2 Genovese Members and Albanian Associate Charged with Extortion

[OcSleeper]

I wonder if Joseph Celso is related to Genovese associate, Frank Celso who was snagged in that 2016 indictment with Steven Pastore & Robert DeBello.

[B.]

The most recent Colombo consigliere wasn't on any membership lists. Pennisi was totally unknown before he cooperated. Pennisi himself has shared the names of a bunch of previously unknown members and captains. Doesn't mean the FBI wasn't aware of them much earlier, but either way it's not uncommon for new names to surface and doesn't necessarily reflect any change in the mafia landscape.

As far as them "building up", DiLeonardo and Vitale's info indicates they generally operated near the cap through the early 2000s, with the +2 Christmas rule supporting this (it was created to offset imprisoned members and allowed them to exceed their cap). Gotti telling Gigante the Genovese Family had a bunch of open slots to fill is another indication it was common for Families to fill their openings up.

DiLeonardo said it's not hard for them to find people to make, it's the quality of candidates that's questionable. I don't know how much this has changed in the past 20 years but the Bonanno Family has definitely been able to replenish membership since the mid-2000s disaster and you'd think they would have more of a struggle than anyone.

I know Wiseguy takes the FBI's public estimates as definitive membership counts, and I'm glad he keeps track of them, though these estimates sometimes conflict with internal reports on membership and the FBI has never clarified what their formula is for making the public estimates. These estimates are part of the discussion and important, though there are questions about them.

[Amershire_Ed]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Jack Garcia has been stating this exact theory during many of the interviews he’s given over the last year or so. He says the Feds have dropped the ball over the last 15 years and all the families are taking advantage and building up. *shrugs*

I should note this theory came with the caveat that the increased numbers won’t necessarily mean more power for the wiseguys. He says unless they are willing to commit violence at pre-2000 levels, they’ll never get back to where they were…just because the fear isn’t there. But going back to that kinda violence means increased law enforcement scrutiny. Quite the catch 22.

[JohnnyS]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Well we know thanks to the Rubeo tapes that the Genovese books were most likely closed for a period of time but they've opened up again. Carmelo Polito was made sometime in or after 2018. Stephen Gallo is another one who is recently made.

And it's not a wild theory. As GA says the mob dont put a family chart out there for us all to see. They're 100% still inducting guys whether they're inducting enough to keep with the all deaths is another story but they're definitely straightening guys out.

[B.]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Well we know thanks to the Rubeo tapes that the Genovese books were most likely closed for a period of time but they've opened up again. Carmelo Polito was made sometime in or after 2018. Stephen Gallo is another one who is recently made.

Seems the Genovese Family occasionally closes the books on their own. It looks like they did this after the Commission trial, with Gotti commenting on Gigante not replacing deceased members + the early 1990s proposed list LCNBios found has guys you'd think would have been made earlier. I don't know if they stopped making members altogether during that time but def looks like they avoided it.

We know the Colombos were forced to close their books for around a decade because of the 1990s war, but wouldn't surprise me if the Genovese do this on their own to self-regulate.

[Newyorkempire]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Can you stop trying to bait wiseguy. It's just annoying at this point. You've already got it going in 3 other threads, let's leave it out of this one.

No bait. Id be more direct about it if I wanted to hear his stale rhetoric one more time. Just proves yet again, we dont know what we dont know. And it continues to lean towards other families having "sleeper" members in the ranks. Regardless of macro trends or the greatly over advertised and exaggerated demise of the mafia in any city.

[Newyorkempire]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Jack Garcia has been stating this exact theory during many of the interviews he’s given over the last year or so. He says the Feds have dropped the ball over the last 15 years and all the families are taking advantage and building up. *shrugs*

I should note this theory came with the caveat that the increased numbers won’t necessarily mean more power for the wiseguys. He says unless they are willing to commit violence at pre-2000 levels, they’ll never get back to where they were…just because the fear isn’t there. But going back to that kinda violence means increased law enforcement scrutiny. Quite the catch 22.

Although there is still an ample amount of violence. Not so much murder, unless we account for Canada. Which still does add to the fear factor of the Mafia in North America in general

[B.]

Someone's name not being public until an indictment doesn't make them a sleeper.

A sleeper to me is someone who even other members might not be aware of, i.e. the guy who works every day and doesn't preen around like a gangster.

[Newyorkempire]

Someone's name not being public until an indictment doesn't make them a sleeper.

A sleeper to me is someone who even other members might not be aware of.

So essentially no one ever knowing them except for other members and maybe not even them

[Newyorkempire]

That's a bit of a twist, an Albanian going to LCN guys for enforcement work. And Romanello getting personally involved at 84, lol, there's no quit in some of these old guys.

It says he punched the restaurant owner in the face and demanded payment. 84 years old and still throwing hands. Wild.

A real gangster. He brought a big intimidating soldier along with him but smacked the guy around himself anyway! I love it

Classic

[JohnnyS]

How do we explain all these unknown members? Is it possible the mob has been recruiting, inducting and making guys that we dont know about? That would be a wild theory if true

Well we know thanks to the Rubeo tapes that the Genovese books were most likely closed for a period of time but they've opened up again. Carmelo Polito was made sometime in or after 2018. Stephen Gallo is another one who is recently made.

Seems the Genovese Family occasionally closes the books on their own. It looks like they did this after the Commission trial, with Gotti commenting on Gigante not replacing deceased members + the early 1990s proposed list LCNBios found has guys you'd think would have been made earlier. I don't know if they stopped making members altogether during that time but def looks like they avoided it.

We know the Colombos were forced to close their books for around a decade because of the 1990s war, but wouldn't surprise me if the Genovese do this on their own to self-regulate.

Yeah it does seem like they opt to induct guys in waves. In the 90s I think it was like 30 in a two year span then again they inducted a huge amount between 1999-2001.

[Wiseguy]

This really shouldn't need to be explained at this point but it's misleading to refer to a member as "unknown" because they weren't on the forum charts. Unknown to us, yes. Obviously not unknown to law enforcement.

If there are currently about 140 or so names on Pogo's Genovese chart, and recent official estimates have the family at 150-175 members, obviously we don't have every last name on there. Doesn't mean the feds aren't aware of most of them.

It's also important to remember that this is the largest and most secretive family and so you can't automatically look at the West Side and say, "If they have a couple dozen unknown guys, then maybe X family does too." That doesn't work.

[B.]

Some former members in both the US and Sicily have talked about how after they get inducted they are shocked to find out certain guys are members. Those to me could be called sleepers, where associates and people in the neighborhood generally don't know they're a member and even members themselves might not know unless there's a need.

Someone being revealed to the public for the first time doesn't mean they're a sleeper to the FBI or people on the street. There are absolutely sleepers in every Family but being unknown to the public is a non-factor, as they're all supposed to be sleepers to us as outsiders.

[Newyorkempire]

This really shouldn't need to be explained at this point but it's misleading to refer to a member as "unknown" because they weren't on the forum charts. Unknown to us, yes. Obviously not unknown to law enforcement.

If there are currently about 140 or so names on Pogo's Genovese chart, and recent official estimates have the family at 150-175 members, obviously we don't have every last name on there. Doesn't mean the feds aren't aware of most of them.

It's also important to remember that this is the largest and most secretive family and so you can't automatically look at the West Side and say, "If they have a couple dozen unknown guys, then maybe X family does too." That doesn't work.

Why doesnt that work? Again, this is your opinion. Trends prove it is possible. The Mafia is secretive in the first place, the organization in which all families reside. Cherry-picking that it only happens with the Genovese is just that, cherry-picking, hanging on to your opinions in hopes they at some point turn to facts. Again, you want it both ways.

[Newyorkempire]

Some former members in both the US and Sicily have talked about how after they get inducted they are shocked to find out certain guys are members. Those to me could be called sleepers, where associates and people in the neighborhood generally don't know they're a member and even members themselves might not know unless there's a need.

Someone being revealed to the public for the first time doesn't mean they're a sleeper to the FBI or people on the street. There are absolutely sleepers in every Family but being unknown to the public is a non-factor, as they're all supposed to be sleepers to us as outsiders.

I guess it would, again, like every other term used by posters on this forum, what the consensus of the definition is.