According to Gene Borrello Blood and crip gang members love Italian mob guys

[CabriniGreen]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

[PolackTony]

Yeah, the 'mafioso' rap was a big deal in the 90s. Even mainstream guys like Jay-Z had the mafia references. I think it started around Gotti's trials with Kool G Rap, the 'G' stands for GIancana, lol. I think the younger gang bangers these days don't give a fuck about worshiping guys like Vinny Asaro with his cheap sweaters. Most of them are too young to remember the Cosa Nostra glamorization, the 24/7 mob news, the good Scorsese movies, Joe Pesci smoking a cigar with Letterman, etc. There's still respect for the mob, but it's far from what it was in the 80s and 90s. Probably on par with black gangsters like Maserati Rick from Detroit, Big Meech from Atlanta, etc. What's funny is that all these older gangsters were heavily influenced by the mob and attempted to replicate the organizational structure.

I think you're right to point to the Gotti trials as setting the stage culturally for the mafioso rapper era. And I do think Kool G Rap probably provided some of the first overt mafia references in hip hop, mentioning Pacino and that iconic Maserati/Gotti line. But I don't recall G Rap saying the Giancana stuff until his 2002 album, don't remember any of that on his albums with DJ Polo.

I'd really give the credit of course to Raekwon/Ghost. Only Built For Cuban Linx was the apogee of mafioso Rap, to the point of reinventing a whole new "Wu-Gambinos" persona. What's notable too is that Rae and Ghost are of course from SI. Not that you have Italian social clubs in the middle of the Stapleton Houses, but they had a proximity to the remaining center of Italian-American New York life unlike rappers from Harlem, Bed Stuy, etc.

[PolackTony]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

[CabriniGreen]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

[CabriniGreen]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

Forgot one, before 624, we lived at 1230 N Larrabee... Division and Larrabee basically, exactly where the Target is now...

[PolackTony]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

I visited both the Reds and Whites a couple of times back in the early 90s, don't remember the building numbers (the last white building down by Division and Halsted and one of the red buildings by Clybourn next to the big "Cabrini Green" gate sign). I been to a number of rough PJs in NYC (Harlem and the Bx mostly) but I ain't never seen nothing like the old CHA projects (also visited some buildings in Robert Taylor and the Ida B's). Projects here are like freaking luxury high rises by comparison!

[CabriniGreen]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

I visited both the Reds and Whites a couple of times back in the early 90s, don't remember the building numbers (the last white building down by Division and Halsted and one of the red buildings by Clybourn next to the big "Cabrini Green" gate sign). I been to a number of rough PJs in NYC (Harlem and the Bx mostly) but I ain't never seen nothing like the old CHA projects (also visited some buildings in Robert Taylor and the Ida B's). Projects here are like freaking luxury high rises by comparison!

714.... the gold mine.... I had family in both those... Ida b Wells and Robert Taylor's, I spent a week with an Aunt in the Robert Taylor's, the " Hole", I think it was called......

[PolackTony]

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

I visited both the Reds and Whites a couple of times back in the early 90s, don't remember the building numbers (the last white building down by Division and Halsted and one of the red buildings by Clybourn next to the big "Cabrini Green" gate sign). I been to a number of rough PJs in NYC (Harlem and the Bx mostly) but I ain't never seen nothing like the old CHA projects (also visited some buildings in Robert Taylor and the Ida B's). Projects here are like freaking luxury high rises by comparison!

714.... the gold mine.... I had family in both those... Ida b Wells and Robert Taylor's, I spent a week with an Aunt in the Robert Taylor's, the " Hole", I think it was called......

IIRC correctly "The Hole" referred specially to the Robert Taylor buildings controlled by the Mickey Cobras. The guys I knew there were GDs so I most definitely did not visit "The Hole" lol.

[CabriniGreen]

9461ad519cbb24ef2ad7cc25d7ce8883.jpg

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

I visited both the Reds and Whites a couple of times back in the early 90s, don't remember the building numbers (the last white building down by Division and Halsted and one of the red buildings by Clybourn next to the big "Cabrini Green" gate sign). I been to a number of rough PJs in NYC (Harlem and the Bx mostly) but I ain't never seen nothing like the old CHA projects (also visited some buildings in Robert Taylor and the Ida B's). Projects here are like freaking luxury high rises by comparison!

Chicago_Cabrini_Green_whites.jpg

[CabriniGreen]

The NightFall cat I believe.....


https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html

[PolackTony]

9461ad519cbb24ef2ad7cc25d7ce8883.jpg

I would take it further.... they love the image of the successful outlaw.... kinda like modern day cowboys to them......

Like take Escobar, Chapo, or Scarface. Many gangbangers have idolized their image. However, I dont think 90-95% of them ever think in terms of emulating "Italian", "Cuban", or " Mexican" culture, so much as they just love the IMAGE of a rich gangster who did it his way.

I mean, look at Biggie. He called himself Frank White. Frank White wasnt even REAL, he was a fictional character from a gangster movie about a White guy, with an all black crew, who was like a benevolent terror in NY. Biggie didnt want to be a white guy, lol.. But he LOVED that image, THE King Of New York, fuckin a City councilwoman, running the streets, donating money for a hospital in the hood, taking out rivals mercilessly........


It's why you see other ethnicities emulate rap.... They dont really want to be " Black", (maybe some) not neccesarily...... but they gravitate towards that image, of the the kid who came from nothing and made a way in the streets.....

@ Eboli

Lol, you are correct, it DID start with G Rap, blame Raekwon for setting the trend everyone followed.......

The Outlaw imagery is abosuletely the heart of it. For guys like Raekwon, Italian wiseguys maybe weren't just something from the movies. But for most rappers they would've had little to no actual Italian cultural reference points, just the successful outlaw image on the screen. The Tony Montana meme has been way more prevalent and enduring in rap then actual mafia references (guys named something-something-Gotti notwithstanding). I mean, the fact that Pacino was in Scarface and in mob movies just further helped to cement all of these images as variants of the "successful gangster" archetype that you touched on.

Hey, Cabrini -- you from the Reds, Whites, or Rowhouses?

Whites, 624 W Division, then 1340 with an Aunt, then back to 24, then back to 1340, then 660 W Division......

I visited both the Reds and Whites a couple of times back in the early 90s, don't remember the building numbers (the last white building down by Division and Halsted and one of the red buildings by Clybourn next to the big "Cabrini Green" gate sign). I been to a number of rough PJs in NYC (Harlem and the Bx mostly) but I ain't never seen nothing like the old CHA projects (also visited some buildings in Robert Taylor and the Ida B's). Projects here are like freaking luxury high rises by comparison!

Chicago_Cabrini_Green_whites.jpg

The building in the Whites I visited was definitely 714. I remember hearing dudes talk about "Tha Carter" though.

Up until then the only time I had ever seen the interior of a CHA high rise was in the film "Candyman". That shit was bugged the fuck out. I grew up on the Westside and I'd seen plenty of wolf hood shit but still never seen anything that compares to the CHA in those days.

[Jbravo]

Its pretty obvious hip hop artiststs talking with there hands and gold chains... what do you think they got that from...thats old news

[RI_Guy]

Once upon a time about 20 years ago I was in the nightclub business in the DMV area, as it happened I did business with a few JBM guys. Im not a wiseguy or involved with this thing at all but I can tell you being Italian helped in business with them, they love italians, also they think we aren't white for some reason lol so I'm sure that helps. Also basically had to hire all bloods as security to keep the peace, but it was the same with them, they love italians, but these guys were all from a different generation, im talking they are mid 30s and up at this point. The new generation of blacks doesn't give a fuck, they are the ones that force your hand. Downward trend all around

[CabriniGreen]

Once upon a time about 20 years ago I was in the nightclub business in the DMV area, as it happened I did business with a few JBM guys. Im not a wiseguy or involved with this thing at all but I can tell you being Italian helped in business with them, they love italians, also they think we aren't white for some reason lol so I'm sure that helps. Also basically had to hire all bloods as security to keep the peace, but it was the same with them, they love italians, but these guys were all from a different generation, im talking they are mid 30s and up at this point. The new generation of blacks doesn't give a fuck, they are the ones that force your hand. Downward trend all around

That was one of the most interesting Soprano scenes to me.... when Tony referred to Cusimano as a " White guy", and Melfi was like, " Your not white?". And Tony's like, " I mean a WHITE MAN!!", LOL that shit was classic. One could do a deep dive just on the psychology of that interaction.....

[PolackTony]

Once upon a time about 20 years ago I was in the nightclub business in the DMV area, as it happened I did business with a few JBM guys. Im not a wiseguy or involved with this thing at all but I can tell you being Italian helped in business with them, they love italians, also they think we aren't white for some reason lol so I'm sure that helps. Also basically had to hire all bloods as security to keep the peace, but it was the same with them, they love italians, but these guys were all from a different generation, im talking they are mid 30s and up at this point. The new generation of blacks doesn't give a fuck, they are the ones that force your hand. Downward trend all around

That was one of the most interesting Soprano scenes to me.... when Tony referred to Cusimano as a " White guy", and Melfi was like, " Your not white?". And Tony's like, " I mean a WHITE MAN!!", LOL that shit was classic. One could do a deep dive just on the psychology of that interaction.....

I knew Italian kids growing up in Chicago who didn't consider themselves "white". When asked what their "race" was they'd reply "Italian". I remember explicitly asking some kids if Italians weren't "white", and if not what "race" they belonged to, and the reply was "We're just Italian. That's it".

There were people who didn't think the Polish were really "white" either. At least, not in the way that the people we saw on TV were "white". For those who thought this way -- generally working class people living in what was left of Chicago's old blue collar ethnic neighborhoods -- the real "whites" were deracinated people who lived in middle class suburbs and had assimilated to the norms of WASP American culture.

One of the main themes that the Sopranos grappled with was the problem of the tensions between an "authentic" Italian American identity -- formed through exclusion from the American mainstream and concentration in ethnic enclaves -- and the inexorable forces of assimilation. I agree that this one statement from Tony packed A LOT into a few words, one of many examples of the show's deft and powerful writing.