Experts! Please Help Explain This to Me

[mafiastudent]

And in that vein, Frank Cali was never proved in a court of law to be the boss of anything. It is an assumption on the part of law enforcement. So, why should he be tagged that way?

[Confederate]

And an article about media bias to prove my point:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -courtroom

I think in a lot of cases they ask jurors if they have read about the defendant in the news, or have any preconceived notions about the Mafia. In Vinny Asaro's trial, I believe they asked jurors if they had seen Goodfellas, and it was therefore very hard to find potential jurors who hadn't. Of course, this isn't really a foolproof method since jurors can always lie, but it's something.

So, basically, it's impossible for these "mafia" guys to get a fair trial because everyone has preconceived notions about what and who they are.

Wrong. Not everyone has preconceived notions every time. John Gotti wasn't convicted several times before they finally got him. It's not like Gotti went to Trial the FIRST time and then got convicted. That why he was called "The Teflon Don". The Feds spend years working on a Indictment so they can get a conviction. It's not automatic just because it is "alleged" that a person is a possible Mafia member.

[mafiastudent]

And an article about media bias to prove my point:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... -courtroom

I think in a lot of cases they ask jurors if they have read about the defendant in the news, or have any preconceived notions about the Mafia. In Vinny Asaro's trial, I believe they asked jurors if they had seen Goodfellas, and it was therefore very hard to find potential jurors who hadn't. Of course, this isn't really a foolproof method since jurors can always lie, but it's something.

So, basically, it's impossible for these "mafia" guys to get a fair trial because everyone has preconceived notions about what and who they are.

Wrong. Not everyone has preconceived notions every time. John Gotti wasn't convicted several times before they finally got him. It's not like Gotti went to Trial the FIRST time and then got convicted. That why he was called "The Teflon Don". The Feds spend years working on a Indictment so they can get a conviction. It's not automatic just because it is "alleged" that a person is a possible Mafia member.

Is Gotti a good example though? Because, and correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the jurors in those early trials paid off by Gravano? So, who's really to say how it would have turned out.

[chin_gigante]

I disagree that the headline is clickbait. It's more sensationalist than 'man accused of staten island murder goes on trial' but it's an accurate summary of the case against Comello. (Though I would make the case that 'mob boss' is clickbait-y, one could argue it's used to convey, in layman's terms, Cali's status as an organised crime leader).
'Young man' is an accurate description of Cali and he's also referred to as an accused killer, so it doesn't have the effect of making him appear more sympathetic. Cali's LCN membership is also relevant to the background of the case, accurate - proven when he was prosecuted in 2008 - and in the public domain.
Seeing as the Cali murder occured out in public and made headlines worldwide, it's not hard to argue that Cali's status is a matter of public interest as well as being more beneficial for the press to reach more readers.
While there will ultimately be bias on some level in every news outlet (on the level of the individual, editorial stance, algorithmically...), here the headline is a fair and accurate summary of the case.
On the wider point of jurors being biased against accused members of organised crime - that is true. However, jury selection is a rigorous process designed to minimise both pre-existing bias and any press influence. Jurors are biased against mobsters, but they're arguably equally biased against co-operating witnesses - so bias works both for the government and against it (see the cases against Cammarano Jr last year and Joe Ligambi in Philadelphia). It's not impossible for mob guys to get fair trials.

[Pogo The Clown]

So, then explain to me why this is possible -- using what you stated above? If there is a presumption of innocence, why is the federal government on an indictment basically saying these guys are "members and associates" of a group before they even go to trial. This is the indictment stage. They're being accused. So what's the difference?

Seven Members and Associates of the Gambino and Bonanno Crime Families Indicted for Racketeering and Related Charges

https://www.justice.gov/usao-edny/pr/se ... cketeering

You missed this part that is included in every indictment.


"The charges contained in the indictment are merely allegations, and the defendants are presumed innocent unless and until proven guilty."

And in that vein, Frank Cali was never proved in a court of law to be the boss of anything. It is an assumption on the part of law enforcement. So, why should he be tagged that way?

Actually he was. He pled guilty in his 2008 Indictment to being a member and leader in the Gambino family.


But let's be honest. You only care about this because it is a Mafia member. If Comello had plugged some Russian Mob Boss, some Cartel Boss or some Crip Boss you wouldn't give a shit what any headline would have said. It is only because you romanticize the Mafia that you are posting this.


Pogo

[mafiastudent]

The part you speak of is included WAY at the bottom in very small type.

[Pogo The Clown]

It is not in a "very small type". It is the same font as the rest of the indictment and is plainly visible in every indictment after the charges are listed.


Pogo

[mafiastudent]

Then why don't they put it at the top instead of the bottom. Why not make that clear in the very beginning instead of laying out the charges and then say, oh, by the way....

[Pogo The Clown]

I guess it's a conspiracy to frame these poor persecuted mobsters.


Pogo

[mafiastudent]

Also, where is it stated that Frank Cali said he was a "leader" in an organization?

[mafiastudent]

I guess it's a conspiracy to frame these poor persecuted mobsters.


Pogo

Not a conspiracy, but a concerted effort by the prosecution to paint a picture of guilt before the trial even begins.

[SonnyBlackstein]

In your first post you’re arguing AGAINST headlines with simple descriptors and FOR colourful adjectives (‘young man’ bad, ‘psychopathic killer’ good), now you’re arguing FOR simple descriptors and against adjectives (‘why are they referred to as Gambino members?’)!

You clearly don’t have an argument. Ridiculous thread.

[Lupara]

Cali was a documented mob member and Comello killed him, because the murder was caught on tape. Both are facts.

I agree that 'young man' has a positive undertone. A more fitting headline would be "moron killed Gambino underboss".

[gohnjotti]

In your first post you’re arguing AGAINST headlines with simple descriptors and FOR colourful adjectives (‘young man’ bad, ‘psychopathic killer’ good), now you’re arguing FOR simple descriptors and against adjectives (‘why are they referred to as Gambino members?’)!

You clearly don’t have an argument. Ridiculous thread.

[mafiastudent]

In your first post you’re arguing AGAINST headlines with simple descriptors and FOR colourful adjectives (‘young man’ bad, ‘psychopathic killer’ good), now you’re arguing FOR simple descriptors and against adjectives (‘why are they referred to as Gambino members?’)!

You clearly don’t have an argument. Ridiculous thread.

What I'm arguing is that the headline isn't fair. Say "Suspected Killer" Don't paint him as a "young man" and then use "Gambino boss" (which, there is no proof of that. Was he a member, okay, he was convicted in 2008. But boss? LE theory). So say it as it is.

In addition, have some compassion. This man was brutally murdered in front of his home - in front of his wife and children. Show a level of humanity as you would someone else who wasn't an alleged "member" of "organized crime".