I admitted he exaggerates the numbers so your argument about I wanna believe what he says is wrong. Next point capeci gets info from other sources besides an "fbi release" as most journalists do and you take that as gospel recall the amuso argument capeci was your whole foundation so don't give me this FBI release bullshit your trolling and it's obvious. Th Feds won't release who the boss is in Chicago until they're ready to indict but they did recognize vena as the grand Abe boss and they have recognized toots Caruso as Chinatown and according to you cataudella was a top boss so him at UB is also out there. You guys do a great job of proving my points!Pogo The Clown wrote:Wiseguy wrote:Pogo is right. What Scott reports often doesn't match up with the feds. Saying as much isn't trolling. It's sticking to the known facts and not being gullible like certain people who never learn. And I'll believe Scott's Outfit charts when they're verified by other sources or the feds themselves.
Why do I suspect that if Scott had gone to the other extreme and claimed that the Outfit had say only 10-15 made members and was down to 2 Crews that Pete would not be so quick to believe it? Why do I feel that he would be quick to invoke the Feds in that case?
Pete wrote:Agreed he's not perfect but besides exaggerating numbers and things of that nature what leadership has he not been in line with the Feds? See you can't just throw out these general statements if your questioning his information give an example I asked pogo and he confirmed what I said by discussing the numbers exaggerations so I'll ask you what else?
We don't don't know if it is in line or not since the Feds haven't released anything on the administration. The only thing they have released in recent years is that Sarno and Cataudella were the top two guy's. Which goes back to Wiseguy's original point.
Pogo
The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Moderator: Capos
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
I will explain this one more time so you will understand. What Scott says does not match what the Feds say (not even close). The fact that his numbers are almost tripple what the Feds say (plus his many other exaggerations, mistakes and outright eventions) puts all of his other information into question. The only source we have for this Outfit administration is Scott and, as I have pointed out up top, he is just not credible given his previous history. Of course you are quick to believe him since he says what you want to believe.
Pogo
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Dude you keep shifting the argument we were talking about leadership not membership numbers which if you read my posts you would know. I'll move on since this isn't a fair fight because your arguing membership numbers which I already said was inflated and you didn't offer a single word in regards to my statement which showed the leadership offered here matched up with recent releases through indictmentsPogo The Clown wrote:I will explain this one more time so you will understand. What Scott says does not match what the Feds say (not even close). The fact that his numbers are almost tripple what the Feds say (plus his many other exaggerations, mistakes and outright eventions) puts all of his other information into question. The only source we have for this Outfit administration is Scott and, as I have pointed out up top, he is just not credible given his previous history. Of course you are quick to believe him since he says what you want to believe.
Pogo
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
You still can't grasp it. If his membership numbers (not to mention everything else I mentioned) are so far off from what the Feds say then how the hell can his info about the hierarchy be trusted without further corroboration? You get it now?
And no contrary to your repeated assertion the leadership offered here has not matched up with recent releases because nothng has been released in that regard. Show me anywhere where the Feds have identified the Outft's Boss, UnderBoss and the Consiglieri. You can't because they haven't. Scott saying he got it from the Feds is not the same as the Feds saying it themselves.
Pogo
And no contrary to your repeated assertion the leadership offered here has not matched up with recent releases because nothng has been released in that regard. Show me anywhere where the Feds have identified the Outft's Boss, UnderBoss and the Consiglieri. You can't because they haven't. Scott saying he got it from the Feds is not the same as the Feds saying it themselves.
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Re: The Chicago Outfit
Oh, you mean to tell me that the Detroit family doesn't have an official boss, street boss, underboss, consigliere, underconsigliere, consigliere emeritus, and Jewish consigliere?Pogo The Clown wrote:What Scott says the Feds tell him is often very different from what the Feds actually say.
The Feds say Detroit has 29 or 30 made members. Scott says they have 55. The Feds say Chicago has 25-30 made members. Scott says they have up to 80. Anthony Parillo (from NE) is busted as an Associate. Scott says he was the Consiglieri at the time. We have also seen how he has greatly inflated the scope and activity level of places like Detroit, claiming they control what, 25% or 50% (whatever crazy number it was) of the drug trafficking or how his charts are so overly hierarchical that they defy believability.
Pogo
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Not sure why the obvious continually eludes you Pete but Capeci has a much longer and more consistent track record than Scott.Pete wrote:I admitted he exaggerates the numbers so your argument about I wanna believe what he says is wrong. Next point capeci gets info from other sources besides an "fbi release" as most journalists do and you take that as gospel recall the amuso argument capeci was your whole foundation so don't give me this FBI release bullshit your trolling and it's obvious. Th Feds won't release who the boss is in Chicago until they're ready to indict but they did recognize vena as the grand Abe boss and they have recognized toots Caruso as Chinatown and according to you cataudella was a top boss so him at UB is also out there. You guys do a great job of proving my points!
All roads lead to New York.
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Uhh hello mcfly you just said cataudella was identifed as one of the top 2 guys now they never did? Toots Caruso was identified in family secrets as Chinatown boss and vena was identified in the Mandela trial as well as panozzo indictment I follow this close your not gonna slip one by me these are factsPogo The Clown wrote:You still can't grasp it. If his membership numbers (not to mention everything else I mentioned) are so far off from what the Feds say then how the hell can his info about the hierarchy be trusted without further corroboration? You get it now?
And no contrary to your repeated assertion the leadership offered here has not matched up with recent releases because nothng has been released in that regard. Show me anywhere where the Feds have identified the Outft's Boss, UnderBoss and the Consiglieri. You can't because they haven't. Scott saying he got it from the Feds is not the same as the Feds saying it themselves.
Pogo
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
They never identified Cantaudella as the UnderBoss. Only that he and Sarno were running things. If either one of them was the Boss or UnderBoss the Feds would have mentioned it. In fact if I remember right John DiFronzo was mentioned as the UnderBoss in that article. There was also no mention of a Consiglieri or two of the other 4 Crew Bosses. So try again.
Pogo
Pogo
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
I found the article. The latest official info on the leadership of the Outfit from 2011.
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New FBI document details the rise of two mobsters inside the Chicago outfit
On the street, the two friends were known as “Mutt and Jeff,” after the cartoon duo always seen together.
Or “The Corsican Brothers,” after the classic movie where Siamese twins are separated by surgery at birth.
They often ate lunch together on Taylor Street or hung out at the same bar on the Far Northwest Side.
And they live a few blocks from each other in west suburban Westchester.
The men, close as brothers, share another common trait — both have been identified as leaders in what’s left of the Chicago Outfit, possibly even at one time the top bosses, according to a previously secret government court filing obtained by the Sun-Times.
“Mutt” is Michael Sarno, also known, less charitably, as “Fat Mike,” the reputed Cicero mob boss, convicted in December in a Berwyn bombing racketeering trial. He’s now in jail, awaiting sentencing.
“Jeff” is Salvatore Cataudella, convicted in a mob juice loan case in the 1990s along with Sarno but now a free man.
“Whenever you saw one, you saw the other,” said one man familiar with Sarno and Cataudella.
Both men were known as tough, street guys who came up and learned their trade from the same Outfit enforcer. But as young men they didn’t fit the stereotype of the nattily dressed mobster. They always wore sweats and gym shoes, a habit that came under criticism from mob elders, who considered them slobs.
A confidential FBI informant, who felt abandoned by the Outfit and was motivated to talk, told the feds in 2007 that Mutt and Jeff “were the current Outfit bosses in the Chicago area,” according to the previously sealed federal document.
It details the bloody rise of Sarno in the mob, and Cataudella’s alleged supporting role, and provides the most detail yet on the leadership structure of the Chicago Outfit.
The document is an affidavit that was prepared in 2007 by FBI Special Agent Courtenae Trautmann to allow agents to secretly enter a Cicero pawnshop at night and remove shredded documents, including news stories about the Berwyn business bombing. The FBI later reconstructed those shreddings and used them as evidence in the trial of Sarno and his co-defendant who ran the pawn shop, Outlaw motorcycle gangmember Mark Polchan. The shreddings were used to show both men’s interest in the investigation of the bombing, even though neither had been charged at the time.
The affidavit shows at times an Outfit in disarray as disputes over money erupted in violence. The history is based on three confidential informants, including a veteran source who provided information for the last 25 years and is “personally acquainted with numerous top members of the Chicago Outfit.”
Another informant associated with two Outfit crews said the motive to provide information was “because many individuals, including a member of the Chicago Outfit, had abandoned” the informant.
Sarno went from controlling juice loans in Cicero, to picking up street tax on sports bookmakers to rising in the mob as his superiors went to prison or permanently disappeared, according to the affidavit.
The veteran informant noted that Sarno and one superior, Anthony Zizzo, had been involved in a “drawn out feud” over money shortly before Zizzo disappeared in August 2006, never to be seen again.
Zizzo had previously been assigned by mob bosses to straighten out something that Sarno had “f----- up” and that mistake had enraged then Outfit chief James Marcello, according to the veteran informant.
While one informant put Sarno and Cataudella at the top of the Chicago Outfit, another informant advised the FBI that Sarno was still turning over money to reputed Outfit underboss John “No Nose” DiFronzo, also known as “Johnny Bananas.” Another source of information noted that Sarno was higher in the leadership structure and collecting money from reputed 26th Street crew boss Frank “Tootsie Babe” Caruso.
Marcello himself called the two men “Mutt and Jeff” in one jailhouse conversation, secretly recorded for the Family Secrets investigation.
In the 2003 conversation, Marcello was quizzing his half-brother, Michael, on how much money the men were bringing in.
“What’s this Mutt and Jeff? What do they do every month? What, what comes back?” asks James Marcello.
A lawyer who has represented Sarno and Cataudella blasted the allegations in the affidavit.
“It’s nonsensical,” attorney Alexander Salerno said. Salerno said the affidavit “is based on anonymous sources, who are obviously unreliable.” Salerno noted no one has testified under oath at trial to those allegations.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
New FBI document details the rise of two mobsters inside the Chicago outfit
On the street, the two friends were known as “Mutt and Jeff,” after the cartoon duo always seen together.
Or “The Corsican Brothers,” after the classic movie where Siamese twins are separated by surgery at birth.
They often ate lunch together on Taylor Street or hung out at the same bar on the Far Northwest Side.
And they live a few blocks from each other in west suburban Westchester.
The men, close as brothers, share another common trait — both have been identified as leaders in what’s left of the Chicago Outfit, possibly even at one time the top bosses, according to a previously secret government court filing obtained by the Sun-Times.
“Mutt” is Michael Sarno, also known, less charitably, as “Fat Mike,” the reputed Cicero mob boss, convicted in December in a Berwyn bombing racketeering trial. He’s now in jail, awaiting sentencing.
“Jeff” is Salvatore Cataudella, convicted in a mob juice loan case in the 1990s along with Sarno but now a free man.
“Whenever you saw one, you saw the other,” said one man familiar with Sarno and Cataudella.
Both men were known as tough, street guys who came up and learned their trade from the same Outfit enforcer. But as young men they didn’t fit the stereotype of the nattily dressed mobster. They always wore sweats and gym shoes, a habit that came under criticism from mob elders, who considered them slobs.
A confidential FBI informant, who felt abandoned by the Outfit and was motivated to talk, told the feds in 2007 that Mutt and Jeff “were the current Outfit bosses in the Chicago area,” according to the previously sealed federal document.
It details the bloody rise of Sarno in the mob, and Cataudella’s alleged supporting role, and provides the most detail yet on the leadership structure of the Chicago Outfit.
The document is an affidavit that was prepared in 2007 by FBI Special Agent Courtenae Trautmann to allow agents to secretly enter a Cicero pawnshop at night and remove shredded documents, including news stories about the Berwyn business bombing. The FBI later reconstructed those shreddings and used them as evidence in the trial of Sarno and his co-defendant who ran the pawn shop, Outlaw motorcycle gangmember Mark Polchan. The shreddings were used to show both men’s interest in the investigation of the bombing, even though neither had been charged at the time.
The affidavit shows at times an Outfit in disarray as disputes over money erupted in violence. The history is based on three confidential informants, including a veteran source who provided information for the last 25 years and is “personally acquainted with numerous top members of the Chicago Outfit.”
Another informant associated with two Outfit crews said the motive to provide information was “because many individuals, including a member of the Chicago Outfit, had abandoned” the informant.
Sarno went from controlling juice loans in Cicero, to picking up street tax on sports bookmakers to rising in the mob as his superiors went to prison or permanently disappeared, according to the affidavit.
The veteran informant noted that Sarno and one superior, Anthony Zizzo, had been involved in a “drawn out feud” over money shortly before Zizzo disappeared in August 2006, never to be seen again.
Zizzo had previously been assigned by mob bosses to straighten out something that Sarno had “f----- up” and that mistake had enraged then Outfit chief James Marcello, according to the veteran informant.
While one informant put Sarno and Cataudella at the top of the Chicago Outfit, another informant advised the FBI that Sarno was still turning over money to reputed Outfit underboss John “No Nose” DiFronzo, also known as “Johnny Bananas.” Another source of information noted that Sarno was higher in the leadership structure and collecting money from reputed 26th Street crew boss Frank “Tootsie Babe” Caruso.
Marcello himself called the two men “Mutt and Jeff” in one jailhouse conversation, secretly recorded for the Family Secrets investigation.
In the 2003 conversation, Marcello was quizzing his half-brother, Michael, on how much money the men were bringing in.
“What’s this Mutt and Jeff? What do they do every month? What, what comes back?” asks James Marcello.
A lawyer who has represented Sarno and Cataudella blasted the allegations in the affidavit.
“It’s nonsensical,” attorney Alexander Salerno said. Salerno said the affidavit “is based on anonymous sources, who are obviously unreliable.” Salerno noted no one has testified under oath at trial to those allegations.
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
John difrinzo hasn't been identified as the underboss since 92 with comments like that I'm not sure why I'm even debating this it can't be more obvious you don't know what your talking aboutPogo The Clown wrote:They never identified Cantaudella as the UnderBoss. Only that he and Sarno were running things. If either one of them was the Boss or UnderBoss the Feds would have mentioned it. In fact if I remember right John DiFronzo was mentioned as the UnderBoss in that article. There was also no mention of a Consiglieri or two of the other 4 Crew Bosses. So try again.
Pogo
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
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Pogo The Clown
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Pete wrote:John difrinzo hasn't been identified as the underboss since 92 with comments like that I'm not sure why I'm even debating this it can't be more obvious you don't know what your talking about
Reading is fundamental.
Pogo The Clown wrote:While one informant put Sarno and Cataudella at the top of the Chicago Outfit, another informant advised the FBI that Sarno was still turning over money to reputed Outfit underboss John “No Nose” DiFronzo, also known as “Johnny Bananas.”
It's a new morning in America... fresh, vital. The old cynicism is gone. We have faith in our leaders. We're optimistic as to what becomes of it all. It really boils down to our ability to accept. We don't need pessimism. There are no limits.
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Angelo Santino
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Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
Say what you will about Scott, all those names existed.
Do we have a list of confirmed made members? As well as suspected?
Do we have a list of confirmed made members? As well as suspected?
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
If you believe difronzo was the underboss recently because some article said so I got a bridge I can sell youPogo The Clown wrote:Pete wrote:John difrinzo hasn't been identified as the underboss since 92 with comments like that I'm not sure why I'm even debating this it can't be more obvious you don't know what your talking about
Reading is fundamental.
Pogo The Clown wrote:While one informant put Sarno and Cataudella at the top of the Chicago Outfit, another informant advised the FBI that Sarno was still turning over money to reputed Outfit underboss John “No Nose” DiFronzo, also known as “Johnny Bananas.”
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
I don't think the Feds ever released their list of made guys so beyond the ones identified in the 83 and 88 ceremonies we can only speculate. That list of 40 or so guys snake put in the other thread is a good starting point now all those guys might not all be made and they're may be made guys not on the list but it's certainly a who's who of the outfitChris Christie wrote:Say what you will about Scott, all those names existed.
Do we have a list of confirmed made members? As well as suspected?
I agree with phat,I love those old fucks and he's right.we all got some cosa nostra in us.I personnely love the life.I think we on the forum would be the ultimate crew! - camerono
Re: The Chicago Outfit (discussion)
You guys might be interested in these, if you haven't seen them already:
Appeal of US v Volpendesto, Polchan and Sarno: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-c ... 1656-0.pdf
Blog from a juror on the Family Secrets trial: http://www.mom-mom-mom.com/family-secrets-mini-series/
Appeal of US v Volpendesto, Polchan and Sarno: http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-c ... 1656-0.pdf
Blog from a juror on the Family Secrets trial: http://www.mom-mom-mom.com/family-secrets-mini-series/