna to be somebody he's not, I swallowed my pride (actually no, you need an ego to have pride) and admitted I was wrong. Won't be the last time it happens either.

Your theory is supported by the feds, mine by the members themselves. These disciplines focus on different elements that compliment each other when weighed together, like a pivot. To go entirely by one and ignore the other (on either side) one risks putting themselves at a disadvantage. I understand the viability argument agree with it more often than not, I implore you to try and attempt the same with other disciplines.

[Angelo Santino]

Frank Milano ended up in Mexico and spent a lot of time in Los Angeles before he died and Bompensiero said Milano was still heavily in contact with mafia members up until his death. He didn't say what family Milano belonged to. DiLeonardo said Valenti from Rochester ended up under Pete Milano when he moved to Tucson. Based on that and Milano's nephew becoming an LA member, I'm wondering if Milano transferred to LA or stayed under Cleveland.

I wonder about that myself, it's a good question.

[IrishDave]

Frank Milano ended up in Mexico and spent a lot of time in Los Angeles before he died and Bompensiero said Milano was still heavily in contact with mafia members up until his death. He didn't say what family Milano belonged to. DiLeonardo said Valenti from Rochester ended up under Pete Milano when he moved to Tucson. Based on that and Milano's nephew becoming an LA member, I'm wondering if Milano transferred to LA or stayed under Cleveland.

I wonder about that myself, it's a good question.

In my opinion, Frank stayed with Cleveland. At that point in time I don't think the commission was going to interfere. The commission put Valenti with Milano, but that could go back to weather Rochester was actually an independent family or not. I also remember reading that Frank and Tony wanted Pete to be made in Cleveland but that Pete was already settled in California and refused to leave. I don't remember off hand the book I read that in.

[Angelo Santino]

Frank Milano ended up in Mexico and spent a lot of time in Los Angeles before he died and Bompensiero said Milano was still heavily in contact with mafia members up until his death. He didn't say what family Milano belonged to. DiLeonardo said Valenti from Rochester ended up under Pete Milano when he moved to Tucson. Based on that and Milano's nephew becoming an LA member, I'm wondering if Milano transferred to LA or stayed under Cleveland.

I wonder about that myself, it's a good question.

In my opinion, Frank stayed with Cleveland. At that point in time I don't think the commission was going to interfere. The commission put Valenti with Milano, but that could go back to weather Rochester was actually an independent family or not. I also remember reading that Frank and Tony wanted Pete to be made in Cleveland but that Pete was already settled in California and refused to leave. I don't remember off hand the book I read that in.

Yeah it's hard to tell. If he did transfer to another family then he vacated his position as boss before doing so. Which could go back to what caused Milano to exit, was it planned or was there a problem? I seem to want to say I remember something about him getting in trouble? If there wasn't a problem than chances are he might have been "on the level" to that of an elder like the panels around the country, seasoned members who don't hold a position but had some say in the major decisions involving the group. However there's no evidence CL ever had a panel like Detroit, Tampa, Kansas City and St Louis so this is speculative on my part.

Do we have any evidence of the relationship Frank Milano had with his sucessors?

Just my opinion but getting made in CL was damn near impossible, seems like people were made in other cities and transferred their way in. But I wasn't there and yeah maybe. Perhaps Scalish would have listened to Milano had he recommended his son.

Good post!

[IrishDave]

Frank left Cleveland because he didn't want to get the Al Capone treatment. I believe the IRS was after him and he went to Mexico to avoid that arrest. He then used that time to expand into southern California. But to what extent?

In my opinion he left Cleveland in good standing. Polizzi? Took over the family at that point. Had Frank been chased out of his position then I would think Dragna would have taken offense to him being in California. Not to mention, the commission probably would have a problem with it as well. Also, I don't think Tony Milano ever had an issue with the new powers in Cleveland.

Your right Chris, it does seem hard to get made in Cleveland. Could Pete have gotten made? Maybe. But then again, why wasn't John Nardi, a Milano nephew, never made?

I'm not sure about a panel but in my opinion it seems like Cleveland was always influenced by outside families. I remember reading on this forum that Frank Milano was close to Capone and there were talks of a nation wide power grab. I'll try to find that thread. And then in there Licavoli regime, I believe they were under the influence of Detroit. Why else would Ray Ferritto have to be made in Detroit for killing Danny Green?

[IrishDave]

I'm not sure how to attach a link to an old thread but it was titled Frank Milano and Al Capone

[Angelo Santino]

Here you go, buddy.
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=5400

You raise some very good points.... I'm cooking all day and will respond later.

[bronx]

B. good synopsis