Chicago Outfit Soldier Sentenced

[Pogo The Clown]

They weren’t really off on the numbers. What they did was combine made men with top associates who were not officially made for a variety of reasons but for all purposes were full fledged members of the Outfit. Guys like Schweihs, Bock, Posner to name a few. They just used the term members if I remember correctly and not made members. Remember, even the FBI, with all its info and technology, at that time did not think the Outfit had making ceremonies like the East Coast families. This didn’t come out until Nick Calabrese flipped a couple years later. As for associates, if you actually read the report, it says that they used the estimation that each member had at least 10 associates hence the 70 members and at least 700 associates. And those associates did not mean that they were full time workers for the Outfit. It was a very loose term that could mean a variety of things.

If they said the Outfit had 70 made members and 700-1200 Associates than hell yes they were way off on the numbers considering the Feds had them at 30 members and 100 associates only a decade later. That associate estimate is higher than the estimate for most of the NY families. Again not even close to the relm of possibility.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Funny how your trying to turn this into me being an Outfit fanboy, which is the only real subject that you get off at at night before you go to bed. Going after outfit fanboys!!

Mmm...no, you've done that. You started with a faulty belief about the Outfit and, rather than simply following the evidence, you have since worked backwards trying to support it.

The fact is, this is about you trying to discredit sources that don’t match up with your narrative.

Again, not my narrative. The FBI's narrative. And what the last 20 years show. Quit trying to make this about me.

As I said, what does the CCC report say? That the Outfit is involved in the narcotics trade.

Didn't we just go over this? Regardless of what the report says, it's 23 years old. You've basically sunk your position by even referring to that.

Also, nobody said the Outfit isn't involved in narcotics. What the evidence shows is that Outfit involvement in the drug trade is on a sporadic, inconsistent level by some associates. Not the "deep," "wholesale/importation" level you, Binder, etc. are claiming.

Same goes for it's involvement with street gangs.

Do you think Wayne Johnson pulled that out of his ass? When it comes to Outfit knowledge, this guy actually investigated Outfit guys since the 70s and knew them. So for you to discredit that report is wrong. You sure have a habit of trying to discredited sources that don’t match your narrative. I mean there is an entire Buffalo thread that is 300 plus pages because of you.

There you go again. Do you think if you repeat something long enough it just magically comes true? Not my narrative. What the FBI and other law enforcement say and the indictments show.

That Buffalo thread went as long as it did because people want to believe the same thing about Buffalo that you do about Chicago.

They weren’t really off on the numbers. What they did was combine made men with top associates who were not officially made for a variety of reasons but for all purposes were full fledged members of the Outfit. Guys like Schweihs, Bock, Posner to name a few. They just used the term members if I remember correctly and not made members. Remember, even the FBI, with all its info and technology, at that time did not think the Outfit had making ceremonies like the East Coast families. This didn’t come out until Nick Calabrese flipped a couple years later. As for associates, if you actually read the report, it says that they used the estimation that each member had at least 10 associates hence the 70 members and at least 700 associates. And those associates did not mean that they were full time workers for the Outfit. It was a very loose term that could mean a variety of things.

If they said the Outfit had 70 made members and 700-1200 Associates than hell yes they were way off on the numbers considering the Feds had them at 30 members and 100 associates only a decade later. That associate estimate is higher than the estimate for most of the NY families. Again not even close to the relm of possibility.


Pogo

Yup. And it goes without saying that the most recent info holds the most weight. We have enough information from the Family Secrets case on about the Outfit that nobody needs to go back to 1997 to argue about the organization in 2020.

[Patrickgold]

They weren’t really off on the numbers. What they did was combine made men with top associates who were not officially made for a variety of reasons but for all purposes were full fledged members of the Outfit. Guys like Schweihs, Bock, Posner to name a few. They just used the term members if I remember correctly and not made members. Remember, even the FBI, with all its info and technology, at that time did not think the Outfit had making ceremonies like the East Coast families. This didn’t come out until Nick Calabrese flipped a couple years later. As for associates, if you actually read the report, it says that they used the estimation that each member had at least 10 associates hence the 70 members and at least 700 associates. And those associates did not mean that they were full time workers for the Outfit. It was a very loose term that could mean a variety of things.

If they said the Outfit had 70 made members and 700-1200 Associates than hell yes they were way off on the numbers considering the Feds had them at 30 members and 100 associates only a decade later. That associate estimate is higher than the estimate for most of the NY families. Again not even close to the relm of possibility.


Pogo

The didn’t say the had 70 made members. I guess you didn’t read what I said. It said they had 70 MEMBERS which was a combination of people formally inducted into the Outfit and top associates like Jarrett, Schweihs, Bock and Posner who were not made. It than used the belief that each member had at least 10 associates.

[Patrickgold]

Funny how your trying to turn this into me being an Outfit fanboy, which is the only real subject that you get off at at night before you go to bed. Going after outfit fanboys!!

Mmm...no, you've done that. You started with a faulty belief about the Outfit and, rather than simply following the evidence, you have since worked backwards trying to support it.

The fact is, this is about you trying to discredit sources that don’t match up with your narrative.

Again, not my narrative. The FBI's narrative. And what the last 20 years show. Quit trying to make this about me.

As I said, what does the CCC report say? That the Outfit is involved in the narcotics trade.

Didn't we just go over this? Regardless of what the report says, it's 23 years old. You've basically sunk your position by even referring to that.

Also, nobody said the Outfit isn't involved in narcotics. What the evidence shows is that Outfit involvement in the drug trade is on a sporadic, inconsistent level by some associates. Not the "deep," "wholesale/importation" level you, Binder, etc. are claiming.

Same goes for it's involvement with street gangs.

Do you think Wayne Johnson pulled that out of his ass? When it comes to Outfit knowledge, this guy actually investigated Outfit guys since the 70s and knew them. So for you to discredit that report is wrong. You sure have a habit of trying to discredited sources that don’t match your narrative. I mean there is an entire Buffalo thread that is 300 plus pages because of you.

There you go again. Do you think if you repeat something long enough it just magically comes true? Not my narrative. What the FBI and other law enforcement say and the indictments show.

That Buffalo thread went as long as it did because people want to believe the same thing about Buffalo that you do about Chicago.

They weren’t really off on the numbers. What they did was combine made men with top associates who were not officially made for a variety of reasons but for all purposes were full fledged members of the Outfit. Guys like Schweihs, Bock, Posner to name a few. They just used the term members if I remember correctly and not made members. Remember, even the FBI, with all its info and technology, at that time did not think the Outfit had making ceremonies like the East Coast families. This didn’t come out until Nick Calabrese flipped a couple years later. As for associates, if you actually read the report, it says that they used the estimation that each member had at least 10 associates hence the 70 members and at least 700 associates. And those associates did not mean that they were full time workers for the Outfit. It was a very loose term that could mean a variety of things.

If they said the Outfit had 70 made members and 700-1200 Associates than hell yes they were way off on the numbers considering the Feds had them at 30 members and 100 associates only a decade later. That associate estimate is higher than the estimate for most of the NY families. Again not even close to the relm of possibility.


Pogo

Yup. And it goes without saying that the most recent info holds the most weight. We have enough information from the Family Secrets case on about the Outfit that nobody needs to go back to 1997 to argue about the organization in 2020.

Oh so this conversation is about the Outfit being involved in drug trafficking currently and not in the 90s? I love it how you try to spin it your way when your entire narrative collapses.

[Pogo The Clown]

The didn’t say the had 70 made members. I guess you didn’t read what I said. It said they had 70 MEMBERS which was a combination of people formally inducted into the Outfit and top associates like Jarrett, Schweihs, Bock and Posner who were not made. It than used the belief that each member had at least 10 associates.

Did it actually say that or is that something you are just assuming they did? Either way their numbers were ridiculously off which sinks the credibility of the report.


Pogo

[Wiseguy]

Oh so this conversation is about the Outfit being involved in drug trafficking currently and not in the 90s? I love it how you try to spin it your way when your entire narrative collapses.

Oh, so we need to go down memory lane already?

The topic of discussion was about Outfit's current involvement in drugs. It started with your claim that the Outfit (or at least the Vena crew) is deeply involved with drugs and gangs. The evidence doesn't support this.

Lacking any recent evidence to support you, you eventually had to go back to a 1997 report where one finds a general, outdated statement about the Outfit's involvement in drugs. If you want to go further back, there are other examples of Outfit people involved in drugs, including under Accardo. But none of that was what we were talking about, was it?

You're the one who is trying to spin out if this by trying to move the goal posts. Unfortunately for you, anyone can just go back and read this thread. Time to give it up.

[Patrickgold]

Oh so this conversation is about the Outfit being involved in drug trafficking currently and not in the 90s? I love it how you try to spin it your way when your entire narrative collapses.

Oh, so we need to go down memory lane already?

The topic of discussion was about Outfit's current involvement in drugs. It started with your claim that the Outfit (or at least the Vena crew) is deeply involved with drugs and gangs. The evidence doesn't support this.

Lacking any recent evidence to support you, you eventually had to go back to a 1997 report where one finds a general, outdated statement about the Outfit's involvement in drugs. If you want to go further back, there are other examples of Outfit people involved in drugs, including under Accardo. But none of that was what we were talking about, was it?

You're the one who is trying to spin out if this by trying to move the goal posts. Unfortunately for you, anyone can just go back and read this thread. Time to give it up.

If you don’t think a report from the CCC that was put together by Wayne Johnson is relevant than I don’t know what to tell you. Not only are many of those Outfit members still alive, many of them are considered to be still active with some in the top administration. Also, there has been Outfit members/associates since the report that have been arrested for drug related offenses that were not even mentioned in the book. I don’t think anybody is saying that the Outfit has taken the Sinaloa connection but to think they are not involved in the narcotics business is blindness

[Patrickgold]

The didn’t say the had 70 made members. I guess you didn’t read what I said. It said they had 70 MEMBERS which was a combination of people formally inducted into the Outfit and top associates like Jarrett, Schweihs, Bock and Posner who were not made. It than used the belief that each member had at least 10 associates.

Did it actually say that or is that something you are just assuming they did? Either way their numbers were ridiculously off which sinks the credibility of the report.


Pogo

Sorry Pogo the clown. I’m going to take Wayne Johnson’s word over yours. Do you want me to post his bio?

[Pogo The Clown]

Great job dodging the question. So I take it you simply made that up about them combining made members with top associates to get to the grossly inflated 70 members figure just like you make up most of what you post. Still no answer for the rediculously over the top figure of 700-1200 associates?


And funny how you are trying to turn this into me vs. Wayne Johnson. When it is the FBI vs. the CCC fantasyland figures.


Pogo

[Patrickgold]

This article is about the guy that Pogo the clown and Wiseguy say is not credible. Wayne Johnson. They said his report is not credible so what does that mean? He’s not credible. But wiseguy and pogo are credible. Unbelievable.

https://www.georgefilenko.com/a-cops-co ... e-johnson/

[Pogo The Clown]

You are dodging agsin.


It is a simple question. Did the report say that it is combining made members and top associate to get to the grossly inflated 70 member figure or did you make it up?


Another question. Do you think the CCC figure of 700-1200 associates is more accurate and credible than the FBIs figure of 100 associates?


Don't dodge or obfuscate.


Pogo

[Confederate]

This article is about the guy that Pogo the clown and Wiseguy say is not credible. Wayne Johnson. They said his report is not credible so what does that mean? He’s not credible. But wiseguy and pogo are credible. Unbelievable.

https://www.georgefilenko.com/a-cops-co ... e-johnson/

Nobody ever said he was completely non credible. The report was just "okay" at best but not nearly as accurate as the F.B.I. There is NO WAY the Outfit went from 70 made guys down to 28 in 10 years. Impossible. There is no way there were 700 to 1200 Associates in 97 and then only 100 Associates 10 years later. Impossible. The things in the report that coincided with the Feds was good. The things that didn't were bad. LOL
Do you understand?? So, since the report was so way off on those numbers, other things are then very questionable. It's not Pogo, Wiseguy & Confederate against the CCC. It is the F.B.I. against the CCC report which is not nearly as accurate. I already explained it. Google the CCC Commission & read about it's origins & function yourself. the CCC is not on the level nor has the resources of the F.B.I. Now do you get it???

[Patrickgold]

This article is about the guy that Pogo the clown and Wiseguy say is not credible. Wayne Johnson. They said his report is not credible so what does that mean? He’s not credible. But wiseguy and pogo are credible. Unbelievable.

https://www.georgefilenko.com/a-cops-co ... e-johnson/

Nobody ever said he was completely non credible. The report was just "okay" at best but not nearly as accurate as the F.B.I. There is NO WAY the Outfit went from 70 made guys down to 28 in 10 years. Impossible. There is no way there were 700 to 1200 Associates in 97 and then only 100 Associates 10 years later. Impossible. The things in the report that coincided with the Feds was good. The things that didn't were bad. LOL
Do you understand?? So, since the report was so way off on those numbers, other things are then very questionable. It's not Pogo, Wiseguy & Confederate against the CCC. It is the F.B.I. against the CCC report which is not nearly as accurate. I already explained it. Google the CCC Commission & read about it's origins & function yourself. the CCC is not on the level nor has the resources of the F.B.I. Now do you get it???

I knew there wouldn’t be an argument about the Outfit without you getting involved. Impossible. Most of what you talk about is already addressed but I can tell you why the 28 number was so low? Any guesses? The FBI got a gift that they had been waiting for for almost 100 years. An actual made guy flipped and told the FBI who was made and who was not. Nick Calabrese, who the FBI didn’t think was more than a gofer for his brother, ended up being a top hit man for the Outfit. The FBI with all its technology and informants didn’t even know to check the bloody glove left at a murder scene 15 years ago for Nick’s DNA. So there you have it. Now we will have to wait for the next Nick Calabrese to flip so they can learn who the new made guys are.

[Pogo The Clown]

I see you are totally dodging my questions again. And you are incorrect. The FBI had member informants in the Outfit long before Calabrese flipped.


Pogo

[Patrickgold]

I see you are totally dodging my questions again. And you are incorrect. The FBI had member informants in the Outfit long before Calabrese flipped.


Pogo

Sorry, it’s hard to answer 3 people at the same time and keep track of it. Did the CCC give the definition of member in its report? No. Did it say a member had to prick his finger and burn a holy card? No. Did it even use the term Made member? No. Did it talk about members that would not be considered made in today’s standard? Yes. For example, Chuck Frankian is talked about running the NW side gambling operations.

Now for your question about the CCC vs the FBI and who is more credible. The FBI’s definition of an associate is different than the CCC. The FBI says 100 associates which for all purposes means hardcore associates that are members of a crew and answer to someone. The CCC’s definition of a associate is more loose and is anyone that knowingly does business with the Outfit. This could be business owners, union members, police officers, etc. they said each member has an estimate of 10 associates. If i remember correctly this is stated in the report. So to answer you question. They are both credible because the term associate is different for each organization.

Now for you statement that the FBI has had Outfit informants before Nick Calabrese. Did anyone say they didn’t? They have. Most were dry snitches that pickEd and chose what info to give. Nick Calabrese was the FIRST MADE member to turn state’s evidence and testify in open court. That is why the FBI was actually able to finally solve an Outfit sanctioned hit and get a list of Made members and associates.